Don't forget where we came from and what shaped us as a species. The Jungle.
Submitted 1 day ago by cm0002@lemmy.world to [deleted]
https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/d47fc60b-c596-47f7-955d-8bc933667bc1.jpeg
Comments
Strawberry@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 hours ago
strawberrysocial@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
I think the problem isn’t that we eat meat. It’s that we torture the animals and have them live in deplorable conditions before we eat them. If we all hunted or raised our own animals or had the animals live in decent conditions it would be less of an issue for most REASONABLE vegans and vegetarians. I used to be vegan and vegetation for a decade so I get it a bit. I hated it when anyone would bitch about other people’s food choices, but then complain when they did the same to them for their food choices. Both sides I mean. I had some non-veggies once they found out I didn’t eat meat would attack me for it. When I did start eating meat again some vegans and vegetarians would attack me for it.
Mr_Dr_Oink@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
I know that the industry is horrific. I have battled internally with becoming a vegan. And this isn’t a but, it’s just something i thought about once when thinking about the argument that whilst in nature, animals eat other animals, its not the same as what we do as we farma dn torture animals to get the meat…
Its cats…
Cats torture their prey…
They play with it, and maim it and keep it alive for as long as possible so they can chase it, for fun…
And sometimes they just fucking leave it there when it dies.
And we love cats. Even vegans love cats.
And that sort of makes me laugh a bit.
Ketram@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 hours ago
For me, I think the difference is that I have the means and opportunity to reduce (an incredibly minor amount, I know) the suffering of animals everywhere by not eating meat, so I feel somewhat an obligation to do so.
Whereas a cat does not have the knowledge or information or desire to make that sort of decision making. So I love them anyway…I just don’t let them outside so they can’t murder every living thing nearby for fun.
To each his own, that’s just my personal impetus to be meat free.
Shou@lemmy.world 5 hours ago
Most of the time, adults don’t torture their prey. Kittens aren’t born with the ability to hunt, and their instincts need to develop too. So the mom brings home live prey for the kittens to play with. Sometimes adults keep this behaviour.
cm0002@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
Absolutely, the meat industry needs to be clamped down on hard
But, there are plenty of vegans who also rail against alternatives like lab grown beef which is still meat but bypasses all the problems with the meat industry of today
LanguageIsCool@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
We’re destroying the Amazon for cattle but haha birds eat rodents lmao gottem
Teppichbrand@feddit.org 11 hours ago
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 hours ago
The human brain is fueled by about 20% of your caloric intake. We’re evolved to be omnivorous. This isn’t prescriptive but descriptive. It’s going to take development to make vegan food delicious and something we want to eat (and then all the other features we want out of food: cheap, storage-safe, easy to prepare, etc.
For those of us who still eat a meat diet, it usually takes a chef to make something actually enjoyable from strictly vegetables. Otherwise, we’re used to receiving oddly-spiced bland much from our vegan friends. But we could do better if we were putting billions into it, and not the more-addictive cheeto.
But we live entrenched in capitalism, so no one is going to take this seriously until we’re already dropping dead from natural disasters and famine.
Teppichbrand@feddit.org 8 hours ago
Wow, I asked for the bullshit and you seriously delivered! Not sure if I should take the time to reply to this, because would my effort change anything?
Everything you eat is vegan, except for the animal tissue, all milk-stuff and eggs. We don’t need capitalism to invent us vegan food, we fight it by eating fruits, nuts, legumes and vegetables, like we always did. It’s great for your body and for the planet as well!
Dogs are omnivores, pigs are, too. They eat a rotting squirrel if the feel like it, we die if our bleach-cleaned chicken isn’t in the freezer for half a day.
Damn, I just started replying.agavaa@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
No idea what you are talking about. I’m not even vegan, but I can make a delicious vegan meal without even trying. All my vegan friends make very tasty food, too. No need for billions.
AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net 8 hours ago
In light of the west’s heavily animal-centric diets resulting in most of the top causes of death in these places, it’s not exactly accurate to call us omnivores. The centered on whole plant foods our diets are, the better off we are. Animal flesh, dairy, and eggs, at the very least, cannot be consumed without increasing progression and risk of cardiovascular disease and diabetes (Ignoring a host of other harmful effects like cancer and autoimmune disorders, which is more contentious).
It would be more accurate to say that we are primarily herbivores, but with an incomplete and dangerous emergency system for omnivory.
dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works 4 hours ago
Preach. This is why every Mr. Olympia is filled to the brim, just like non-vegan dudes’ wives, with vegans. Boom. Nothing but power and rightness and winning. Bigger, stinger, smarter, righter, and better at internet discourse.
#micdrop
Saithe@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 hours ago
I feel like this is the “attack helicopter” joke of veganism
Deceptichum@quokk.au 8 hours ago
Isn’t that every joke on veganism?
tomi000@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
Lumisal@lemmy.world 18 hours ago
Image Well if the ants can do it, why can’t we?
(Btw, I’m opposed to caged chicken egg cultivation, and even had my own chicken in the past before I couldn’t anymore for eggs. Now I just pay the premium and researched which were the most ethical eggs in the store available. Happy hens make better eggs anyway. I’m just pointing out we’re not the only ones that raise animals for consumption in nature).
Trumble@sopuli.xyz 15 hours ago
Why would what ants do have relevancy to what we should do?
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 hours ago
ants can do it, why can’t we?
(Btw, I’m opposed to caged chicken egg cultivation
lol
Katana314@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
I invented a fictional society for stories in which you are allowed to buy and consume meat, but only if you have a “carnivore’s medallion”. The only way to obtain one is to have witnesses observe you personally slaughter a living being (eg, a chicken) with no assistance.
Ideologically, seems like a good way to put friction on meat obsessions and get people to think about it.
jol@discuss.tchncs.de 10 hours ago
90% alive today would not eat meat if they had to kill. You can grow up used to it of course.
Machinist@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
I like this idea. We’re raising chickens and probably rabbits this spring. If you’re going to eat meat, you should face the reality of the life you are consuming.
tomi000@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
Sounds interesting.
Droggelbecher@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
If they went to live naked in the woods and used their apex predator canines to tear out a deer’s jugular, I’m not judging.
NIB@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
Humans “i dont rape because i respect other humans”. Meanwhile nature …
jol@discuss.tchncs.de 10 hours ago
But what about my sharp canine teeth? Check mate.
deltamental@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
Tabula_stercore@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
Those are to hold on to your victim more tightly
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 hours ago
Telling boys to just go masturbate got us the Immorten Joe’s Warboys ^†^ that are the alt-right, that got Trump into power twice. The boys we told to literally go fuck themselves when they raged over their sexual frustration got us the army of militants and voters behind the white Christian nationalist movement. I was among them in the 1980s, when the society gave a meager few more fucks about them than they do in the twenty-first century.
I suspect similar movements exist through Europe, which is generally rejecting neoliberalism for fascist-thick movements towards one-party autocracy.
No, I don’t have a solution, and I’ve been working on it for thirty years. Christianity’s proscription against sex (later limited to non-reproductive sex) figures largely into the problem and it’s served so far as a sufficient distraction from class consciousness and effective response to industry’s effect on climate, and the imminent climate crisis.
We don’t have a way to let our young guys sow their wild oats, while we’re careening towards multiple great filters we are unprepared to navigate.
I know: 🧶📌📇
Maybe even: 🐰🎩🫖☕
And yet, very few people think about it, still. Those who do ponder the angry-young-men problem discount them as ineligible or feel they are too repugnant to civilized folk to consider. I’ve heard otherwise rational content creators actually say (I paraphrase) these guys were mistreated as kids and are now a societal problem. But they suck, so fuck those guys.
It might be a failing of the human species itself, that we are compelled to cast our young men out the way gorillas cast out their adolescent females (but welcome strange females), and capitalism intentionally only has limited seats where they can pick themselves up, so the system teaches them from the beginning to be aggressive, ruthless and transactional. Not to get completely nihilist, but maybe our capacity for civilization is limited and we just can’t overcome the paradigms that served us as migratory bands of hunter-gatherers.
In the meantime, our boys are taught they suck in our Christianity-heavy abstinence-only sex-ed, ^‡^ from which they descend into the incel movement, the manosphere, gamergaters, etc and from there into the transnational white power movement. Our society gave Trump his instant army, and it was ready for him the moment Trump went into politics. And our lack of interest or concern about the new batch of warboys we churn our from the US education system every year, is going to literally kill us all.
Just go vegan is going to end the same way, especially since the food industry cares not about actual nutrition but profit. Taking a page from Fourth International Posadism, we may have to end capitalism before we can create an ethical food production system (probably incorporating farming invertebrates as well as vegetables), but the problem right now is not what’s the end result ( Fully Automated Gay Space Communism ) but how the heck we get there and not crash and burn with the global ecology.
Totally open to ideas, but I’m not the guy you have to convince.
† Not to be confused with Warboyz of W4K fame.
‡ Twenty six states mandate abstinence-only sex ed, that stuff that teaches girls they are chewing gum, or someother one-use safety-sealed metaphor, and that boys aren’t allowed to think about sex until they have a salaried job and a ring. Seriously, this is still what is taught.
Three states mandate comprehensive sex ed: The west coast. And none of them require discussion of consent. (Some teachers include it anyway, as an elective topic). Of course, if we demanded opt-in consent in our sexual relationships, we might demand opt-in sex in our other contracts as well, say our jobs, our devices, our software, etc.
dx1@lemmy.world 1 hour ago
Am I supposed to read more than a sentence of this
nimble@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
Veganism isn’t about respect for nature. It is a philosophy and way of living against animal cruelty and exploitation.
Congratulations on a legit shitpost.
Lemminary@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Whoosh.
KomfortablesKissen@discuss.tchncs.de 21 hours ago
Vegans have to deal with arguments like this but unironically on the daily. That hits a nerve, wether it’s meant as a shitpost or not. Don’t take it personally.
nimble@lemmy.blahaj.zone 23 hours ago
Lmao. Look at OPs comments. They actually believe this shit. Based on all the other shitposts they post here and all throughout lemmy, they probably picked it up on reddit or some other trash site, thought it was funny, and came here to share.
rivvvver@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
does this look natural to u?
cm0002@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I can side with the vegans that the meat industry needs to be clamped down on hard
But eating meat in of itself is not wrong, that is what is natural
flamingos@feddit.uk 1 day ago
There are plenty of things that are ‘natural’ that are wrong to do, why is eating meat any different?
threshold_dweller@lemmy.today 11 hours ago
Murder and rape are also “natural.”
coherent_domain@infosec.pub 1 day ago
Yes, but most people in the west don’t have the option to eat meat that are not from the meat industry.
That is exactly why vegan is attractive in the west.
BlastboomStrice@mander.xyz 12 hours ago
Yo this seems to be a bad take
I think something that defines humanity is that we really try not to follow the “rules of nature”, ie. the rule of the stronger over the weaker
tomi000@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
99% of vegans dont say eating meat in itself is wrong and this bullshit narrative needs to stop
Desistance@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Yeah, I wash shocked to find out that Squirrels hunted and ate smaller mice when they felt the urge.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 hours ago
What ever horror humanity has done, we are still holding the beer of invertebrates.
And yet nature’s is is not a justification for aught. The fruit of the tree of wisdom (mythically) gave us empathy that we may live in harmony with neighbors, and in the late game, we have learned the imperative to see value in the fallow wilds.
A century ago, a vegan diet for humans as extremely difficult, possibly impossible. And to quote Saruman the forests will burn in the fires of industry! And they have.
We are not a vegan culture today because the food industry focuses on sales and profits, not on nutrition and health.
Though to be fair our massive land-hungry industrial farms will affect the biomes around them regardless of whether we grow plants or ranch livestock. Veganism is part of a solution towards a more harmonious civilization, but misses several pieces.
dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works 4 hours ago
What the crap is this response?
AnimalsDream@slrpnk.net 9 hours ago
The survival of the fittest narrative was debunked almost as soon as it existed, and that debunking is what forms the ideological basis of mutual aid. That people continue to spread this toxic misinformation over a century later is a testament to the unfortunate tenacity of lies.
Even in the most brutal depths of the natural world, cooperation is still the overarching basis of ecosystem health. It’s known in Permaculture, for instance, that too much competition results in resource depletions.
A vegan ethic is inline with a growing awareness and need for us all to learn to expand our capacities of empathy and compassion, from those who are most like us, to those who are most unlike us.
On the topic of wilderness areas, vegans are divided on what the right approaches are. Some of us compare natural biomes to sovereign nations - while we dislike the harms that occur in those places, we feel a need to allow other species their independence to have their self-determination, if for no other reason than the fact that nature is the basis of maintaining a habitable planet, and interference in ecosystems should only be done with the utmost care.
But there are other vegans who do believe strongly that we should be intervening in wild places as well, with the goals of eliminating predation all together, and managing wildlife populations in more ethical ways.
It’s a highly contentious topic to be honest.
niktemadur@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
So we domesticated fire, that’s one step out of the swamp and steppes.
Then there was agriculture and animal husbandry, we became sedentary.Writing developed, accelerating growth in the arts, math and engineering, the sciences… we had domesticated knowledge and memory - data storage.
Before we knew it, the printing press popped up and soon after we domesticated something abstract and invisible, awesome and truly fundamental - electromagnetism. That’s is the big game changer right there.
We have figured out our physical place in the universe.
We can image distant supermassive black holes, we have mapped the farthest, faintest reaches of the visible universe using the oldest light there is - the Cosmic Microwave Background (which started out as orange light 13.7 billion years ago).We are now in the process of harnessing sunlight and the wind; the genome; we can now even perform data operations using quantum superimposed electron states, harnessing the subatomic wave function itself.
Surely we can now domesticate protein chemistry. So many steps away from the swamp and steppes already, so far we can’t turn and go back again. What’s one more step?
Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 1 day ago
As much as I admire the morality and overall health of vegetarian/vegan folks, I would also super respect anyone who got all their protein by monstering whole live mice that they caught by hand.
FMT99@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I’d support a “you can eat all the meat you can catch and kill with your bare hands” diet.
BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Our ancestors have been using sharp sticks, heavy sticks, and sharp rocks since they could walk upright, so I’d support that, too.
otb@lemmy.world 22 hours ago
I’m vegetarian and my partner is vegan but neither of us are strictly against the “hunter and gatherer” approach.
Where I live traditional hunting is almost nonexistent, but fishing and other ocean-based “hunting” (crabs, crays, oysters etc) is super popular. I’ve considered taking up spearfishing as it’s more intentional than throwing in a hook and dragging up whatever, and requires more (in my opinion) skill and nerve to pull off successfully. But even if I actually caught something the thought of cleaning it puts me off and I’d more than likely ruin it and waste a life for nothing.
No issues with anyone that can fairly catch and prepare their own meat for themselves, but I’ll stick to my tofu and seitan for now.
remon@ani.social 15 hours ago
Great, now I have to replace all my beef with veal.
Plebcouncilman@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
Vegans and vegetarians are not often more healthy than meat eaters. In fact a lot of them subsist mostly on junk food and ultra processed shit.
I dunno about their morals. For me it depends on whether they are opposed to meat because they think it’s murder (absurd notion: see op) or because they opposed the treatment of living animals in industrial meat farms, which is the real issue.
transitinoir@slrpnk.net 1 day ago
There is not only a treatment problem, but also that livestock eats a lot of calories that could be used elsewhere
toomanypancakes@lemmy.world 1 day ago
However you gotta justify your choices I guess.
udon@lemmy.world 13 hours ago
Non-vegan, hearing that vegans exist: “Hey, these people are different from me! I hate them!”
Teppichbrand@feddit.org 8 hours ago
“Hey guys, check it out. I jus came up with this hilarious owl-meme!”
Prandom_returns@lemm.ee 8 hours ago
Oh wow OP, I didn’t know you were a hunter!
Or are you just a sweaty fatso that posts trash boomer memes and gets meat delivered and wrapped in plastic?
Yeah, thought so.
cm0002@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
Aww someone got their fefes hurt in c/shitpost lol, lmao even
Prandom_returns@lemm.ee 7 hours ago
Who, you? Because I called you a fatso?
BigBenis@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I’ll take “things actual vegans never say” for $500!
funkless_eck@sh.itjust.works 23 hours ago
it’s not even a contradiction. One can respect something and not emulate it.
Zacryon@feddit.org 6 hours ago
Don’t forget where we came from and what shaped us as species
blujan@sopuli.xyz 2 hours ago
I don’t think anyone argues that we should live solely eating meat
dx1@lemmy.world 1 hour ago
I don’t think that’s a sane way to respond to the comment he posted
technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 hours ago
Imagine being this much of a naive child.
But_my_mom_says_im_cool@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
I’m a vegetarian and also native. Humans have this weird hubris where they think they’re not part of the natural world. Humans are designed to be omnivores, meat jumpstarted our evolution. I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with eating meat, but what’s wrong is the ease and disregard for meat and the animals that provide it through the factory farming industry.
But at the end of the day there’s no more wrong with a person eating meat, than with that Hawk eating a mouse. We’re part of the circle. We just have the privilege to live in a time and place where not eating meat is a realistic choice
jol@discuss.tchncs.de 10 hours ago
Humans are part of nature, but what call nature is the mostly well balanced group of ecosystems and food chains. Humans turned nature into a devilish food machine. There’s very few animals that hunt and kill for pleasure the way humans do, and even then the vast majority of humans could never kill an animal. So we pay someone else to do it. Killing meat for pleasure is evil, buying it at the supermarket is both evil and cowardly.
DytallixB@lemmy.world 18 hours ago
This is for real shit post
fnie@lemm.ee 1 day ago
Not a vegan, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard a vegan say that. We’ve all watched nature shows. Rationale is usually a little bit deeper. Overconsumption, abuse of animals in meat/dairy industries, responsibility of humans to aim for a higher level of morality than animals, etc. Sure some go overboard, but I wouldn’t underestimate the complexity of the thinking behind it.
Juice@midwest.social 11 hours ago
Where we came from is less important than where we are going. The problems with veganism are not that they don’t eat animals, in fact I don’t think the problem is with veganism at all but with moral imperatives in general that promote black and white, oppositional political positioning. But moral imperatives are one of the most popular and effective rhetorical methods to make a point (and split opposition) so we are just kind of raised in it. If you’re someone who has strong opinions you learn to express them in a certain way.
But veganism is good and primitivist “return to nature” types have a dubious track record aka they tend to be chuds or on their way to chuddening. “Retvrn to the past” is a conservative talking point, but what separates us from nature is capitalism, not veganism.
jol@discuss.tchncs.de 10 hours ago
Veganism is not return to nature. Quite the opposite. And it’s definitely not a return to the past. Veganism is a modern view of society where we look at the possibilities we have today, granted to us by technology and science, and decide to spare the lives of animals. We have a surplus of food and supplements that makes meat consumption less healthy, efficient and ethical than plant based. It’s was virtually impossible to do be 100% plant based 100 years ago in full health.
LGTM@discuss.tchncs.de 5 hours ago
I had thought that veganism was more of a beliefs thing: to not eat products of exploitation, but then I heard the honey thing. The honey thing might be just from an overbearing vegan, or I just don’t know the details, but beekeeping just looks so peaceful
cm0002@lemmy.world 5 hours ago
OTOL honey thing?
ThatGuy46475@lemmy.world 1 day ago
There are too many people for us all to hunt our own meat, and the same amount of farmland that can feed x amount of livestock can feed significantly more people than the livestock would.
daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 18 hours ago
Not all crops are created equal.
Crops intended for livestock are way easier to farm, require less water, less pesticides, and less taking care of.
Many times crops intended for livestock are a necessary part of rotatory crops.
Farming is not as easy as “you can grow anything in any given land”.
Tikiporch@lemmy.world 23 hours ago
Falcons didn’t fuck up by inventing tofu, so they have an excuse. We don’t.
Zahtu@feddit.org 18 hours ago
Except its scientifically proven, that our possibility tonevolve was Not from Hunting, but agricultural Farming. But great Shitpost
remon@ani.social 17 hours ago
Modern humans are around 300.000 years old … we’ve only been farming for 10.000 years. Doesn’t quite add up.
Lumisal@lemmy.world 18 hours ago
No it wasn’t.
Otherwise humans wouldn’t have been smart enough to figure out farming in the first place.
Also humans were already humans when farming was invented. We’re not pokemon.
prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works 14 hours ago
It was fire ya dingus.
Fire allowed us to cook our food, making us die less from pathogens and bacteria AND making more food digestible. ESPECIALLY meat.
Agriculture was what provided our exponential expansion.
InputZero@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
That’s not how evolution works. Evolution doesn’t have a plan, it doesn’t wait, or speed up. Evolution just happens and our human ancestors would have continued to evolve regardless of agriculture. The path that evolution takes could have been very different but it would have happened. The human species is still evolving and will continue to do so until it’s extinction.
Majorllama@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Watch out the one vegan with the finger strength left to press the downvote button is gonna come for you.
FelixCress@lemmy.world 1 day ago
And another one will report his post. They are surprisingly oversensitive 😂
Yareckt@lemmynsfw.com 1 day ago
Hawks eat meat cause they habe to. WE eat meat cause it’s delicious. The Hawks dies if there are too many Hawks in one feeding ground. The human fucks up his and everyone elses Habitat for centurys cause he’s too lazy to change.
Soulg@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
A balanced diet with some meat along with fruits/veg/nuts is the most healthy for most people.
DytallixB@lemmy.world 18 hours ago
cybersin@lemm.ee 1 day ago
Some people just don’t feel comfortable killing and eating animals. Let people live their own lives.
Anyways, less people eating animal products leads to lower prices for those who do (you).
52fighters@lemmy.sdf.org 22 hours ago
Temporarily lower prices. A large consumer base is needed to support the infrastructure that provides meat food products. More people eating more meat will normally produce lower prices in the long-term.
dx1@lemmy.world 1 hour ago
The redditization of lemmy.world is finally complete. Congratulations.
FeelThePower@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 minutes ago
it’s been Reddit bro. as much as some still wanna deny, it was cut from the very same cloth.