cross-posted from: piefed.world/post/612204
Difficulty settings are accessibility settings and anyone who disagrees can kiss my ass.
Three developers' different philosophies on difficulty for their games
Submitted 20 hours ago by FoxtrotDeltaTango@sh.itjust.works to [deleted]
https://media.piefed.world/posts/1x/zQ/1xzQKtGfRQP2278.jpg
Comments
BryceBassitt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 6 hours ago
TORFdot0@lemmy.world 5 hours ago
As long as the setting accommodates everyone, including people who want a difficult game
Squirrelanna@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 hour ago
Yeah that’s the point at least in my eyes. I don’t see why it has to be one way or the other. You have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain from difficulty accessibility options. If someone sees difficulty as some sort of status symbol… Well, don’t project that onto me.
YiddishMcSquidish@lemmy.today 4 hours ago
This is why I didn’t finish CO:E33. I’m a from soft fanboy. I have beaten everything they made other than king’s field. I head into brick walled the first optional boss after the intro. But it got way too inconsistent about halfway through. So I switched it to easy and it was just incredibly too easy so I lost interest. Wish they had something in between.
But yeah, if a game is too easy it doesn’t captivate me.
panda_abyss@lemmy.ca 19 hours ago
Both are perfectly acceptable philosophies, but many Souls players need to learn that losing at a game for 150 hours is not what other people find fun.
yakko@feddit.uk 18 hours ago
The difficulty slider is intrinsic to the system and the world. The whole point is that you have to make it easier by engaging with it on its own terms, rather than by forcing a change upon the world to make it suit you. This is never made explicit; the creator just wants you to either dig deep or bounce off it because struggle is the whole point or something, which is why we have to talk about it forever. Blah
TheYojimbo@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
Most of us get that, but non souls player must also understand that dark souls on easy mode is just a bad game. There are no big cinematics, the story is scarce, there are only a few npcs. Those are games that puts you on your toes, you must be wary at all times, and learn to master the game bit by bit. It’s not for everyone, or everytime (I think everyone can play souls game but they need to be in the right mindset) but they are my favorite games. But yeah gatekeepers suck
jdr@lemmy.ml 9 hours ago
You’re making the game on easy sound pretty good to me.
architect@thelemmy.club 10 hours ago
Gatekeepers make things good by keeping those who aren’t serious out.
Sanguine@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 hours ago
Idk if soul players need to learn anything. Not your style of game thats fine, but all fights in souls games are fair in the sense that anyone can eventually beat it with practice, or overleveling, or innate skill (those who have, ahem, gotten good), and any combination of the three.
Have known a lot of people who played dark souls at a time in their life where they needed the lesson of getting up after getting knocked down.
FantasmaNaCasca@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
I have that shit in real life. (Being taken down and having to get back up)
I work. I have to take care of the house/family. I had a leukemia…and I DID fucking rise up again from the dead…literally. With 3 prosthesis after, but hey, its just means im in a different game now (cyberpunk)
But we are talking about fucking games.
I am not a teenager with the time. Or patience. Those are both used on real life…you know…the bigger game. The real game.
I’m Not saying you can’t have the difficulty in your…playthings.
I am saying that there are people who want to play the games you like, they are great fucking games, but we just don’t have the time and energy to waste a few hours in the same fucking level/battle.
And that’s the conversation: Having the possibility to change difficulty. That exists. It’s not impossible.
You do you. No one is robing you of your experience.
Its just a shame…the gatekeeping.
tomi000@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
Why? Do Souls players not accept others not liking the games? Thats not my experience but maybe many are like that?
Also, usually Souls players dont lose for 150 hours straight. Most of the time its winning, but sometimes youre set back a bit and sometimes youre stuck. Some people like earning their wins. Some cant handle the difficulty and get frustrated, I get thats not fun for them. To each their own.
hakase@lemmy.zip 10 hours ago
Yeah, the position of most FromSoft players in my experience is: “You don’t have to like the games, but you can’t just demand that they change for you.”
rockerface@lemmy.cafe 16 hours ago
The difficulty slider in Souls games is how many levels you’ve invested into health
Blackmist@feddit.uk 16 hours ago
You often can’t do that until you’ve made a little bit of progress. The real difficulty curve early on is knowing that picking the heavy armour class will make things much harder for yourself, that the real progression is knowledge of enemy attacks and opening shortcuts, and that losing your currency when you don’t have enough points to reach the next level isn’t really a big deal.
architect@thelemmy.club 10 hours ago
Gamers are so entitled they will argue with other gamers on matters of taste. “That game is not to my specifications! Instead of finding one that is I’ll complain until the game is changed! People that like it the old way need to know i have a job!”
Zizzy@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 hours ago
Why does everyone think every game has to be made for the lowest common denominator? If you don’t like a game, don’t play it. Besides, souls games can actually be quite forgiving, the difficulty adjustments just isnt in sliders. Especially in elden ring, you can beat every fight in a pretty brainless (i mean like not needing to dodge almost at all) way if you take the time to set up for it.
panda_abyss@lemmy.ca 9 hours ago
I tried Dark Souls and I tried Demon Souls.
It’s not my thing, but I’m glad they are a lot of other people’s cup of tea
DonkeyStar@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
There’s a lot of “you made your art wrong” in here. If you don’t have legs, you’re not going to be able to play soccer. You can make your own no-leg soccer if you want, but I’m just going to make an “ew” face at you if you say that soccer needs to change for you. Try arm wrestling!
The best argument against games (or any software) that don’t work for you is that you often can’t get refunds, and that’s a valid concern, but it has nothing to do with the content itself.
Apytele@sh.itjust.works 1 hour ago
A nonverbal person joined one of hubs Delta green games and he accommodated it but was confused as to why they didn’t just join one of the text chat based games on the same server. His theory is they were just used to getting whatever they wanted because they then proceeded to insist on playing a shadowrun character until they just kind of broke down that it wasn’t working with the game and ghosted.
HatchetHaro@pawb.social 10 hours ago
Celeste did it perfectly imho with their Assist Mode. Just add those difficulty options in for accessibility, with a warning that it is not how the developers intend for it to be played.
“Celeste is intended to be a challenging and rewarding experience. If the default game proves inaccessible to you, we hope that you can still find that experience with Assist Mode.”
OccamsTeapot@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 hours ago
Exactly. I love Souls games but I think having an option somewhere for people that need it wouldn’t ruin the intended experience. Especially if there’s a disclaimer before you choose it.
I’m not mad they don’t have it or anything. But like, shouldn’t there be a way to play if you literally can’t otherwise?
lastlybutfirstly@lemmy.world 5 hours ago
The first philosophy is why so many modern AAA games are complete crap. Why not just have FMV of the actors doing the scene and have the audience press X to continue to the next scene?
farmgineer@nord.pub 18 hours ago
I’m not paying for a game that doesn’t allow changing difficulty if I want/need. I work two jobs and have to do most home cleaning and maintenance. I used to game competitively back in the early 2000s, but I don’t have time for that shit nor gatekeeping.
Frenchgeek@lemmy.ml 17 hours ago
Good news: Dwarf fortress is free.
regdog@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
Strike the earth!
JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.blahaj.zone 16 hours ago
Is it still available for free? I kinda assumed once it went up on steam it wouldn’t be.
realitista@lemmus.org 13 hours ago
Yeah I wasted money on 2 soulslikes before I realized it. Now I avoid them like the plague.
ashenone@lemmy.ml 8 hours ago
All art should have difficulty sliders. I want to listen to avant-garde jazz but I think it should be in 4/4 time signature and they should play the most melodic notes. And I think art house movies should have a version where the script is rewritten so the characters explain the allegories and symbolism of the movie while I’m watching. And I think opera should have someone reading what is being sung because I find it hard to follow along with the singing
Squirrelanna@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 hour ago
Now imagine there’s a song that comes out that you like the themes of. It’s catchy, it hits your buttons just right. One problem: When you play the song, it turns your volume to maximum. Others insist that max volume is part of the artistic intent. You just need to keep on listening at max volume over and over until you can appreciate it. If you could listen to it at a lower volume, it would be a lesser experience. Why? You don’t see what this specific volume has to do with the things you enjoy about the song. People can listen to it at max volume, but there’s plenty of people who would rather listen at the volume they choose. Why not allow for a volume slider?
ashenone@lemmy.ml 1 hour ago
There’s plenty of music that I can’t connect with for one reason or another. I don’t demand artists make music I enjoy, I go out and find artists I enjoy and listen to their music. If an artist made a song that somehow turned the volume up to full everytime I put it on, that is their right as the artist to make regardless of whether or no I or anyone else enjoyed it. I fucking can’t stand country music, so I simply listen to other music. If I demanded all country musicians made music I enjoy, I wouldn’t expect anyone on earth to respect my requests because it’s not a respectable request. There are many other devs out there making games with plenty of difficulty adjustments. You should play those games.
starman2112@sh.itjust.works 6 hours ago
I mean we literally do have accessibility settings for most art lmao what do you think subtitles and sign language interpreters are
ashenone@lemmy.ml 6 hours ago
Sure and we have subtitles in Fromsoft games so it’s all good right?
DudleyMason@lemmy.ml 7 hours ago
Everyone who is opposed to difficulty sliders should be forced to spend 200 hours on each game using a controller that simulates dyspraxia by randomly adjusting every movement of the sticks by a random degree and lagging every button press by a few microseconds before they’re allowed to play it normally.
Add an additional 400 hours if they also say smug shit like this when pretending their ableism and elitism are just devotion to artistic integrity.
The devs who make games without difficulty sliders should never get their undoctored controllers back.
DonkeyStar@lemmy.world 2 hours ago
That seems like a lot more work than just trying a new hobby.
ashenone@lemmy.ml 7 hours ago
We should abolish all art since there will always be someone with a disability who isn’t able to enjoy it.
TORFdot0@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
If someone wants to gate their game to people who can handle the level of difficulty, that’s their choice. There are plenty of developers who are willing to be accommodating, to get hung up on games that don’t
vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 6 hours ago
Personally I oppose difficulty sliders because I think they are overly broad and stupid, looking at you Bethesda and your lowsy ass health bar padding. Give me more zomboid and owlcat style difficulty setting where I can customize them in all minutiae.
But no seriously fuck difficulty sliders cause 9/10 they do overly broad gameplay things that some of which I may not want. This is coming from a guy who beat Boltgun on its hardest difficulty with the clown vomit filter so it’s not like I can’t enjoy ulta hard difficulty but what some consider ultra hard I may consider annoying as fuck see yet again Bethesda health bar padding. I do like NV 4s hardcore/survival mode though.
Alkali@lemmy.ml 7 hours ago
I know this is just a joke, but art should have a difficulty slider when possible if it will require active participation by the audience. Otherwise, it is just excluding people and essentially gatekeeping. Even art house movies and have subtitles, and music is often translated to text or sign.
ashenone@lemmy.ml 7 hours ago
Disagree. There are plenty of games out there that try to cater to the widest base possible, plenty of games with a bunch of difficulty sliders and adjustments. From should be able to make their art without having to cater to every single person.
Even art house movies and have subtitles, and music is often translated to text or sign.
That was not my argument. My argument was art movies should explicitly spell out the meanings and symbolism in their movie via dialogues so I don’t have to do it myself. Avant-garde jazz musicians should make albums in popular time signatures and be more melodious. Otherwise people are excluded from enjoying those art forms
mechoman444@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
Making a game hard for the sake of making it hard is a cheap way to increase difficulty.
The challenge shouldn’t come from enemies being damage sponges or the AI having superhuman reaction times. It should come from player skill.
Balatro is one of the best examples of this. The game naturally gets easier as the player learns its systems and gains experience through playing.
Destiny 2 also had excellent skill progression. Say what you want about the game as a whole, but the core gunplay and the mechanics of its three classes rewarded players for improving their own abilities.
Even games like Madden and NBA 2K have, to a lesser extent, systems that reward player skill rather than simply inflating difficulty.
Many older games were made extremely difficult because they were relatively short. The increased difficulty extended playtime and made players feel they were getting more value for the price. That’s one of the reasons games like Ninja Gaiden on the NES earned their reputation for being brutally hard.
As for Soulslike games, they’re simply not my cup of tea. I fully acknowledge that they’re well-made games, and if you enjoy them, that’s great. They’re intentionally designed to be challenging. While the original Dark Souls was developed under a tight schedule and has some rough edges, its high level of difficulty was a deliberate design choice rather than the result of bugs or glitches.
TORFdot0@lemmy.world 5 hours ago
Making enemies soak up more damage and deal more damage is lazy difficulty. Giving enemies more tools to use against the player is the better way to handle game difficulty IMO
VitoRobles@lemmy.today 6 hours ago
Sekiro was my first Souls-like and honestly, it’s way too hard. There are moments in the game that lock you out UNTIL you defeat a boss. I even got the mod where it makes you near invincible, and I still struggled to fight bosses. Delivery and world was awesome, gameplay was impossible for people like me.
Then I played Elden Ring where you can literally be over-level. I was getting beat up in one zone, then moved to another area. When I returned, I was better equipped/more powerful/better as a player.
That to me is the perfect balance. Lemme go wander and git gud (by overleveling or finding useful items that make the bosses easier). Every game should allow the player to beat a boss with skill, or plow through them through cheesing/overleveling.
DonkeyStar@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
Sekiro bothered me, too, and I played all the Souls games. I got to the boss that wants you to jump and redirect lightning, and I stopped. I understand the philosophy behind making bosses unique, but it’s basically a QTE without the button prompt on the screen, and that’s not what I wanted from From. Also that weird fog that wants you to use consumables. I don’t do consumables.
starman2112@sh.itjust.works 6 hours ago
Difficulty options aren’t there to offer different experiences with a game, they’re there to offer the same experience to players of different skill levels. People who are better at Dark Souls are playing it and its clones at a reduced difficulty compared to people who are worse at it.
cyberpunk007@lemmy.ca 6 hours ago
But the more you play the better you get…
starman2112@sh.itjust.works 5 hours ago
Like hell. I hit my skill ceiling in these games a long time ago, and I’m not getting any younger.
TheGreenWizard@lemmy.zip 8 hours ago
You know, the darksouls creator’s quote pisses me off. Not because of his opinion, but because the extreme soulslike fanatics will yell, kick, and scream about how difficulty sliders are the devil and how the game itself has its own way of making it easier for you but if you don’t play the game their with their specific build, your play through doesn’t count.
ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works 7 hours ago
Well first off, fuck them. That’s just what happens when people lose at PvP.
His quote is absolutely right, and especially with Dark Souls 1. There’s so many ways to approach the game that isn’t the meme pvp build everyone references out the gate.
starman2112@sh.itjust.works 6 hours ago
It’s absolutely not right. I am not good at soulslikes, so the games are harder for me. If you have fun with it, that’s because the game is easier for you
Demdaru@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
Match the type of a game, sheesh.
Bethesda like open world? Gimmie difficulty levels - nothing will change with them except that people will be able to tailor the experience more.
Narrative and/or choice heavy game? Leave difficulty choice off to let the original vision of the author speak for itself - havimg parts too easy or hard due to watered down or pumped up difficulty can ruin the story.
Arcade/Dark Souls games? I…don’t really see reasons for difficulty settings here except for harder than baselines ones? Like new game +. In these games, learning patterns and gettimg good is the game, there is no way around it.
All in all - not every game is for everyone, we have genres for a reason. Having difficulty tailored for arcades in open world exploration game makes no sense just as much as having watered down difficulty levels in narrative heavy games.
Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 hours ago
Some have limited time and want to enjoy a good game without being one-shot or learning patterns for 5 hours to beat a single boss.
Demdaru@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
This is really such an weird argument. Like arguing that you want to be able to drive a nail with any tool you find, so no matter if these are scissors, a spoon or an actual hammer, all need to be usable as a hammer.
We have genres for a reason. If you do not like soulslikes, pick another game. If you have no time to play arcade style games, pick another genre. There are thousands of games available, and genre overlap is huge - don’t play games that aren’t meant to align with your requirements and then complain they don’t.
Like, this is borderline egoistical of you.
Blackmist@feddit.uk 11 hours ago
You’re way overblowing the difficulty of the Souls games.
I’ve beaten most of them, and my reactions are shit. 90% of the difficulty is from not knowing how it differs from other games.
eneff@discuss.tchncs.de 11 hours ago
Sounds like you’ll need to play a different game then.
AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
Lol yes, I dropped High On Life at the first boss because after trying to pass it ten times, I just couldn’t be bothered.
That’s just not a game to me. It’s just packaged frustration, and I’d rather do something else. So that got uninstalled rather fast.architect@thelemmy.club 10 hours ago
So…. Play a different game? Not everything is for you? Does this actually need to be said?
Bluescluestoothpaste@sh.itjust.works 10 hours ago
learning patterns and gettimg good is the game
Otherwise it’s fruit ninja lmao which is a fun game you should get if you want an easy sword slashing experience
eatCasserole@lemmy.world 19 hours ago
“…to first face that challenge and to overcome it in some way that suits them as a player.”
Honestly when that player is me, this is just going to mean playing a different game. I’m old and busy, I really don’t have the time or energy for hard games.
SkeletalWizard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 hours ago
A lot of people in this thread don’t seem to have gotten the subtle meme post in this image. Itagaki was the dude who made the Modern Ninja Gaiden titles and the Dead or Alive franchise. The dude was always a massive troll to both the media and players but was very dedicated to the vision he had for the games he wanted to make. He also had a very close friendship/rivalry with Katsuhiro Harada, the main dev for the Tekken franchise starting at Tekken 3 and recently cutting ties with Namco to found a new company that is, unfortunately, owned by SNK. Itagaki sadly passed away last year and a lot of old school devs mourned for his loss, but probably none harder than Harada given just how long they had been actual irl friends.
RobotToaster@mander.xyz 15 hours ago
I had to double check that Tomonobu wasn’t responsible for steel battalion. (A game that deleted your save if you didn’t press the eject button in time)
iamthetot@piefed.ca 8 hours ago
I mean, lots of games have “iron man” modes wherein you cannot save scum.
Racoonwithbenefits@lemmy.zip 16 hours ago
Tbh dark souls 2 has extra hard difficulty setting
Just join the covenant at the tree in Majula
It increases enemy dmg by 50%
Reduces your dmg by 20%
Prevents summoning (but you can still be invaded)
cantstopthesignal@sh.itjust.works 10 hours ago
Dark souls games start off in easy mode. You can make it harder by your gear/stat decisions or by going into NG+.
bigmamoth@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
All souls have player difficulty adjustment. Just find better gear, grind XP etc
OwOarchist@pawb.social 19 hours ago
Me, having beaten the game on the highest difficulty level, going back to play it on easy mode in the next playthrough: sometimes I just want to relax while I utterly massacre some bad guys.
hakase@lemmy.zip 10 hours ago
Playing an anything goes run after a Soul Level 1 run.
addie@feddit.uk 10 hours ago
They all challenge you on different ways.
DS3 is actually quite interesting to finish on SL1. You can cast one basic spell, lots of weapons are available to you, but you need to think carefully about your loadout so you’ve got a good set of resistance and buffs for each area.
DS1 limits you to terrible weapons with boring movesets, and by the time you’ve heard the pyromancy noise for the ten thousandth time, you’ll be ready to chuck your monitor out the window.
DS2 is hellish. Your dodge is tied to your agility, which only a few items boost, and for the first 3/4 of the game, you’ll only get that from a crap armour set. Only a couple of weapons are available to you. You’ll need to know basically every boss inside out; some of the ones that were comedic before are no longer so funny.
Scholar is like DS2, but you can’t run into the DLC early on any more to get some of the powerful rings that are in there. I almost cried when I finally got the ring of the embedded.
Wouldn’t know about finishing ER on RL1/no summons. Cleared out the four demigods easily enough, but Morgott was a run ender. RL1 does not leave you a lot of room for mistakes, put it like that.
criss_cross@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
Ninja gaiden black was such a great game.
rockSlayer@lemmy.blahaj.zone 19 hours ago
As someone who’s done Video game QA, working with Tomonobu Itagaki doesn’t sound pleasant. Those campaign sprints are hard enough as is
daannii@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
I think difficulty settings are nice for letting more people play how they want without having to use mods.
I don’t care for the gatekeeping b.s.
I played RE Village with an unlimited-bullets-mod cause otherwise I couldn’t get past choke points.
I play with a controller and shooting is just not great with a joystick unless there is aim assist. Can’t recall if this game had it or not but either way I kept dying when swarmed by werewolves.
I like horror games and I get that the point is to make you anxious about ammo or health. To build tension. But I just find it frustrating sometimes.
gmtom@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
Tangential, but I really dislike the industries trend toward super forgiving difficulty settings
Like the new Halo you can change basically any setting you want to make, to “customise” your difficulty
starman2112@sh.itjust.works 6 hours ago
Yeah fuck letting new players have a similar experience with the game as more experienced players. If you haven’t spent 20 years playing Halo then you don’t deserve to have fun with it
hakase@lemmy.zip 4 hours ago
All of your comments is this thread just scream “mad because bad”.
Git gud bruh.
Or don’t, and go play something else. But either way quit screeching about how entitled you think you are to force someone else to dumb down their art to your level.
Aedaz_@lemmy.zip 7 hours ago
Itagaki was a pretty big bastard if I remember right, or was that someone else I’m thinking of.
GutterRat42@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
Also Hideo Kojima: Can I add a setting to have lots of feet. Do you all like feet? more feet!
Mwa@thelemmy.club 16 hours ago
I like the video games with a difficulty selector having a joke difficulty
Kolanaki@pawb.social 16 hours ago
Stick of Truth.
omniman@anarchist.nexus 19 hours ago
Game should only have 1 difficulty that the developer wants . Simple . Having different difficulty to cator weak is very weak . Same can be said for laws though otherwise it would be a primitive fight between 2 people and whoever wins , wins the freedom while other perish in fire
Viceversa@lemmy.world 16 hours ago
Are you fourteen?
Nitrate55@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 hours ago
Judging by the username… probably yes, lol.
omniman@anarchist.nexus 13 hours ago
Just tired of my life . Does anything matter when you will die one day . Does it matter if it has difficulty or not .
chunes@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
What if the developer wants to have multiple difficulties? You know, like Wolfenstein, Doom, and Quake?
trackball_fetish@lemmy.wtf 15 hours ago
Luisp@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 hours ago
Contra?
Evotech@lemmy.world 1 hour ago
Souls ganes has easy modes. Usually there’s an OP build or archetype which makes the game much easier
Furbag@pawb.social 55 minutes ago
I think that is what Miyazaki’s philosophy is. Not everybody needs to be a parry god, nor do you need to defeat the boss naked with a broken sword in order for it to “count”. The souls games and their contemporaries are as difficult as you want to make them. If a boss is too hard, come back when you are overleveled and stomp it. Or use some cheesy build to trivialize it. That’s what he means by “fac[ing] that challenge” and “overcom[ing] it in some way that suits them as a player”.