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Submitted ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨fossilesque@mander.xyz⁩ to ⁨science_memes@mander.xyz⁩

https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/a07685a4-f878-4cfe-9ad8-8e6d71ba9980.png

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  • cogitase@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Natural gas is used to produce hydrogen, which is then used in the Haber-Bosch process to produce ammonia from nitrogen in the atmosphere. Only about 6% of natural gas is used to produce hydrogen, so even if the price were to rise substantially, we could divert natural gas from other uses and have plenty for making ammonia. We also have other ways of producing hydrogen, it’s just that natural gas is more established.

    PEM electrolyzers paired with cheap solar in countries with high insolation can now produce hydrogen for less than the cost of natural gas, but we’re only recently starting to see the construction of the large-scale green ammonia plants needed to accomplish this. Egypt is currently constructing a 100-MW green ammonia plant powered by solar energy. Even if you didn’t have enough PEM eletrolyzers you could still just pass current through some salt water and produce hydrogen, albeit much less efficiently.

    It’s not going to be a catastrophic issue.

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    • Rusty@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Fun fact: Fritz Haber, the German guy that invented the Haber-Bosch process is the same Fritz Haber that invented the use of chlorine gas in chemical warfare. He was personally overseeing it’s effect in the battle of Ypres.

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      • als@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Clara Immerwahr, who was married to Fritz Haber and was a successful chemist in her own right, spoke out against his research as a “perversion of the ideals of science” and “a sign of barbarity, corrupting the very discipline which ought to bring new insights into life.” She ended her own life the day before he traveled to the eastern front to oversee the use of chlorine gas against Russian troops.

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      • ChicoSuave@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Dude knew his chemicals

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      • far_university1990@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Habern wir einen an der Waffel? Ja

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      • boonhet@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        And the Bosch in this instance is not Robert Bosch, founder of the company Bosch, but his nephew Carl Bosch, founder of IG Farben. Famous for, among other things, zyklon b.

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    • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Thank you for explaining the process, because the pro-fuel-cell pact doesn’t understand that hydrogen isn’t free.

      “Oh it comes from ammonia”. Alright, where does the ammonia come from???

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      • Hypx@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        You’ll make hydrogen from renewable energy. That is the point.

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    • The_v@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Farmers almost uniformly over-apply N fertilizer. Having it be more expensive and forcing them to look into more efficient ways of applying fertilizer and managing nutrients is not a bad thing.

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      • KairuByte@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Unless it just causes the crop to cost more without any change in behavior.

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    • marcos@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      we could divert natural gas from other uses and have plenty for making ammonia. We also have other ways of producing hydrogen

      We can’t do any of those in a scale large enough to replace the destruction and have it online for the next planting season on the North Hemisphere. Or the next one on the South Hemisphere either, btw. Or the following ones for each.

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    • fullsquare@awful.systems ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Adding to that, logistics are such that direct impact will be felt strongest in places like India that rely heavily on Qatari LNG to make fertilizer, but many places have other sources of both gas and fertilizer. Americas, EU, Russia and China will get by because they have their own supply and will be only affected by price increase

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    • BodyBySisyphus@hexbear.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Also, while it’s still new, plasma nitrogen has the potential to rapidly scale if the economics stop making sense for Haber-Bosch nitrogen.

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    • OhVenus_Baby@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      It might not be a massive scientific issue but I bet prices will still rise and the news will be fearmongering causing pricing to go up and never come back down. It’s a capitalism issue and corruption and greed.

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  • 1984@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    A lot of dreamers here who never actually tried to grow something. A lot of YouTube video knowledge but no practical experience.

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    • Nikls94@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Bro my cacti died. Both of them.

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      • Auth@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        ok you can stay away from the garden and take a more motivational role

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      • Samskara@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Cacti are more difficult than other plants to grow.

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    • hydroxycotton@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      As someone who has been trying to grow tomatoes in containers for about 10 years, I can confirm that it really is difficult. It took me about 5 years to achieve fairly consistent results and get the hang of properly amending the soil, planting correctly, watering, pruning etc. And I still have years where the production is really low, largely due to fungal diseases.

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      • mrgoosmoos@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        see what you should have done is just toss some rotten ones onto your driveway or behind the shed and ignored them and next year you’d have had the biggest baddest bitchingest tomato plants you’d ever seen

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      • lepinkainen@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        We planted tomatoes on the backyard last year and we drowned in them, kilos and kilos of the stuff

        It also would’ve been a lot cheaper to get the same amount from the grocery store 😅

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      • 1984@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Yeah. I have the largest respect for people who manage to get that far. It really is not easy.

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      • CentipedeFarrier@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Not wanting to add complexity or anything but have you considered trying a deep water culture (DWC) hydroponic system? That’s all a fancy way to say a dark colored large 5-ish gallon bucket of water with specific hydroponic nutrients dissolved in the water (I use a generic balanced powder and it works nicely) and an air pump to keep the water from going stagnant. As long as you keep the air pump dry, you can do the whole thing outside without issue. I hang mine under a plastic camera guard and it works nicely.

        I’m terrible at growing things in dirt because dirt remembers what you did to it (holds salts and nutrient excess unless you flush the soil), but hydroponics is a totally different thing. You can just toss the water and give it new when it starts showing signs of nutrient deficiency/toxicity. The roots end up massive and healthy and everything grows faster since there’s zero resistance in the growth medium. Just sucking up everything they can. Tho since the typical advice is to just completely toss the water at least weekly once it’s grown up (great for outside gardens or houseplants after the tomato buckets), you usually don’t end up with imbalances like that at all.

        Proper care of a hydro system makes for a bountiful harvest most years, and if you want, you can very easily keep a tomato clone over winter to keep some smaller amount of production going. Hydro works very well inside because you don’t bring most of the bugs you would with a dirt pot.

        Throw like 4 standard screw-in daylight bulbs of 60+watt-equivalent leds and you’ve got a grow space. No fancy expensive nonsense required.

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    • dejova281@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      The best is community roles in a collective. If you try to do everything yourself you’ll fail but in specializing you’ll succeed. For produce, one neighbor specializes in tomatoes, the other cucumber, the other onions, etc etc… that’s how human society survived in tough times and that’s actually as a species how we’re supposed to operate. As a community. Another reason why everyone is so dang lonely and depressed. Anyways, I digress…

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      • bluemellophone@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Yep, find your local CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) and get a membership

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      • KeenFlame@feddit.nu ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        As a species we were never supposed to operate by giving all labour and spoils to tree people, it’s speciciede

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    • Agent641@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Buying dry food is probably better than canned. It’s lighter, stores for longer, and is much more compact.

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      • MonkeMischief@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Are we talking like, bags of rice and beans?

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    • morto@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I grow a lot of stuff in a relatively small space. Sometimes I cave to give stuff away because it’s too much for me. Maybe living in a tropical region helps? or maybe because I grow mostly native stuff that needs near to zero care.

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      • MonkeMischief@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        LOL yeah. Stuff actually grows in tropical regions! :p

        I’m happy for you there. (Although I imagine pest control gets interesting haha)

        Southwestern U.S desert? Yeah, another story. Hydroponics are basically the best bet for your typical suburbia-dweller, I think.

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      • FeatherConstrictor@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Living in a tropical region definitely helps. Up north, the selection is difficult. Where and when you plant different items is really important, since you can very easily kill the plant if you plant it too early or late

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    • bryophile@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Haha, are you speaking from your own practical experience, in which you failed and decided to buy canned food instead?

      It’s not easy, but it’s not impossible either. It depends on your circumstances.

      And there’s an in between as well: grow some of your own food and buy canned foods as well. Or share a garden with people who know what they’re doing.

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    • Dozzi92@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Yeah, my peppers got too much calcium and had black ends. Cucumbers got too yellow. Cabbage worked fine, but I fucking hate cabbage. Beans were seriously lacking. Shit certainly isn’t easy, and it’s way to easy to think, hey, I can do this no problem!

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    • WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I planted horseradish into the ground, neglected it, and it grew anyway.

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    • Draconic_NEO@mander.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I agree that people should definitely keep a good store of non-perishable foods in case of hard times, but you also should try to grow food as well. I don’t think anyone is trying to say it’ll be easy, like anything at first it is difficult. It’s definitely worth trying though, if you can and have the space. Like I said, don’t go all in as your only option, keep non-perishable foods on hand, like canned goods, or dried goods. If you’re able to grow your own food you get fresh fruits and veggies, and you won’t use up as many canned goods.

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  • StillAlive@piefed.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Yes.

    Blame Americans. 

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    • fizzle@quokk.au ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Hey. I quite like Canadians.

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      • Hadriscus@jlai.lu ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        I’m partial to the mexicans myself

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      • chakli@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        But they are silent thought.

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      • Scubus@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Deport your southern neighbors, it’s the American way.

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    • Prunebutt@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Don’t forget Israel.

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      • PhoenixDog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        whynotboth.gif

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    • ObtuseDoorFrame@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
      [deleted]
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      • plantfanatic@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        When someone says American, they mean a USA resident. I don’t know anyone who would assume they mean a Canadian or Mexican, since you use those terms for them.

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      • IAmYouButYouDontKnowYet@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        American (read by the entire world as USA) culture is the problem.

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      • Valmond@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Wasn’t the CNN just conducting a poll about the Iran invasion and around 100% of maga was for it, and like 35% of democrats too?

        Like insane numbers (am home w bad cold might write errors).

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      • Scubus@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        America, where there is an actively sitting known pedophile president protecting a group of elite pedophiles

        Well, we’re not trying that hard. Seriously, it takes one person to put an end to all this misery and yet we don’t. Until there’s real progress in the US, it’s safe to say that each and every American supports our presidents actions if nothing else through refusal to stop him.

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    • cattywampas@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Don’t blame me, I voted for Kodos.

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    • Soulg@ani.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Ah yes it’s all my fault you’re right whoops

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      • PhoenixDog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Are you American? Then yes it’s your fault. This is because of the USA.

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  • BigBenis@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    You think food prices will come back down after it’s all over?

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    • elvith@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

      As if you’d need to ask that question…

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    • SoloPhoenyx@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Image

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  • Siethron@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Plant a vegetable garden?WHERE?

    DO YOU THINK I CAN AFFORD A YARD?

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    • SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I have a copy of this little pamphlet called Fugitive Gardens, which is all about gardening in small spaces, such as a fire escape.

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      • KyuubiNoKitsune@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        It’s all fun and games until there’s a fire.

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    • forkDestroyer@infosec.pub ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Hydroponic indoor gardening is the way. (I assume - I don’t grow any food hahahahaha)

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      • einfach_orangensaft@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        i would, but power prices are making it impossible to be a alternative

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      • Wizard_Pope@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        If they cannot afford a yard what makes you think they have space to spare inside to grow stuff??

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    • Bytemeister@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Container garden. I even had one on my North facing balcony in Baltimore.

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  • Catoblepas@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    You should always feel free to grow a garden, but you shouldn’t necessarily expect it to be cheaper than buying food. Especially the first year, if you don’t live in a place where you can just dig up some dirt and chunk seeds in it. Even if you do you should make sure the soil isn’t literally toxic first, especially since it’s common to have a buildup of things like lead or arsenic from now-outlawed fertilizers that can be absorbed by plants.

    My grandparents planted maybe half an acre? Of crops for 10 people, and it was supplemental, not a complete replacement. It also takes a lot of work and can go to shit if the weather is bad. You can account for some of this by planting a variety of crops, trying to head off drainage and shade issues before they start, and with supplemental watering. But don’t expect everything to be super productive every year, especially in the age of climate change. My sister had some plants not put out at all last year (peppers).

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  • trackball_fetish@lemmy.wtf ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Grow a garden where? On what fucking land lmao

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    • Agent641@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      You bought land, right? Right!?

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    • GreenKnight23@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      whatever land you can take.

      some cities have programs that allocate park or unused land for community gardens. some even give you a small budget to build infrastructure like beds or buying dirt.

      grow staple foods that have long storage life: squash, pumpkins, carrots, rutabaga, potatoes. these can stay on your shelf for 3-8 months if stored properly. personally I have about 12 (3-5lbs each) spaghetti squash sitting since harvest in November that will be fine until about August.

      secondary are things you can freeze or dry: squash, peppers, peas, green beans, Lima beans, kidney beans, cabbage, beets. I dry most of these and toss them into soups and ramen.

      tertiary are foods you can process and preserved through canning, drying, or freezing: tomatoes (sauce or breaded), okra (breaded), etc…

      your diet will change, but you’ll feel good about what you’re cooking because you grew it.

      good luck!

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      • HasturInYellow@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Plant the 3 sisters (beans, corn, squash/pumpkin) together in a small area to maximize shelf stable production. You will need to do a small amount of research on planting times but the times are fast approaching.

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  • r1veRRR@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Is this a good time to mention that animal ag is the most wasteful form of food we have? Further, consider capitalism and western rich countries. If the choice is between feedin poor people and feeding cows, what choice will the money make?

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    • Bytemeister@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I dunno, we grow huge amounts of corn for ethanol to replace 15% of the fuel for cars… And it would be multiple time more efficient (in terms of land use) to cover that area with solar panels and phase out ICEs for EVs.

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  • BastingChemina@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    It’s not just fertilizer:

    it takes about 7.3 units of (primarily) fossil energy to produce one unit of food energy Assessing the sustainability of the US food system: a life cycle perspective

    With all the fertilizer, heavy equipment and agricultural practices the food production today is very inefficient from an energy perspective.

    Without cheap, abundant energy available the whole food production system is not sustainable

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  • perishthethought@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    What are pulses?

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  • ZombieMantis@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    It’s a little late to start a food garden. You won’t be getting any harvests for a while, and it won’t be much. Best to stock up on shelf-stable goods now, and build community for mutual aid.

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  • Agent641@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Most chemical fertilizer is synthesised from LNG.

    The two biggest exporters are Russia (sanctioned) and Qatar (all plants shut down)

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  • Coleslaw4145@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Good thing my country exports 90% of its agricultural produce, so if we start getting hungry then we’ll just export a bit less.

    (We learned the hard way a long time ago when we ran out of potatoes.)

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  • Emi@ani.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    How worried should I be? And how much should I doom prep?

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  • smh@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    My partner and I are in conflict about food storage. I buy beans, pasta, and jarred foods when I’m stressed. He doesn’t like sacrificing storage space and I think just sees it as clutter.

    Anyways, I’m going to pick up more pasta, pasta sauce, and canned soup. Boxed macaroni and cheese. Stuff I know we’ll cycle through and doesn’t need much effort to cook because I know when things get bad I won’t want to brain much.

    Oh! LPT: textured vegetable protein is shelf stable dried soy protein and you can rehydrate it to add a ground beefy texture to things, like macaroni and cheese or pasta sauce.

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  • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Who wants a kitchen garden?

    Who wants to care for a kitchen garden? It’s not as simple as putting seeds into the ground and waiting until it grows. You have to dig up the site. You have to water it in a drought. You have to pull out the weed. You might even have to fight against insects, or use fertilizer. 19 out of 20 people I knew had given up on the idea of a kitchen garden.

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  • ParlimentOfDoom@piefed.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Piss in a bucket. There’s your ammonia.

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  • Deceptichum@quokk.au ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Damn, imagine if we hadn’t depleted our soils of nutrients through unsustainable agricultural practices requiring us to pump unsustainable chemical fertilisers into the ground.

    Combined with reducing the half a years supply of food per person that we waste per person each year. And using local native species instead of unsuitable foreign crops, we wouldn’t have to worry about any of that right now.

    Oh well, now millions of the global south get to starve to death as we steal purchase their dwindling crops. Modern society is the best thing ever and we should make no effort to change it.

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  • Bwaz@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    In case anyone was wodering how much damage a single idiot in the White House can cause.

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  • menas@lemmy.wtf ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    we’ve got plenty of rich to eat

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  • JerkyChew@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    What is a pulse?

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  • SnarkoPolo@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    At least the schools aren’t teaching WOKE. Priorities. /s

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  • chunes@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    When agricultural processes are invented that allow the population to grow by billions, what’s the first thing people do? Rush to fill the extra capacity. Sure would be nice if we had the prudence to maintain a buffer.

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  • ICastFist@programming.dev ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Good thing I have a couple of acquaintances that have small farms and produce, so if shit goes downhill, I know where to offer my labor

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  • FundMECFS@piefed.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    One day we’ll learn to structure laws so that fertilised monoculture isn’t the only economically viable form of agriculture.

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  • azertyfun@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    This will only affect poor countries. Rich, industrialized countries have more than enough capacity to make or buy their own fertilizer. Yes prices will go up again, but it’s an economics issue, not anything close to an existential threat. There is simply more than enough calorie production for everyone even with strong perturbations in global shipping. Fertilizer is only a marginal use for methane in terms of volume.

    If you live in a poor country however, things are a lot more dire. The price of fertilizer is indexed on the price of gas, of which there is still enough for everyone; but your country will be competing with AI datacenters for the fucking stuff which means millions will have to die so Musk can continue to jerk it to AI child porn.

    It’s not a gas pricing issue, it’s a wealth hoarding issue compounded by the aimless crusade of a demented manlet commanded by religious fanatics.

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  • Jollyllama@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Fertilizer “crisis” is a man made problem.

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  • IAmYouButYouDontKnowYet@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    America needs to knock off thay 200,000,000 citizens from their population… The last step of project 2025.

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  • WorldsDumbestMan@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    If I could, I would make sure it happens. It will do a lot more than screw over food supplies.

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  • Digit@lemmy.wtf ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    By design by those who refuse to escape their mysanthropic anthrocidal circular reasoning.

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