Throws grenade and runs

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Submitted ⁨⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨mycodesucks@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨[deleted]⁩

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/c6e929a5-0cfd-49ad-bb9b-f0ca16cd88e6.png

Fire in the hole!

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DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
If we got all the other socialist progressive benefits of the Star Trek universe, including no billionaires, then I think we’d be a lot less unhappy with generative AI as presented in that world.

How they built it, and what they plan to do with it is a pretty big part of the reason for our anger.

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- mycodesucks@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Yeah, if we de-meme it and really want to define it, the difference is Star Trek is a post-scarcity world, so generative AI building things doesn’t take anything away from human artists - it doesn’t affect their livelihoods because their livelihoods are guaranteed.
  
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  - Grizzlybur@piefed.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Plus I think it helps that much of what the holodeck recreates is centuries old at that point. 21st century earth, long ago. It’s not anyone’s current creations, and then beyond that it’s using data that the federation personally got by exploration. Like if people only used AI to generate medieval drawings I don’t think anyone would be too upset really. Maybe weirded out but not upset. Aside from the environmental concerns I guess.
    
    however generating holo characters that look like your coworkers and doing weird stuff to them is a entirely canon issue. And Star Trek never touched on it, but wow would it be easy to fake footage of historical events in a holodeck, especially to civilizations without advanced technology. I work in history as my career and the amount of YouTube videos telling fake stories and showing fake footage of 20th century history is genuinely terrifying. I don’t know what the solution is. Digitization was meant to preserve historical footage but now it just makes it look just like the fake stuff. If anyone digitized historical footage and the physical no longer exists, verifying anything will become a nightmare and sometimes it would be strictly possible.
    
    Honestly the more I think about the holodeck the more I think it’s dangerous as fuck, literally and socially, and Star Trek shows usually only very innocence uses for it. Like you thought parasocial relationships are bad now?
    
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- Ariselas@piefed.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The Star Trek universe also seems to be able to run their AI without boiling the oceans.
  
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  - OwOarchist@pawb.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Still requires boiling oceans, but they’ve found a few uninhabited water planets that can safely be boiled without bothering anybody.
    
    (Also, our AI isn’t even that good. They’re not boiling the oceans. They’re boiling what previous little fresh water we have that could be used for drinking or irrigation. It would be a lot less of a problem if they just built their cooling systems to deal with salt water and used seawater instead.)
    
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- terranoid@lemmy.cafe ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  EXACTLY
  
  If they didn’t invest our entire country and ecosystem into it because they thought it meant digital slaves that could replace the meat popsicles they abhor, then it might not have looked so fucking evil
  
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- lemmy_outta_here@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Exactly! I am not anti-ai. I am opposed to corporate controlled, massively polluting, unreliable slop engines that will be used to surveil us and take our jobs without benefitting us in any way.
  
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- MrNesser@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Depending on the rate of AI we will probably get something to the polity universe version than Star Trek.
  
  Still not as bad but could be better
  
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Murse@slrpnk.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Artificial intelligence in science fiction is intelligence that’s artificial.

Artificial intelligence in real life is more akin to what we’d call “artificial flavors” in some fruit drink that contains 0% fruit. Isn’t fruit, doesn’t taste like fruit, but it’s purple and sweet, so fuck it: “grape”. We’ve accomplished the “artificial” part, but not the bit that actually matters.

So, yeah, AI in sci-fi is unironically great. “AI” irl is shit. If the real version ever comes close to the sci-fi version, you’ll see a lot of the haters change our tune, but until then we’ll call a turd a turd.

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- tias@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  OK, but how will we ever get to “great” AI if we don’t invest in less great AI to drive research. If the luddites on Lemmy calls the shots, Data will never see the light of day.
  
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  - Murse@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Well, rolling with the artificial flavors analogy, we can start by stopping the infuriating trend of adding artificial grape flavor to every fucking food item under the sun. No one asked for or wanted that shit, but now it’s become a chore to find so much as a bag of coffee beans that doesn’t have some blip on the packaging advertising “Now with grape!!” Not only does it taste bad, but it’s caused the cost of food to fucking double.
    
    Second, we can start being honest about what it actually is. Again, it doesn’t taste like grape, so why the fuck are we calling it grape? With AI this is as much on us as it is with the companies marketing that garbage - for ages we’ve been calling so much as an NPC’s pathing algorithm in a videogame “AI” even though there’s objectively no intelligence at play. We’ve since tried to move the goal posts a bit by relabeling actual AI as “AGI” but I guarantee that’ll just become another term to muddy the waters with marketing bullshit. The shit we’re calling “AI” is just categorically not even on the same path as the the kind of AI we see in sci-fi. So if you want Data to see the light of day, we’ll need to stop wasting our time and money on what is effectively a spell checker that’s wrong occasionally.
    
    Unless you think Data is just a chat bot with no consciousness, in which case, hooray, we’ve done it: AI. 🎉 …now can I please have a mug of coffee without Grape™ syrup in it? I know, such a Luddite, drinking coffee without grape! Guilty as charged. But adding that shit to my coffee is never going to get us a product that tastes and feels etc like a grape, so if that’s what you’re after, maybe keep it in R&D and off the fucking grocery shelves.
    
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  - DoctorWhoDMC@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Why on Earth would we want to build anything even close to Data from Star Trek under these conditions?!
    
    No matter how you slice it, we’d be trapping them in a living hell!
    
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Kolanaki@pawb.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
It’s a little more than just the genAI part tho.

You can fuck the holograms.

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- icelimit@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Where does your jizz go?
  
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  - Odo@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Into the biofilters until some poor lower deck person empties it:
    
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  - mycodesucks@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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  - Tehhund@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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  - Duhtocqueville@ttrpg.network ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    In universe the holodeck generates a certain kind of matter that can’t leave the holodeck. So your jizz goes into the holomatter lady who is then presumably disinterested atom by atom just like a teleporter. So your jizz gets dissolved into the ether.
    
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  - rmuk@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Literally the first episode of Lower Decks has someone off-hand mention having to empty the holodeck cum trap.
    
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kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Star Trek’s universe: Federation citizens live in essentially zero scarcity where labor is optional and people can dedicate their lives to basically anything they like that this within their capabilities.

Star Trek’s AI: A typically flawless tool (when the plot doesn’t require an incident), optionally used by the individual, to perform complex calculations, simulations or provide immersion entertainment, complimenting whatever task needs done.

Our universe: We live in a capitalist society where the survival of 95% of the population requires them to sell their labor, where the majority of the population works in any job(s) they can get to make ends meet, where working in a creative or intellectually fulfilling field is a rare blessing and prohibitive to most, where your capitalist overlords claim the majority of your productivity for themselves and see the wages they do pay you as a burden to them that should be minimized regardless of your well-being.

Our AI: Devalues or replaces creative and intellectual roles. Forced down the throats of workers and consumers. Used to collectively monitor everyone. Used to push more wealth to a concentrated few. Notably and constantly unreliable while given unearned trust. Not actually intelligent, just good at specific kinds of prediction and parroting based on training from real works from real people that was stolen without the consent of the creators to be fed into the machines to be plagiarized on request. A genuine risk to the stability of our economy. A nightmare for the mental health of children and those vulnerable to delusions and/or thoughts of self-harm. Increasingly used to replace thought and skill development making us collectively dumber and more reliant on it.

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- AWistfulNihilist@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I would argue star treks AI is constantly going wrong, and the fact that it can create objects which can actually harm you, is taken with a grain of salt by them.
  
  Holodecks are incredibly dangerous, easily hacked, and the holo style workers they they, like the doctor on Voyager, will IMMEDIATELY TURN EVIL WHEN YOU NEED WITH THEIR ETHICS SUBROUTINES!
  
  Their use is AI should be terrifying to us.
  
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Duamerthrax@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Star Trek is also a post scarcity society and they aren’t using water to run the models. IP ownership in the Federation is still a thing though, so long as the genAI isn’t using copyrighted material, it’s fine.

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- mojofrododojo@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  bet they aren’t built on LLMs either
  
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  - phx@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    There are a few episodes where various people mention putting a lot of time and wish into building holodeck sims. I’m guessing it’s more like having a futuristic version of Unity/UnrealE/etc, with a common asset pool and an AI assisted interface
    
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- The_Terrible_Humbaba@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I mean you can also run a generative modal locally using green energy, but try going into fuckai and telling them that.
  
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  - mojofrododojo@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    well yeah, some people care about the entire shit being built on theft. why wouldn’t you care about that?
    
    oh they didn’t steal from you. that’s why you don’t care.
    
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  - Evotech@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    They are just going to start discussing the ethics of stolen training data
    
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  - ChocolateFrostedSugarBombs@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    It’s a good thing that what kind of energy it runs on is the only problem with the technology and that we can cheaply generate the necessary amount of power at home.
    
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  - HerbGrower@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You can run it at home on your own local machine using solar power.
    
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- Einskjaldi@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The part about using real actors and people in simulated performances in movies after they’re dead is the same in holodeck and current cg/ai. Stephen Hawking was used, the real person consented to be on the tv show but the in show historical figure did not.
  
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  - Duamerthrax@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    There’s a difference between making a movie about an actor or other famous person and inserting an actor’s likeness into a movie that didn’t need it. If you become part of the cultural zeitgeist, people will talk about you. For an historic example of using someone’s likeness to sell a movie, you can look at Plan 9 from Outer Space and using footage of Bela Lugosi after he had died. That’s still considered bad taste. A new example is using including Tupac Shakur in the new Yakuza game AI or not, people aren’t exactly excited, but we’ll see what they do with it. Probably shouldn’t have used him in the trailer at least. There’s some gray areas with legacy characters in an on going franchise and whether or not you can find a look alike. I didn’t have a big issue with Tarkin being in Rouge One despite Peter Cushing being dead.
    
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db2@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
“Make an opponent capable of defeating Data”

ST AI: Have a supercharged Moriarty.

RL AI: deletes production database

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gastroglizzy@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Holodecks are generative AI that actually works.

All LLMs are Generative AI, but not all Generative AIs are LLMs.
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- restingOface@quokk.au ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  Holodecks are generative AI that actually works.
  
  They work until the plot dictates that they don’t.
  
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  - essell@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Doesn’t happen a lot.
    
    Only they don’t make episodes of the 99.99% of times they work perfectly.
    
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mechoman444@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I fucking hate holodecks.

They are dangerous, psychologically destructive machines that have no place on earth. We have no idea what prolonged exposure to simulated environments does to the human brain. People are spending hours inside fake worlds instead of interacting with reality. Children are probably going to grow up thinking consequences aren’t real because their parents let them spend twelve hours a day fighting robots in a simulated medieval castle.

And don’t even get me started on the fact that the computer can generate literally anything you ask for.

That is not progress. That is an existential threat to society.

So, naturally, I have volunteered to personally test every single holodeck in the world.

Every last one.

I will spend as much time as necessary inside these horrible, dangerous machines so that nobody else has to endure the terrible psychological consequences of using them.

You are welcome.

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- Furbag@pawb.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Stop qualityposting in my shitposting community!
  
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- mycodesucks@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Thank you for your service.
  
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- ILikeTraaaains@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
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gedaliyah@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Holodecks are discrete programs with subroutines.

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taiyang@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Perhaps we give it a pass in a post-scarcity world? When capitalism isn’t in the picture, it’s not taking jobs or ruining the environment or anything like that.

Although, you kinda still have to “write” a holodeck program and it also seems to be slightly harder than prompting or they’d be doing it on the fly a bit more.

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ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
It’s like fiction and reality are two different things.

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BigGovernment@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
The simplest answer, real world LLMs and AI are real, and holodecks are fictional. Plenty of things are cool in fiction and not something we should actually build.

See the classic tweet about the Torment Nexus.

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- TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  LLMs and AI are real
  
  I would say that the “AI” we currently have aren’t really AI as most people imagine or how they are thought depicted in science fiction.
  
  Intellect usually requires a capacity to think, understand, and at least mimic the way the mind learns. The current machine learning we currently call AI is more a kin to the classic Chinese Room thought experiment.
  
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  - TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You should check out a book named “Blindsight” by Peter Watts (and his side-sequel called “Echopraxia”). They delve into forms of intelligence that evolved completely separately from what we would consider ‘normal’. Also biologically-plausible vampires in space! Anyway, if you’re interested in splitting hairs between what really counts as AI I think you’d enjoy it. There’s even a passage that directly references the Chinese Room but if I say anything more I’ll spoil it. Plus it’s just a good book and a personal favorite of mine and I try to get as many people as possible to check it out 😆.
    
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- Madison420@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I mean lots of scifi directly relate holodecksb to a sketchy digital sex trafficking network.
  
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TheStaffmaster@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
TBF, even on TNG, there were characters who complain about how fake replicator food and synthahol are, and they have whole episodes on Holoaddiction.

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- Einskjaldi@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Replicator food can be identical but it’s also personally tuned for their nutrition and metabolism. The personal replicators and the bigger ones in ten forward aren’t programmed the same.
  
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JcbAzPx@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
No holodecks, or more accurately, the ship’s computer, are fantasy AI. Chatbots will never be so cool.

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- DoctorWhoDMC@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  There was this old book in my school classroom I remember that was speculating about the future; it had illustrations of robot butlers and maids helping people about the house in that 1960s-painting style. Think the future as seen in “The Jetsons”.
  
  That’s the “robot assistance” I was promised. So I’d say to my robot “Hey, can you turn the lights down?” And a humanoid robot would walk over to the light switch and turn the lights down.
  
  Of course, it turns out building robots like that is hugely expensive so it’s easier to just sell smart lights that connect to a voice-activated app on your phone and that’s just not the same dammit. There’s no whimsy.
  
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A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Listen here you little shit…

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xia@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Especially in “Schisms” (S6E5) where they build the operating table by trial and error… 100% feels like a modern ai imagegen workflow (only 3d and tangible).

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sirico@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Even in the future it breaks containment and endangers human life.

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Randelung@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Oh would you look at that, resources and copyright are less important in a literal post-scarcity universe where everything is shared freely! WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT!

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SCmSTR@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
About as cognitive as “nazis just love their country and people”

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mossberg590@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
How many times did a bad “prompt” nearly destroy the Enterprise? Kill a crew member? Commit sexual harassment, due lack of a better term?

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- cattywampas@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Or create a fully sentient and conscious mind just because you asked it to? Jesus, holodecks are scary.
  
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- icelimit@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  It’s part of the charm <3
  
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crandall@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I never got the impression that the holodeck (or Data) worked at all like an LLM.

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- themeatbridge@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  It doesn’t. An LLM uses modeling to approximate the shape of a question and generate a novel answer within the parameters. It’s like a shortcut to actually knowing everything and providing authoritative answers.
  
  Sort of like the Scrabble champion who won in Spanish and French despite not knowing those languages. He simply learned patterns of words he could build with letters, but he didn’t know the meaning of any of the words.
  
  The holodeck ostensibly has access to all of federation knowledge and history, and when it has to generate novel information (like what would Einstein say to Newton while playing poker) then it extrapolates that informtation based on the sum total of existing information. The holodeck computer has a thorough understanding of the question, the parameters, and the answers (holograms) it creates. It isn’t abstracting the question or approximating the shape of the answer.
  
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cattywampas@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Commander Maddox had a point. If Data was a box on wheels they would have shipped him off to be taken apart. But because he looked and sounded like a human everyone empathized with him.

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- restingOface@quokk.au ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  They seemed to empathize with the exocomps after realizing they had sentience. They were a little more complex than box on wheels, but a far cry from humanoid.
  
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  - cattywampas@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    And only after Data argued on their behalf. The organics themselves wouldn’t have cared.
    
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  - IpsumLauren@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    But they’re so cuuuuuute 😍 Look at them!
    
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- sundray@lemmus.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  It depends, what kind of tackle is that box on wheels working with?
  
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NathanRanch@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
No I don’t think it is. I don’t think you really understand what you’re claiming either.

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- sunbytes@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Agreed. It’s not a word-guessing machine, so that should be our first clue.
  
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SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Will Japanese holodeck programs have pixelation?

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_stranger_@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
The difference is that Starfleet has the ethical standards in place to make that technology non disruptive to their society. We wouldn’t survive being gifted ships that can glass the planet either.

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SlothMama@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I had this thought a long time ago. It’s not really wrong even.

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chronicledmonocle@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
If I could have generative AI make me a paradise world that I could escape to whenever I’m not making money to pay for the paradise world, I wouldn’t give AF. Also, Star Trek has Fusion and Matter/Anti-matter power generation that’s nearly entirely clean.

Unfortunately, the best our AI can do is make people with 6 fingers and write bad code while using all the water and electricity.

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cley_faye@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
There’s a handful of differences, I’ll leave other point them out.

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- JustAnotherKay@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Is there? It’s a machine, which learns and autonomously makes decisions based on that learning. It generates a scene.
  
  I dunno, sounds like genAI to me, albeit a handful of generations down the line
  
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Labna@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Wrong, the holodeck follow instructions, the AI neural simulation don’t.

Unless you like to play in simulation created by a simulation, coded with an abstract language, run into a virtual machine.
At some point in time, humanity will learn.

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otacon239@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Now this might have something to do with what they mean when they disable safeguards. Maybe there’s a layer of user-defined limits that are carefully defined, but when safeguards are disabled, it just runs as a raw universe simulation, matter, photons and all.

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*Throws grenade and runs*

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Throws grenade and runs