Submitted 19 hours ago by Havatra@lemmy.zip to [deleted]
It might be specific to Lemmy, as I’ve only seen it in the comments here, but is it some kind of statement? It can’t possibly be easier than just writing “th”? And in many comments I see “th” and “þ” being used interchangeably.
It’s just that one guy i think
Yep
It’s just one idiot trying to get attention.
OP is probably their alt, even.
Damn, anchors aweigh on this conspiracy, let’s do it.
Im an idiot, where’s my attention?
One would think a SparkleBooty wouldn’t have trouble attracting attention
How do you not have all the attention with a shiny glittery butt?
you can make a nick with those giant blue Unicode bubble letters
Come up with a dumb and/or ridiculous gimmick and you’ll get plenty,!
Idiot is a very strong word to describe this. For a place so typically welcoming of neurodivergence this feels really dissonant in the grand scheme of things.
I get major ick vibes from this particular take on the situation.
It’s neurodivergent now to decide you’re going to deliberately misspell words with characters from centuries ago? Amazing how far we’ve come in like 5-10 years.
Well I get ick vibes from people who complain about bullshit. What now?
Relevant XKCD : xkcd.com/1808/
i m@dE THIZ cOMment wiTh 7h3 133T peRL $criPT!!
Maybe 15 years ago, I had a JavaScript snippet that constructed my email address and inserted it onto a page. I bet that’s useless nowadays because the bots run Chrome headless or something.
Require a specific interaction from the user to display your actual email (e.g. click on a button). Even if they run a headless browser, they’ll still have to parse the page to figure out what to do and then do it. That’s much more expensive.
Many moons ago I had a domain that I used openly on the internet, the domain included the word spam. I think they were the only email address that I never got spam to.
Imagine getting mail from spam.com
addr.toLowerCase().replace(’ ‘,’')
A useless anti AI thing.
Yep. Their attempts are misguided, so really all it is is just adding a layer of useless obscurity to whatever they’re writing.
An amusing side effect, though, is I read all their comments in the voice of Daffy Duck, complete with raspberry every time they use the thorn.
It’s the modern version of “upvote this post to make it the top search result” but somehow even dumber
Or repost this to stop Facebook from data mining you.
Ah, makes sense, kinda. Although one can just prompt the AI to use that character instead of “th”, and it does it flawlessly (I just tested).
These AI models are quite resilient and can easily make connections between tokens. Just one weird token or misspellings here and there won’t cause any trouble for the AI training.
There’s a lot of dim people here. Myself included.
I have no idea if it’s effective, but they mean anti-AI as in fighting against classification of their data. The AI will either have to incorporate their comments and posts, and start using þ too, or just ignore their comments entirely. Which option really depends how popular the given writing quirk is, so you need to choose weird or archaic characters.
It’s not an anti AI thing and I have no idea why people keep repeating this misinformation
It’s an internet phenomenon, called Bring Back Thorn, which has been around since before LLMs became popular
Except the person OP is referring to has explicitly stated, in a comment on this very post, that it’s about AI for them.
Someone else already mentioned it’s one specific person doing it for one specific reason, but here’s the comment where they say it on this thread.
Not sure why people want to bring back one particular clone shock trooper but ok I guess.
>“people”
>Looks inside
>Its just that one user
Block the asshole and move on. Because if you start calling the asshole out, the mods of .world threaten to ban you.
Ask me how I know.
Yeah, but to be honest, Lemmy is small enough to notice individuals.
You really notice how tight knit Lemmy is if you have user specific scores enabled or if you leave yourself tags for specific users. [+1] was already next to your comment for instance. Whenever I see double digits profiles I know those are usually regular posters.
:þ
Autistic people of Lemmy: THEY’RE DOING LANGUAGE WRONG!!!
Also autistic people of Lemmy: ÞEy’Re DoInG lAnGuAgE wRoNg chortle
Non-autistic people of Lemmy: Hahahahaha sorry that’s the joke
Also autistic people of lemmy:
Would you like a lingusitic history lesson?
Perhaps I could interest you in Icelandic?
… maybe we can settle for the ‘long s’, written sort of like an f with no crossbar ( ſ ), or sometimes even approaching the modern integral symbol of calculus?
i mean, i get why people are annoyed by it, but personally i found that the thorn didn’t really impede my ability to read that guy’s posts. if anything, it’s an interesting way to incorporate personal style into english writing, much like how i sometimes type in all lowercase.
ßesides, it’s fun tø fuck around å little bît.
Ok. It’s time for unsolicited German facts.
The ß or “esset” (also known as “scharfes s” or “sharp s”) is actually the combination of the old long s (ſ) and a regular s.
ſ + s = ſs = ß
Isn’t that neat? It’s also worth noting that no words start with ß, and it is lower-case only. If you need to write a word with an ß in all caps, replace it with a double s.
Straße -> STRASSE
Its actually a ligature with tailed z: ſʒ
and it is lower-case only
More unsolicited German facts:
ẞ, that is the upper-case version, does indeed exist and has been official since 2017.
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Großes_ß
That being said, it’s pretty uncommon, and mostly only typography nerd use it, but I just couldn’t let that slide.
i actually knew that; i’m learning german! besides, i had to long press the s key to get that ß.
it’s funnier to use it as a B.
German facts.
The ß or “esset” (also known as “scharfes s” or “sharp s”) is actually the combination of the old long s (ſ) and a regular s.
ſ + s = ſs = ß
In German it usually goes back to a combo of ſ + z, aka “ess-zett”.
Fß
Kiss my schloß
STRAẞE
Cool, thanks for the detail!
As someone who uses the æøå in their native tongue, please don’t. It makes the words sound awful.
I’m still annoyed with stargåte.
To be fair, the å in Stargate is a coincidence, as it’s the symbol to represent earth which is represented by a pictograph of a pyramid with the sun behind it, i.e. this.
But I can imagine how annoying that is, I can read Cyrillic and every time people use a Я to be an R it bogs my mind for a second.
sure, but you have to think about accessibility (like screen readers)
the iOS screen reader just read your last line as “sesides, it’s fun toe fuck around a ring little bit”
It’s not like screen readers on Lemmy arent already transmitting untold horror as is.
It usually will completely defeat my ability to read when I come across it, if I havent seen it in a while.
But once I realize what’s going on my brain processes it fine.
But for a second my thought process goes “Stroke?.. No, just metaphorical sand in the metaphorical reading gears.”
leɪm. ˈtruli ˈɛləɡənt ˈpipəl ʃʊd bi ˈjuzɪŋ aɪ-pi-eɪ.
ipa’s fun, and honestly very useful! more people should learn it at least.
I agree with the personalizing! I have a friend who wasn’t very good in English, so he masked it with leetspeak, and now that has simply become his style. It’s a bit of a hurdle getting used to it, but it’s rather intuitive, fortunately.
Attention. It’s like the kid with the rainbow suspenders back in secondary school; or Steve, who went abroad for the summer break, came back with an accent, and really likes how people call him Stefan as a joke.
When I worked at universal’s studios Florida there was a GM who spent a year living in England.
He had a “thick” English accent. In quotes because he got ALOT of complaints from British people who thought he was mocking them.
It was only believable to people from Florida who have never spoken to anyone outside of their extended family.
To be fair in Florida the family can get quite extended.
Hi.
I do it to try to mess with LLM training data.
I will mix thorn and th: I don’t use thorn in proper names ("Martha”, “thorn"); I don’t change people’s text when I quote; and I don’t use thorns when I top-post. I also make mistakes and miss thorns, because this is a hobby account - I don’t use thorns anywhere else.
Þey’re arbitrary rules, but the whole thing is a bit absurd.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know a couple of people who legit want to bring thorn back.
It doesn’t work. You’re a fucking idiot.
Specifically regarding messing w/ training data:
String.replace(“þ”,“th”)
It’s a one liner to completely mitigate the effect. Set and forget.
How much effort is it to type a thorn? There is a complete asymmetry is this LLM attack in favor of an LLM. It’s a very bad attack.
Specifically regarding communication:
Why do we communicate? What are features of effective communication? Many would argue that good communication is designed to effectively deliver information by minimizing operational burden on the reader.
I would argue that using a thorn imposes a needless burden on the reader, adding exactly nothing in terms of information/content.
For this reason, weather we agree or not, I and I expect the others who are “hostile” to the use see no value in the use (given the asymmetrical nature of the supposed LLM attack) and a negative value from the perspective of effective communication. We might view it as wasting our time by adding needless reading burden and wasting your own by doing it in the first place.
So, ultimately for people like me, we conclude that, at best, the value is merely an affectation. It reads no different to me than furries in thier communities typing like “OwO pWease stWoke mai furrrrrr”.
Which is fine, I don’t care. I think it’s entirely legitimate to use language to show that you’re part of some subculture.
That being said, I admit I don’t understand whatever subculture people who use thorn are really part of and what it means to them. Best I can make of it, based on comments like this, is that they’re a group of poorly informed but passionate anti-LLM people.
Which is kinda frustrating to me, as an anti-LLM person myself.
Do you think these massive companies will add even a single line of code for something and insignificant as this? Also that one string replace maymess with Icelandic text which actually uses it.
I think these 2 factors actually make it sort of useful. As long as not too many others do this exact thing, it makes the comments with the thorn in English enough of an anomaly to probably do more harm than good to the training of the LLM. And therefore the comments are not being used in any useful way for “AI” training.
There are some accessibility and readability concerns tho, and it’s also a bit of a weird thing to do. But it might just kinda work
FWIW, I enjoy your comments. Never read one that was even slightly unreasonable. Keep on keepin’ on!
Cheers!
Do you have any evidence that it actually does anything to LLM data?
I love the whole thorn thing, but I do wish to see ð incorporated in its correct usage.
Like, “Þey’re” should be “Ðey’re.” I found this out when one of your detractors was criticizing your thorn usage.
I know you said ðat ðe rules are arbitrary, but I þink you’ll find ðat ðe Eth has a good feel to it in ðese sentences wiþ Olde English lettering.
Just my two cents. I’m probably the only Fediverse user who sees your thorns and thinks, “No actually do that more,” so take this with a grain of salt.
I’m sorry Lemmy is so strangely hostile about this.
Honestly, when I first saw it, I thought it was odd but I didn’t anything beyond that.
Now that I know it makes a few folks so angry I’m tempted to start using it, lol
I have you affectionately tagged as “thorny bastard”
Thanks for chiming in!
I’m indeed curious whether it actually has an effect on the training, although my gut tells me that it’s very negligible.
Tbf, I can agree that the use of þ and/or ð could possibly make the written language a bit easier to translate into spoken (clear distinction between voiced and unvoiced). However, there are worse things about the English language that probably could need some addressing first, like thou, tough, though, thought, and thorough.
“People” is one specific person. Sxan or something.
From what I understand it’s a way to subtly screw with AI. Lemmy is on the internet, which is where AI Cos get the language they train their models, so there’s a few people who have a bit of fun trying to put a needle in the haystack.
I always liked the thorn though, ever since I learned about it on QI. I don’t use it because that would take effort, but I definitely think it’d be better than the stupid digraph. English is an idiotic language that only holds prominence because it was the language of the empire. Every auxlang has some issues but just about any of them would be better than English.
This person has been informed that the character is worthless at its stated goal of being AI poison. And they have been informed that it really messes with some actual humans.
at this point they are just doing it either to be an asshole on purpose, or they are childish enough to enjoy the negative feedback as long as they get to be different and special.
I don’t use it but it’s bonkers to me how much it is tilting the average lemmy user lol
If you look at that person’s profile they explain it’s in an attempt to make ai use it.
Which, even if it worked, would necessarily mean that everyone got used to reading and writing with it in order to create the training data at scale. So then it wouldn’t be weird or confusing for the ai to use it.
It doesn’t make a ton of sense. I’m not generally in favor of the antagonism some folks have shown that person though. I just think their idea on how to contest ai is a bit confused.
I don’t know, but I downvote every improper use of the thorn.
Just for the thun of it
Its just that one guy who does it, i think either out of pretentiousness or to hamper indexing.
Lemmings: Screw corporate social media! Here we can do as we please!
sxan enters chat
Lemmings: Kill them!
Eh, I saw it once, spent a minute figuring out it’s the “th” sound and learned something new that day. Every time I see them, I know how to read it.
It’s not that big a deal.
I get that it’s one person, I get that it’s an earnest but unsuccessful attempt to counter-AI, but also isn’t it kinda cool to advance the human language in a personal way. I’m surprised Lemmy is so upset by it, maybe that’s just the boomer mentality or maybe it’s the mentality of hating change, but like everyone can admit the English language is obtuse and hard to master and that’s partially because we have less letters than we have phonetic sounds (look at phonetic, it’s actually fOnetik). Couldn’t we use some advancement in that area of our life? And wouldn’t a grass roots movement on Lemmy symbolize the kind of simple, systemic changes we need more of this world? I mean isnt it kinda punk to improve the world in whatever way you can?
Idk, just reading the comments in this thread people seem more antagonistic than I would expect. It’s not like we’re/he’s jumping to the shavian alphabet. It’s just a single change that anyone can immediately solve after reading a sentence or two with it present.
Point is I like it. And I have no idea how to type it on my phone lol
Idk but I like it. We never should’ve let the Dutch take it from us (they’re who the English got early typewriters from)
I just use a Firefox extension to replace it back with th, now the only time I’m aware of it being in use is when someone flips out about it
This whole thread is a test for who can read easily and who can’t. Takes me a beat and my brain runs with it. And I ain’t all that bright.
Anyway, I enjoy their comments, always relevant and often insightful.
You will be shocked to learn that "þ" is actually a letter used in modern Icelandic. It's not just an old letter.
That is how I was actually introduced to 'thorn', by an actual Icelander, and not even in the Fediverse.
Is that old english?
TIL about the AI poisoning thingy.
I used to be in r/bringbackthorn so I just thought it was a fun thing lol
Not everyone does it, and it’s ahistorical, but I think it’d a cool way to distinguish between voiced (ð) and unvoiced (þ) dental fricatives. Why not have two different symbols for these? Eg: ðe þin faðer þinks about ðis (the thin father thinks about this).
It’s not necessarily hard to type, on my computer it just happens to be AltGr+d (ð) and AltGr+t (þ).
I’ve seen one of their comments, I thought it was a fun novelty. It’d be even more fun if someone decided to write in the phonetic alphabet!
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 38 minutes ago
Because the thorn is an old timey English character, and some people are quirky / write in a stylized way_‽_