Comments

• socsa@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Hey I studied this in grad school for a bit, and it really is just "someone does some dumb shit which leads to a cascading wave of additional people doing dumb shit which propagates backwards for miles." Basically when the offered load is getting close to the maximum load, all it takes is one person aggressively changing lanes to throw that section of highway into gridlock, and it will remain that way until the total integrated traffic flux across that incident boundary again falls below the critical offered load inflection point.

  Basically, pick a lane and just stay in it. Maintain proper following distance. Counterintuitively, the following distance should be for the speed you want to drive, so even in traffic it should be like 5+ car lengths even though you are going slow. This is because it reduces the offered load, and once that number falls below the critical point, speeds will increase again. Bumper to bumper traffic basically prevents that from happening because it dampens the ability for a "speedup" wave to propagate.

  Of course this is all impossible for humans. All it takes is a few idiots to throw off the balance.

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  • Takios@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    so even in traffic it should be like 5+ car lengths even though you are going slow.

    Other drivers: “It’s free real estate”

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• YoSoySnekBoi@kbin.earth ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Most traffic jams actually act as a kind of compression wave moving backwards through traffic. Something as small as a squirrel running across the road can cascade into an hour-long jam.

  One person brakes, then the person behind them, then the person behind them, but each time they are getting closer to each other (nobody stays equidistant from the car in front of them when braking). This causes a greater and greater slowdown as more cars are compacted into a tighter space, which travels backwards in traffic like a wave. Often the person who caused it doesn't even realize anything happened.

  A lot of mapping software actually estimates a given traffic slowdown by treating traffic as a fluid with a wave moving backwards through it.

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  • kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    That’s also why the best way to relieve traffic is to go at a slow even pace without braking. Every time the someone runs up the ass of another car and brakes hard, or swerves into the “faster” lane and make someone else brake to not hit them, they cause another brake wave. If you have a few cars intentionally just hanging back and cruising with a big enough gao between them and the cars jocking in front of them, then their brake waves do not propogate behind you and eventually traffic just picks up pace again.

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    • OR3X@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Yeah, in theory it’s great but every time I try it people just cut in front of me then slam in brakes causing me to have to brake then adjust then repeat ad nauseam. People suck.

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    • socsa@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Right, if you think about the creation of traffic as a negative speed wave which causes compression, and traffic alleviation as a positive speed wave which requires rarefaction, then it becomes clear why traffic is so stubborn. When people are so bunched together, no positive speed wave can propagate. Which is why you literally get to to the point where the original idiot slammed on the brakes and the traffic magically disintegrates. If everyone stayed 5 car lengths apart in traffic, that alleviation would actually propagate backwards as fast as the initial congestion.

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    • HalifaxJones@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Californians te the worst drivers in the world because none of them understand this simple concept. Every day I’m driving, I give more than enough space in front of me for someone to cut me off and I don’t have to brake. It’s simple. However, I’m constantly getting people riding my ass. Switching around me. And being over all menaces just because I’m leaving a roper gap between myself and the car in front of me. It’s wild.

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    • Omgpwnies@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Adaptive cruise control FTW. Matches speed with the person ahead of me (up to the max that I set) and maintains a gap that I can specify. It starts slowing down long before I’d notice the gap closing if I were doing it myself, so the +/- acceleration is a lot smoother as a result.

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    • WanderingThoughts@europe.pub ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Nicely demonstrated here: youtu.be/Suugn-p5C1M

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    • brbposting@sh.itjust.works ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Preach truth, Krypty

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  • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Image

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  • Sibbo@sopuli.xyz ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Do you know of a paper that describes this kind of traffic motion?

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    • oddlyqueer@lemmy.ml ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Here’s the (abstract of the) paper I was thinking of pubsonline.informs.org/doi/abs/…/opre.4.1.42

      Appalling that I can’t find a free version of a 70 year old paper. You might be able to find the full text somewhere… I would of course never encourage anything that might run afoul of the scientific publishing protection racket.

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    • oddlyqueer@lemmy.ml ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I couldn’t find the paper I was thinking of that described the phenomenon of traffic propagating as a pressure wave, but I did find this paper (new to me) that describes a model for simulating how congestion spreads in urban environments (as opposed to an isolated highway, which IIRC the paper that most people reference models). It does have the full text available though, and it looks like a good read and has references that should get you going on the history of congestion research.

      I am not an expert; I just found this with a few minutes of searching. If there are experts with better papers I’d be happy to hear from ya!

      www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-15353-2.pdf

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    • kubica@fedia.io ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I knew about the elastic band effect, but I was unsure if it was considered the same. But searching that I found about both:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accordion_effect

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_wave

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  • WhiteOakBayou@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    In one of the Mission Impossible movies Tom Cruise is supposed to have a boring job no one will ask him about and the movie shows this by having the character talk about traffic patterns. I thought it was interesting information then and think it is interesting now.

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    • marzhall@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Lmao I remember seeing this exact scene as a kid, thinking as he was talking “oh that sounds cool as fuck” and then only from how the scene played out realizing it was supposed to be a significantly boring concept

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    • frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      It’s a great cover story until he meets someone at a party who loves that shit.

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• Stamets@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Only ever have to ask, my friend

  Heres an overview shot of a traffic pulse.

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  • Hikermick@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    It happens when people tailgate. They over react and it causes an according effect.

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    • NikkiDimes@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Or when people drive too aggressively and cut someone off, causing them to slam on their brake.

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  • Lemminary@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Iirc, the answer is to have someone drive slowly and let other cars pass. It creates a buffer zone that regulates the flow back to normal pace. Or at least that’s what I remember from New Scientist’s video from like a decade ago.

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    • untorquer@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I used to just idle when traffic moved. Slowed down way before i was even close to the car ahead. Played a game where i was trying to move at a constant speed or max fuel econ. Much less stressful to always be moving than gas/brake every 10s, even if you’re moving 5mph.

      Really helps to look 3-4 cars ahead for brake lights.

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    • HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      not slowly, just leave room

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  • Jax@sh.itjust.works ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Nope that’s just a negative picture of a guy

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• bitwolf@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  It all starts with someone in the passing lane, not passing, and one or more pissed off people behind them :)

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  • dingus@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Yeah I drive around 3 hours on the highway every several weeks. Sometimes on my drive, there’s obviously traffic. A lot of times it will be something like rush hour traffic, a crash, construction, etc.

    But then like…a good portion of the time when I come to the very front of the “clog”, I find that it is just a blockade of multiple people going incredibly slowly and taking up all lanes of traffic, refusing to move over despite the fact that they are going under the speed limit.

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• Korhaka@sopuli.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  People drive too close to each other, someone has to slow down and then the car behind slows down a bit more. Repeat until you get to the point someone completely stops. Then the next car stops for slightly longer.

  If you leave a safe distance then it wouldn’t happen.

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• PhobosAnomaly@feddit.uk ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  A few years ago, I was bitching and moaning about a jam, and my pal just said “you’re not in traffic, you are traffic”.

  I know it’s nothing more than a cheeky soundbite but just reframing it like that and knowing I’m part of the problem rather than the exception has made me a lot calmer on slow moving roads.

  Plus it has encouraged me to either use public transport more, or just drive to a park-and-ride a mile or three out, and run the rest - facilities permitting of course.

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  • Battle_Masker@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    “No John, YOU are the traffic!”

    And then John was traffic

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    • BlackVenom@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Traffic John is what they called him.

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  • bobs_monkey@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I still lose it when I finally get to the front of the jam, and the only reason for said jam is because everyone is stopping to look at an accident on the OTHER SIDE OF THE HIGHWAY.

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    • PhobosAnomaly@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Yeah, it’s frustrating.

      I’m not entirely sure what the rubberneckers want to see either. “Oh look, someone critically injured next to someone who is likely deceased”, because that isn’t a day ruiner at the best of times.

      Odd.

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  • Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Switch to a motorbike, then you can experience righteous anger at the handful of drivers slowing down hundreds of bikes and people in buses.

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    • PhobosAnomaly@feddit.uk ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Funnily enough, I’m planning on getting my licence at some point.

      I’ve no interest in motorbikes, I would just love to learn how to ride one safely.

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  • Mrkawfee@feddit.uk ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Yeah that was a through the matrix moment for me too.

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• l_isqof@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  You are thr traffic.

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• SreudianFlip@sh.itjust.works ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  3 fucking seconds

  The answer is a simple 3 second gap.

  That’s it, just 3-mississippi (or 3-onethousand) seconds behind the car in front of you and most of the avoidable jams go away.

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  • merc@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    If you do that, someone will move into the gap. If someone moves into the gap you can slow down to make another gap to them, but then someone else will drive into that gap. I don’t know of any major city where you can maintain a 3 second gap during rush hour.

    Even worse, if you ever brake to try to create a gap, you’re likely to cause a traffic jam behind you.

    Sure, if everybody did follow the suggestion and allowed a 3 second gap you wouldn’t have traffic jams, but that’s just not human nature, apparently.

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    • SreudianFlip@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      You attribute an uneducated, uncivil approach to human nature, but I have been in human queues around the world, and they vary hugely based on cultural and social differences.

      What you think is human nature seems to actually be driving culture in your region.

      Yesterday I had a swasticar driver actually let me in on a disorderly merge. I was amazed, it was a first. Clue: nothing about Hondas changes people to be better. Tesla and BMW drivers are just shittier at sharing. This is culturally allowed.

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    • plyth@feddit.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Teach people to drive on the right lane unless they want to overtake somebody. Whoever overtakes you on the left won’t drive into the gap because they also want to overtake whoever is driving in front of you.

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    • NikkiDimes@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      You’re totally right. It’s a social/culture issue. You doing this isn’t going to do shit. Everyone has to miraculously decide to come together to solve the problem with no one taking advantage. It’s the same reason we can’t do anything about climate change.

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  • CannedYeet@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Except the person next to you or behind you gets frustrated and cuts you off and you have to hit the brakes and create a traffic pulse.

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    • SreudianFlip@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Well yes, society functions only with cooperation. Uncivil behaviour ends with violence and dismay.

      However 3s usually allows for slow adjustments which alleviate caterpillaring.

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• ThePantser@sh.itjust.works ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  It’s the people not zipper merging correctly. You have idiots entering that are not up to speed and you have idiots breaking for the idiots not up to speed.

  On ramps should be required to have their lane not end abruptly which causes the panic. The on ram should continue for at least a 1/4 mile.

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  • eatCasserole@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I’ve literally seen a test with 4 cars driving around a circle, and they tell the drivers, “go at a consistent speed and maintain the distance in front of you” and after 5 minutes they’re all bunched up on one side of the circle. No amount of zipper merging and nice ramps will fix this.

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  • chuckleslord@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Cars cause traffic. Cars changing lanes causes traffic. Cars merging causes traffic. Only solution, get rid of the cars and the system built to cater to them.

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    • eatCasserole@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      This is the correct answer. There isn’t a city on earth that has fixed congestion by building for more cars. It’s the places that build for trains and bikes that are best for driving, ironically.

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  • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    people not zipper merging correctl

    Zipper merging is more complicated than driving straight forward and requires both lanes to slow down significantly relative to the cars in front and behind them.

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    • FireRetardant@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      The biggest issue with zipper merging is humans need to not be selfish for it to work. Its very efficient when moving well and everyone is in turn, as soon as 1 asshole sneaks in or prevents a merge, it causes the entire flow to stop.

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  • Gork@sopuli.xyz ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Adding to this, more collector-distributor roads that parallel the highway on both sides to reduce the weaving of people entering and exiting.

    This is also why I hate cloverleaf highway intersections, the merge period is way too short and the speed delta can be high.

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    • PlexSheep@infosec.pub ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Just one more road bro it will fix traffic

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  • Rhaedas@fedia.io ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    The best flowing highways I've ever seen were ones where the on ramp didn't end, but became the off ramp for the next exit. Obviously you can't have that everywhere, but it's basically a free flow lane that gives time for adjustment. I've also seen on ramps (older ones) that aren't much more than a turn lane, and dangerous if you don't know the area and traffic patterns.

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    • bananaslug4@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      The issue with this style of lane design is it basically doubles the amount of lane changes that lane experiences, which can make it the most dangerous possible space if exits are close together. I’ve lived around Dallas. It’s scary.

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    • FireRetardant@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      My area kinda has this except the on ramp ends quickly merging into the right lane, then the off ramp starts almost immediately after. It makes traffic worse as cars trying to get on cannot merge effectively because cars want to be in that lane to exit. I find the best flow is having the off ramp before the on ramp, which minimizes right lane conflicts.

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  • merc@sh.itjust.works ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    idiots breaking

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• iAmTheTot@sh.itjust.works ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  99% of traffic like this is caused by people following too closely.

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  • 9tr6gyp3@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Yeah ideally you put 3 seconds between you and the car in front of you. Gives a nice, springy cushion.

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    • Rhaedas@fedia.io ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I've always said that if you're using your brakes on the highway and it's not for an emergency stop, you're too close to the car in front of you. Even if they're the type that are on and off the brake constantly, if their speed isn't changing much you shouldn't need to follow their example. Of course I try to get out from behind them because they are like crying wolf and one of those brakes might be for real.

      When caught in a traffic jam I look for a semi to get behind. They won't accelerate fast like some car drivers do, and they don't stop as fast either. Plus they can see better if things area really starting to move or not. Keep a few car lengths behind them and while everyone is doing the start and stop motions, I'm keeping a slow but steady speed usually without needing to brake at all. It's also less stressful.

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    • merc@sh.itjust.works ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      If you’re in traffic (i.e. if you are part of the traffic) and you leave a 3 second gap between you and the car in front of you, another car will drive into that gap. If you back off to create another 3 second gap, it will happen again. Even worse, if you hit the brakes to create that three second gap, even if it’s very lightly, you might cause an even worse traffic jam behind you.

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    • iAmTheTot@sh.itjust.works ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Too many people were taught, and still teach, the “two car’s length” rule. Which is awful. 2 to 3 seconds is much better and intuitive to figure out.

      You say 3, which is great, but I’d settle for 2. Most people on the highways around me leave more like 0.5; I sincerely think the vast majority of people greatly overestimate the amount of space in front of them to the next car.

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• lightnsfw@reddthat.com ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  The people at the front are morons and probably in the wrong lane.

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  • NikkiDimes@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    You don’t like driving 55 in the passing lane? You get such a great view of everyone flipping you off!

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• badbytes@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Reaction times of humans.

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• infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  It’s usually a complex crowd effect created by many participants trying to maneuver among each other in slightly disperate ways.

  In Portland OR, it really is because some dingbat slowed down to 20 MPH on the interstate for literally no fucking reason at all.

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  • MrQuallzin@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Taking I-5 into Vancouver from Portland is always horrific. Once you get over the bridge it always clears right up! A big part of that is all the on ramps. There’s so many of them! So everybody is having to make way every 10 feet for someone merging in.

    It’s horrendous.

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    • infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Yeah they could probably stand to lose the more southern of the two ramp sets at Delta Park, feels very extra and overall unhelpful. Of course ODOT’s solution, beyond replacing the bridge, is to widen I-5 south of the bridge - Which anyone with a brain and 50 years of highway traffic studies can tell us would directly contribute to worsening the problem.

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  • blarghly@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Often they do this because their car is barely limping along and they are trying to make it to the next exit.

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    • infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      This driver is distinct from that driver. We definitely have those too, and they have my sympathies. But this driver is the one who just thinks to themself that it would be nice to go slow for a while, on a lark. Or they don’t think at all and in that brief 15 seconds of brain death their nerves stop sending signals to their foot to press the gas.

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• Sam_Bass@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Traffic is a “thing” because the slowest common perambulator is always in front

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• bobo1900@startrek.website ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  CGP grey did a video on it: www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE

  Basically one car breaking too much will make the following brake even more and so on until one stops and there’s a jam. There is no clear reason like a road blockage or an accident, just compounding slow down.

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  • merc@sh.itjust.works ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Basically one car breaking too much will make the following brake

    If the car in front of me started breaking, I’d definitely get out of the way.

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  • kameecoding@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I’d recommend this video as a response to that one, cgp greys video is technically correct and fucking dumb at the same time

    youtu.be/oafm733nI6U

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• psx_crab@lemmy.zip ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  They called it “ghost jam” but man, i prefer blackberry jam.

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  • danc4498@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Too many seeds. I’m more of a jam band kinda guy.

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  • HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    marionberry or nothing

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• Gustephan@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  www.mdpi.com/2076-3417/11/9/4278

  TLDR: modeling traffic as a gas leads to fairly accurate predictions. If that doesnt mean anything to you, here’s a decent visualization of how gasses move around in a system. In this analogy, each of the gas particles models a car on the road. youtu.be/Hr5Baj3lXFA

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• DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Its because of two things. One is that people hog the passing lane or try to pass slowly so it takes them a few minutes to overtake a few cars, and also because people drive at different speeds. Some people drive at the speed that feels comfortable, orhers drive the state imposed speed limit. This creates pockets of dense traffic, and then people try to pass, but there is always the person who fries to pass as slow as possible because they are going a few mtoh over the speed limit already.

  Its really just a bad combination of laws, and drivers who are terrified of breaking the law, and people who dont know how to drive correctly in a way to reduce traffic. Also mamy people are just never consider that others also need to use the roads.

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  • NikkiDimes@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Hey, if you have some physical limitation or just aren’t comfortable going faster, that’s 100% fine. Stay the hell in the right lane and never leave it, thanks lol

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• justme@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Similar to en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbulence The gist of it is that once you reach critical density people can not drive homogenously anymore and (de-) accelerate constantly to not bump into the next car. The problem could be alleviated with self driving cars which negotiate a uniform speed.

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  • YtA4QCam2A9j7EfTgHrH@infosec.pub ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    The problem is solved by connecting all the cars, and putting them on rails that are electrified. This way you move fuel off site, and the cars are synced by the connection.

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• TomMasz@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Years ago I was in LA on business and ended up on I-5. All of a sudden traffic stopped dead. Eventually people were getting out of their cars and walking around. About a half-hour later, traffic started up again. We never saw what was responsible for the blockage. No wreckage, no obvious marks or debris on the pavement, nothing. I’m glad I live in a small city nowhere near California.

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• lemming741@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  George Carlin explains it pretty simply

  m.youtube.com/watch?v=XWPCE2tTLZQ

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• iThinkDifferentThanU@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  slow speeds cause accidents, not speed, the sudden stop, cause of some inbred driver

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• abbiistabbii@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  basically it’s a thing with cars where if a single car slows down for any reason, even slightly, it causes a cascade effect that leads to traffic jams.

  Yet another reason why cars suck.

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• ieatpwns@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Bumper riders Lane switchers Brake checkers Ramp users switching lanes wayyy too late

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• ininewcrow@lemmy.ca ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  It’s all a mad rush of people trying to get to where they don’t want to be as fast as possible

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• UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Idk why they call it a bottleneck, when it’s a straight line through the opening of the bottle.

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• ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  People changing lanes

  If everyone stuck to the driving lane and only moved over to pass one car in front of them then there’d be less.

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