And this why democracy won’t work. How can people votw in their best interests when they don’t know how basic taxes work
Is 33 cents a small amount of money?
Submitted 1 day ago by General_Effort@lemmy.world to [deleted]
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5f4231e9-eab2-4ee0-917e-8af812615b2a.jpeg
Comments
joel_feila@lemmy.world 2 hours ago
bearboiblake@pawb.social 21 minutes ago
even if people were mega geniuses it wouldn’t matter, money talks, and it talks a lot louder than people
PixelPilgrim@lemmings.world 59 minutes ago
lol i wonder how much that is just guessing. they just coin flipped it
BedSharkPal@lemmy.ca 2 hours ago
No source?
SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 1 hour ago
Don’t need one. The amount of times I’ve had to explain how fucking tax brackets work, I wouldn’t be surprised if the numbers were even more skewed towards the wrong answer.
AA5B@lemmy.world 1 hour ago
Thanks, Lemmy, now I’m “that Dad”. After reading this, I went to dinner with my two teens and one of their girlfriends, so of course I had to bring this up. All three have started working after school and will need to file their taxes this year so they need to know.
But holy crap is that a seriously uncool conversation
Carrot@lemmy.today 9 hours ago
This belief is held by many older folks due to propoganda, and it is passed down to their children when their parents teach them about taxes. Since almost all younger folks use automated tax services, if they aren’t doing the math themselves, the fact that this isn’t true isn’t going to be discovered. I was taught the incorrect way when I was a kid, but noticed that it was wrong the first time I had to do my own taxes. But when I told my parents the way it actually worked, they didn’t believe me until I showed them the .gov site that breaks it down. I grew up in a small, blue collar town, and every single person I talked to about taxes parroted the same incorrect system.
billwashere@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
Tell me you don’t know how income taxes work without telling me you don’t know how income taxes work.
My question is who does their taxes then?
dan@upvote.au 3 hours ago
A lot of people don’t know anything about taxes and have their tax return done by an accountant, even if their situation is extremely simple (works one job, no taxable investments, no investment properties, no foreign taxes paid).
prayer@sh.itjust.works 2 hours ago
Even if they did go through the trouble to do their own taxes, the IRS specifically instructs taxpayers to not calculate it themselves, but rather to use a “tax table” to lookup their income and next to it is listed their income tax amount.
w3dd1e@lemm.ee 14 hours ago
This is the problem. My partner doesn’t want to work OT because he thinks it will cost him more in taxes. I explain why that’s not exactly true, but I can tell he’s not interested. Financial Literacy in the US is abysmal.
GaMEChld@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
Your partner is a moron who doesn’t understand relatively simple math.
w3dd1e@lemm.ee 5 hours ago
Nah. He’s not an idiot. But he is impatient. He doesn’t handle paperwork or anything involving patience well. (ADHD)
I also think taxes in the US are intentionally over complicated and confusing. I don’t struggle with things like that but I can empathize with people who do.
alkbch@lemmy.ml 11 hours ago
There’s not enough information provided to reach this conclusion.
sloppychops@lemmy.ca 8 hours ago
This is not a US specific issue, tbh. I’ve heard this weird belief repeated by all sorts of people.
bountygiver@lemmy.ml 1 hour ago
it is a misinformation many people in power wants to keep because it lets republicans sell their policies to not tax the rich and bosses to not raise their employee’s salaries.
dan@upvote.au 2 hours ago
I’ve heard it in Australia too, which has the same tax bracket system as the USA. I think the fact that this stuff isn’t taught in school is a major issue.
w3dd1e@lemm.ee 5 hours ago
You’re absolutely right. I cant speak for anyone else, as I don’t live there but I highly doubt the US is an exception.
Rather than being mad at each other, I want to make sure we hold the right people accountable! Governments, corporations, billionaires etc.
It’s a form of oppression.
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
“you can’t make less money by making more money”
kkj@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 hours ago
Unless you’re poor enough to be on welfare. The Welfare Cliff is awful.
recall519@lemm.ee 12 hours ago
Run, if it’s not too late.
underwire212@lemm.ee 5 hours ago
We all have our weaknesses and faults. No need to dismiss every relationship due to imperfections.
w3dd1e@lemm.ee 6 hours ago
Nah. He’s not a bad person or a dummy. He just gets frustrated by bureaucracy and doesn’t have the patience I have.
arrow74@lemm.ee 12 hours ago
Oddly enough it kinda does. OT can make you pay out more taxes on that one check since withholdings are calculated by check. Basically the government/payroll system thinks you’re going to be making that every week so more taxes will be taken out.
In reality this only effects the size of your tax bill or return at the end of the year.
shalafi@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
That’s what people see and exactly why they think they got kicked up a whole tax bracket.
w3dd1e@lemm.ee 6 hours ago
Exactly, and it also depends on what withholding you have requested.
Odelay42@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
By design
Feathercrown@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
No, they teach you this in high school. These people are just dumbasses
Kuranashi@lemmy.world 1 day ago
If you ever wanted proof that a population that doesn’t understand math allows the billionaires to take advantage of them here it is. This is why education systems are under attack, because if you understood how taxes work you’d more likely support higher tax rates for the rich.
slaacaa@lemmy.world 21 hours ago
I think this is at least partially the result of intentional propaganda. It benefits the elite greatly if a lot of Americans are screaming against higher top tax rates due to this faulty logic. There are also a lot of anecdotes of people not accepting higher paying job offers or promotions within their companyc, which also benefits the business owners.
Raiderkev@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
youtube.com/shorts/-621rVJvUdY
Mr. “Population collapse is the biggest threat to the world.”
Maybe it’s just the biggest threat to capitalism and your ROI. Why do you think he’s supporting the make everyone dumber party?
IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 hours ago
Probably the lead poisoning have something to do with it.
Some houses still have lead, to this day.
I know because my city recently passed a law requiring landlords to inspect rentals for lead paint, because a lot of kids are still getting lead poisoning.
(Its Philly btw)
ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de 15 hours ago
It boggles my mind how many people who have had to pay taxes for decades even, don’t understand how tax brackets work.
The only time you’ll get screwed on making more is if you were getting some sort of socialized assistance and you make a dollar over the cut off for aid.
kkj@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 hours ago
Yeah, the Welfare Cliff is the only place where this happens and it’s unconscionable.
straightjorkin@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
It is kind of by design to keep people from trying to get ahead at all
arrow74@lemm.ee 12 hours ago
And to keep the private tax filing agencies afloat
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 1 day ago
To be clear for those unaware, you pay the lower bracket rates for the amounts earned in that bracket and the higher bracket rates for the amounts earned above that bracket.
LodeMike@lemmy.today 1 day ago
This is actually not true as it doesn’t take into account the standard deduction
jacksilver@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Read the chart, it says taxable income.
Deductions and other tax games may lower you’re taxable income, but the progressive tax brackets apply this way to all taxable income.
Nurse_Robot@lemmy.world 22 hours ago
I upvoted because you choose to strike thru rather than delete. Big props for that
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 1 day ago
It does not take into account a lot of things, namely the many many deductions for qualifying individuals.
yunxiaoli@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
Not all people take the standard deduction, this is true before all deductions and similar economic stimuli.
dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works 7 hours ago
How dumb do you have to be? By the time you make that much money you should, in theory, know the answer definitively or have a guy.
ragebutt@lemmy.dbzer0.com 20 hours ago
I used to be a supervisor at a psych hospital and had to regularly explain this to staff who were refusing overtime. They wanted to do it, sometimes desperately so because they needed the money, but they were utterly convinced that once they crossed 40 or 45k or whatever they would be taxed higher and make it all pointless. I felt like some just didn’t want to do ot, which was fine, but some legit keep meticulous records of their earnings to ensure they wouldn’t go over the line. I swore to them it didn’t work this way but they never believed me
OccultIconoclast@reddthat.com 19 hours ago
Should print out a poster infographic explaining progressive taxation and put it up on the wall in the break room
kameecoding@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
Yeah I am pretty sure they wouldn’t understand this either
Feathercrown@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
This infographic is kinda bad and would not convince someone who doesn’t know how it works at all
jj4211@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
Would have to be mandated by workplace regulations, no company is going to voluntarily educate their employees that more money has no downside.
I’ll also say this doesn’t help, it strangely avoids the actual numbers. It should state explicitly that his total taxes would be $1,600+$4,266+$2,827=$8692, and not $13200. Needs to include the scenarios specific results and contrasted with what the viewer would have assumed otherwise.
AA5B@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
But you have to keep it going to highlight how much wealthier people pay (although that’s tougher since their income is not “income”). Maybe throw in a few examples of the wealthiest Americans and wha recent age they pay, to not only clarify it, but retarget their anger where it belongs
thermal_shock@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
Seen the same bullshit when I worked retail. Nothing will convince them.
It’s easier to trick someone that it is to convince them they’re wrong.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 hours ago
I wonder how different the planet would be if boomers had just been taught, from an early age, that it’s OK to be wrong.
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 hours ago
every day, my theory that people are just willfully retarded gets proven more and more correct. Even with the tools at the disposal of the modern internet savvy person, nobody tries ANYTHING to verify ANYTHING.
It’s actually so fucking depressing and i think humanity is joever at this point. I’m not sure how you recover from this point effectively.
ragebutt@lemmy.dbzer0.com 41 minutes ago
I mean in defense of these staff: many of them were not amazingly well educated and were pulling 80-96 hour weeks pretty regularly to earn a livable wage. When were they supposed to do this research?
Korhaka@sopuli.xyz 18 hours ago
We covered how taxes are calculated at school, it isn’t very complicated. Yet SO MANY people insist they end up getting paid more it made me question myself for a while.
Although sometimes the removal of certain benefits does mean people can be worse off for £1 extra. Which if anything is just a sign that the benefits were poorly thought out and should taper off instead of being a hard limit.
JackbyDev@programming.dev 8 hours ago
There is probably sticker shock involved. Someone who gets a raise will see a new amount of taxes witheld and may be upset. It could even be they didn’t know what the amount taken out before taxes was.
AlligatorBlizzard@sh.itjust.works 19 hours ago
The only way that’s a problem is if you’re on certain government benefits, if you make just a little bit too much there’s a hard cutoff for many benefits so you may end up losing more than you made in OT. But if your staff is facing this dilemma, they need to be paid more.
theangryseal@lemmy.world 18 hours ago
Pay them more? So they can lose their benefits? Are you crazy?
I’m kidding, of course. I know that what you mean is, “pay them so that they can afford to live without requiring benefits.”
You get into some of the poorer places in the country though, that truly would be nearly impossible for most businesses. There are some places in West Virginia that would immediately have no access to gasoline, groceries, etc.
It is crazy to think that Bobby McBusinessman gets to ride around in a giant RV all summer because the government pays his employees. They don’t see it that way though, as they collect their HUD payments and accept food stamps while all of their employees receive food stamps and medical benefits.
All while the rest of the community lives on nothing and experiences very little joy in this life.
What do I know though? I’m just a pissed off hillbilly who helped make someone who isn’t me very rich.
hansolo@lemm.ee 18 hours ago
Short of doing a demo with rolls of change or MnMs or something, asking people to conceptualize math that is not just simple addition is often asking too much. Especially when people’s financial literacy is learned at home from people who retired in 1996.
thermal_shock@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
Well look where we are, trump loves the uneducated, they got his thieving rapist ass elected.
burgerpocalyse@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 19 hours ago
Poor Sam
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 hours ago
Sam is the GOAT
AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
That dude wouldnhave been hilarious if he wasn’t really so delusional.
AA5B@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
What? Is this the onion?
JackbyDev@programming.dev 8 hours ago
One of those rage bait YouTube channels had a young person who made that claim in a debate. Pictured is Sam Seder who was the debate opponent. He made this face at the camera.
Treczoks@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
For someone outside the American tax system, can anyone put the difference in approximate numbers?
jj4211@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
This all boils down to a common misconception about ‘tax brackets’.
To simplify, pretend there’s a 28% tax bracket up to 100,000 dollars, and a 33% tax bracket when you hit 100k. The first 100k is always taxed at 28%, no matter what you make, and it’s only the incremental amount that gets taxed heavier. So here in this example, that would mean tax burden would be 28,000.33 instead of 28,000.28. These are not the exact brackets or percentages, but it’s at least showing the right magnitude of increase versus total amount.
However, many people are “afraid” of bumping a higher tax bracket. They think the tax bill would go from 28,000.28 to 33,000.33. That the tax bracket bumps up all your liability. I remember growing up people saying “I have to watch out and not hit the bigger tax bracket, if I’m close then I need a big raise to make it worth it, or else the raise is going to cost me more than it would make me”. This a big driver of antipathy toward democrat tax policies, a belief that mild success will punish them, despite it only increasing on the incremental amount.
Lyrl@lemm.ee 2 hours ago
A lot of US benefits have “benefit cliffs” where making $1 more substantial reduces or even completely disqualifies a person from SNAP (food stamps) or childcare subsidies or Medicaid. ncsl.org/…/introduction-to-benefits-cliffs-and-pu…
It’s not surprising people whose families are directly affected by, or who know people affected by, benefit cliffs think the lawmakers set up taxes the same way.
LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
To be more specific the first 100,000 isn’t taxed at 28%. The 44 to 100k range would be, but below that will be taxed at lower percentages. The first ~10k you make is taxed at 10%, and then it increases throughout.
Treczoks@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
OK, so it is similar to our system. And would probably in the range of cents or a few dollars then.
quitthebiz@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
In exact numbers, 5 cents.
CluelessLemmyng@lemmy.sdf.org 8 hours ago
That one dollar has .33 in taxes instead of .28. So their obligation goes up .05 per every dollar in the 38% tax bracket.
General_Effort@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
Your local tax system probably works the same.
LodeMike@lemmy.today 1 day ago
I’m more concerned about the 33% of dems who don’t understand this.
deranger@sh.itjust.works 1 day ago
it’s in the shitpost community and there’s no sources cited
General_Effort@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
I feel that “outgroup dumb” is shitposting but it’s from a real poll.
KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 hours ago
Shouldn’t it be physically possible to be taxed so much that your income lowers compared to what it was previously?
Like you would have to have a 20% bump in pay, and an increase in taxes that’s like 25-50% or something insane. Of course if you cherry pick data, and pick a high ceiling, and then just barely pass a threshold you can probably make it appear, but that would be a pretty well defined statistical anomaly. And, not very much money.
of course, the idea of a progressive income tax is that at a certain point, it becomes untenable to hold so much money. But unless taxes are literally 100% it’s hard to make the argument that you’re “losing” money.
Davin@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
If the tax bracket for no taxes is $10k, you don’t get taxed if make under that.
If the tax bracket for 5% is $10-20k, and you made $15k, the first $10k is not taxed, but the $5k is taxed at %5.
So you would never make $0 after taxes, even if you made it into the hypothetical 100% tax bracket.
straightjorkin@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
And they’ll also refuse to believe you when you try to explain it to them
ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world 21 hours ago
Hungary used to have a system, which worked like what the republicans imagined, which made “taxing the rich more” a widely unpopular move…
themaninblack@lemmy.world 21 hours ago
That’s a loaded question. Poor methodology.
TheDoozer@lemmy.world 2 minutes ago
When you are talking large income to larger income, that makes total sense, but are there limits for access to things like child tax credits where if you go over you are no longer eligible, causing significant increase (I just looked, and it’s at $200k single of $400k jointly, so unless you have A LOT of children, I suppose there wouldn’t be a huge effect)? Similar to people on government assistance who go from getting full assistance to getting nothing at a certain income level?