You have encountered Gnostic thought (and related heresies!) The Gnostics believed that the God of the Christian Old Testament was actually Satan all along. It is an interesting rabbit hole to fall down into.
Satan Was The Good Guy This Whole Time?
Submitted 1 day ago by OriginEnergySux@lemmy.world to [deleted]
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/6bff026f-9440-4bc2-9527-eed196fc6e4e.jpeg
Comments
rowansprig@leminal.space 1 day ago
zikzak025@lemmy.world 1 day ago
It’s interesting to think of the world religions that could have been, had the scales of power dipped in different directions. Gnosticism is an interesting take on Abrahamic religions, almost like a blend of Christianity and Buddhism.
There were even literal Greek Buddhists before there were Greek Christians. Christianity as we know it might not have survived without the original Greek drafts of the New Testament. There’s another universe out there where the eastern Greco-Romans were way too busy with the karmic cycle and achieving enlightenment to worry about the execution of some random guy with daddy issues in the desert.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 day ago
Yeah I’m pretty sure the giant Buddha statue that the Taliban blew up in Afghanistan several years ago was Greek work.
There are also plenty of accounts from (I think) the Abassid empire where Greeks and Buddhists were both present in Baghdad at the same time. I forget why that ended, maybe because of the Seljuks or the Mongols, can’t remember.
And of course, there’s an account in the Buddhist canon of a philosophical debate between a buddhist monk (Nagasena) and a Greek king named Menander (Milinda in Pali), which took place in the first or second century BC.
But damn… thinking about a world where Greco-Buddhism became the religion of the West… what could’ve been, eh?
RickyRigatoni@piefed.zip 1 day ago
God that sounds like such a better world.
saimen@feddit.org 1 day ago
Some say Jesus was actually influenced a lot by Buddhist philosophy or even has been to India
spankysalmon@fedinsfw.app 1 day ago
Who says that was a different universe? You should understand by now how history frequently forgets such peaceful people in favor of the authoritarian de jure.
Turns out, humanity and its ilk hell bent on insisting they’re so important are just cancer. Pure and simple. Terminal cancer we’re all watching take hold.
NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de 1 day ago
Well, I’m not not gnostic. Or aagnostic, if you will.
AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Austrian Agricultural Nostic?
AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Ok, so now I’m wondering if Milton read the Gnostic texts. I’m still amazed that the church approved the publication of Paradise Lost, much less Paradise Regained.
DigDoug@lemmy.world 1 day ago
That would explain a lot of historical (and recent) behaviour by many Christians.
Ghis@lemmy.world 2 hours ago
God flooded the zone
Doom@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
This is why they don’t want people reading. Literacy will have you picking apart common narratives and questioning interpretations of the bullshit those in power have spoon fed you your entire life.
thermal_shock@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
The fact it was edited down to condone owning people is diabolical and should be a perfect reason to hate religion.
Linken@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
I never understood how in 2,000 years or whatever, after all the translations and obvious edits for personal gain, no one thought to change the name of the tree from “The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.”
God forbidding (lol) Adam and Eve from seeking knowledge automatically puts him in the bad camp.
chiliedogg@lemmy.world 13 hours ago
Real answer: It’s not that knowledge is itself evil. It’s that by obtaining the knowledge of good and evil, mankind was responsible for its actions.
The idea is that animals aren’t capable of being good or evil because they have no knowledge of the concept. Whereas humanity’s knowledge and understanding means we’re aware of the morality of our actions.
To put it in a more contemporary, non-religous context - you can’t blame or judge invasive Kudzu or Bark Beeltes for the environmental damage they cause because they aren’t aware of their impact. Humans are aware, and should be held to account for their actions.
HertzDentalBar@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 hours ago
Love your response. I see people trying to dunk by just focusing on “knowledge” constantly.
Leaving out the extra words and details feels the same to me as a news outlet blowing up a stupid thing a politician says simply by ignoring a few words before and after the quote.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
you can’t blame or judge invasive Kudzu or Bark Beeltes
maybe you can’t, dawg. godsdamned homalodisca vitripennis can suck my numerous buttholes.
uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone 13 hours ago
A curious flaw in that story is that Adam and Eve were supposed to know in advance that disobeying and eating from the tree is wrong, before they had knowledge of what wrongness or disobedience is.
I like the evolutionary interpretation, that humans developed the capacity for social cooperation (including interpersonal ethics, moral good and evil) and then realized paradise (the natural world) was actually a bot of a quagmire, teeming with disease and parasites. They were less evicted as realized they could do better.
Objection@lemmy.ml 13 hours ago
I like the evolutionary interpretation, that humans developed the capacity for social cooperation (including interpersonal ethics, moral good and evil) and then realized paradise (the natural world) was actually a bot of a quagmire, teeming with disease and parasites. They were less evicted as realized they could do better.
That’s not true. Before civilization, diseases were much rarer because people travelled together in small, consistent groups. Anthropological evidence suggests that the average person had better, more well rounded diets as well. Which isn’t really surprising, pre-civilization is literally the thing we had millions of years to adapt to.
Civilization brought about much higher rates of disease, and also came along side the introduction of class and slavery, which reduced the quality of life of the average person.
Slavery was not viable in hunter-gatherer societies, because slaves could not be sent out to forage or they’d just leave, and they can’t join hunts without being armed. With agriculture, you can sit on the porch with a bow and arrow and make other people do all the backbreaking labor, and with higher, more consistent yields, you can afford to hire an army of dedicated soldiers to go out and capture hunter-gatherer tribes to use as slaves, perpetuating the system.
It wasn’t that humanity just collectively decided to do cities instead of tribes, and it wasn’t like everyone in cities wanted to be there. But once cities were established, systemic forces caused them to expand and become dominant.
This is what the story of Eden is actually about. Once humanity became aware of agriculture and civilization, we no longer had the ability to remain in the state of nature that we were adapted to, where our brains were evolved to make us happy and satisfied, and faced with problems that our brains aren’t designed to handle or cope with.
Nowadays, yes, we have things like medicine and vaccines and basic hygiene, but those things were only developed in the past few hundred years. From the first cities until then, cities were perfect vectors for the disease, tons of people clumped together, just dumping waste on the streets.
rumba@lemmy.zip 16 hours ago
The bible, as we know it, was canonized from the available religious scripts/scrolls of the time. The original work was a quilt of chosen stories designed to tell a narrative. No, no, that’s too Jewish, no, that’s too Muslim. I think there’s not enough wife beating in here, have you considerd…
Any changes in translation are still pale compared ot the section and organiztion of the source material that honestly wasn’t great to begin with. Even at that, whatever it says, preachers place their own spins on it. Whatever it take to get those donations…
And just because one religion didn’t there are other religions out there that are STILL coming up with more source content :)
kreskin@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
Satanic temple runs the after school satan project, which teaches kids science, critical thinking, and rationalism. And the Hellions Academy of Independent Learning (HAIL) which champions non-discrimination policies while offering secular-aligned values like empathy, compassion, inclusion, and justice without religious coercion. Sessions feature hands-on projects, STEAM activities, arts, community service, and local history tours.
The christians think its inappropriate.
Pictsong@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
Something about being a jealous god is a huge red flag.
Tigeroovy@lemmy.ca 12 hours ago
Wasn’t it that God cast Lucifer down into Hell for asking too many questions?
And that Christianity rules over people with fear that they won’t get into Heaven if they don’t worship God correctly enough?
It makes sense that they’d lie about what Hell is like to lure you over to their side.
I bet Satan is actually a pretty chill dude and everyone just hangs out doing drugs, having crazy sex, and listening to metal all the time.
AEsheron@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
IIRC, current Catholic view is that Satan got upset that God treated humanity so nicely, to the point of giving us his only son to murder in order to redeem us. But earlier Christian views, and Judaism, has no war in Heaven. Satan was not cast out, is not in charge of, or trapped in Hell. Satan was the Judaic version of Nemesis, the angel God sent to test mortals.
Also, Lucifer as a name for Satan is a mistranslation. A Hebrew prophet tried to warn the Babylonian king not to make the tower of Babel. He used an analogy the king would recognize, and compared him to a myth from the Babylonian pantheon. The pantheon was ruled by the two brightest celestial bodies, the sun and moon gods. The third brightest celestial body, Venus, tried to usurp them. His rebellion was put down, and he was forced to repeat his unsuccessful coup for eternity as punishment. This is a reference to the fact that the inner planets, Venus, and the as-yet undiscovered Mercury, never fully cross the sky. The rise, traverse, and then reverse and set the same direction they rose from. The whole of the myth wasn’t spelled out in the Bible, but enough was described that it did sound very similar to the war in Heaven, so a translator assumed Lucifer must be a name for Satan. They liked it so much they sprinkled it around in some other places top. Which is how Satan came to be known as Venus/Lucifer the evening/morning star.
CalypsoGirl@lemmy.today 11 hours ago
No, wait, I thought it was all made up fairy tales intended to intimidate and control people.
Tigeroovy@lemmy.ca 4 hours ago
I mean yeah, if we’re being real it’s all just a load of shit to give people something to fear so they have some reason to not rape and steal and murder so much.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
And she brought forth her hardcorest son, and wrapped him in denim and leather, and kicked him out to heaven; because there was no room for them in hell.
Dicska@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
Fine, I will watch Belzeboss again. It’s been more than a week, anyway.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
God cast Lucifer down into Hell for asking too many questions?
I mean, it’s a mythology that changes based on who is telling the tale, so…
Yeah, sure, if that’s the story you want to tell.
Haquer@lemmy.today 4 hours ago
Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?
wuffah@lemmy.world 1 day ago
If you think of God as just a collective narcissistic projection of human dysfunction, authoritarianism, and self-preservation, then it makes a lot more sense as to why God’s “love” seems so abusive.
Sanctus@anarchist.nexus 1 day ago
Well, no. If you’re taking a stack of supposed moral allegories as fact, Lucifer was cast out for defying God, not for being naughty. Lucifer wouldn’t kneel to mankind and serve them, thinking them lesser, so God tossed him out. Again, if you think myths are facts.
PiraHxCx@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
That’s medieval fanfic built over badly translated old testament passages that are talking about local kings and it’s literally in the previous and next passages that they weren’t talking about any angel… the only thing about being cast out is in Revelations after a war in heaven, that is said the dragon is the same as the serpent, the serpent that told humans that god lied that the fruit would kill them but instead would give us knowledge of good and evil, so literally pushed us towards developing philosophy and sciences, and that war is narrated just after god wipes a third of humanity in one go and send plagues and beetles that sting like scorpions and that for months humanity would look for death and not find it and good were the mothers who smashed their babies against the rocks etc etc etc, that’s what the dragon rose up against
Sanctus@anarchist.nexus 1 day ago
The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon
12 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Satan Thrown Out of Heaven
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for [b]them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
The Woman Persecuted
13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Does it say that in Revelations 13 somewhere? Because it dies not say that in Revelations 12 anywhere.
Mulligrubs@lemmy.world 1 day ago
No.
Book of Job proves you wrong, Revelation proves you wrong, various references throughout Bible I won’t bother to look up prove you wrong. No Christian theologian agrees with you and no atheist theologian agrees with you. Because it’s untrue, sorry.
You should probably read the Bible again, perhaps annotated would be of help.
Lupie@sopuli.xyz 1 day ago
I’d still vibe more with the guy who won’t kneel to us - we suck.
OwOarchist@pawb.social 1 day ago
And … the rest of the angels do kneel to us?
So if I met an angel, I could command it to do whatever I wanted, and it would obey?
I need to get a new summoning book…
Blibittyblah@futurology.today 1 day ago
Hail Satan.
SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Hail Nero.
saltesc@lemmy.world 1 day ago
That’s not how the story goes at all.
He didn’t defy God; he wanted to be God.
Mankind wasn’t a factor, it didn’t even exist.
You’d have better luck spinning a story about a bad breakup and we’re a puppy someone got out of impulse, thinking it’d fill the lonely void.
Sanctus@anarchist.nexus 1 day ago
Thats how it goes in NKJV. But yes, there are other versions with variations on the tale.
JasonDJ@lemmy.zip 13 hours ago
Sheep go to heaven.
Goats…go to hell.
Ironfacebuster@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
I don’t wanna go to sunset strip, I don’t wanna feel the emptiness
JasonDJ@lemmy.zip 12 hours ago
Gold marquees with stupid band names. I don’t wanna go to sunset strip.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
Wouldst thou like the taste of butter? A pretty dress? Wouldst thou like to live deliciously?
thermal_shock@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
Goats go to… HELL.
TrackenDaKracken@lemmy.world 1 day ago
The only account we have of Satan is in the Bible. Not exactly an unbiased source.
nexguy@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
Well since the writers of the Bible made up all the characters in their rpg gamebook it makes sense the beastiary is one sided.
WanderWisley@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
Also remember in the Bible Satan killed 10 people for coming into his house to kill him which is very understandable on the other hand. God killed over 2 million people for the crime of not believing in him makes you wonder who really is the bad guy…
drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world 2 hours ago
Satan’s house is just a place you can go to?
icelimit@lemmy.ml 35 minutes ago
Maybe if we knock and brought a bottle?
PattyMcB@lemmy.world 1 day ago
God is a narcissistic fuck
watson387@sopuli.xyz 1 day ago
Definitely an abusive parent
Sintinium@lemmy.zip 1 day ago
He’s full of human emotions for some reason. Wonder why?
psycholocomotor_no2@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 hours ago
Satan give humankind the apple of knowledge and that was apparently his greatest sin.
QualifiedKitten@discuss.online 1 day ago
Did this many of you seriously manage to read that without getting unreasonably annoyed and distract by the “dirt” on your screens? Like damn… I even took all my meds today and still couldn’t get past that.
TigerAce@lemmy.dbzer0.com 23 hours ago
Also, Lucifer his wings were ripped off and he was banned to the underworld forever because he was asking God to give humans another chance and to have some trust in the human ability to learn from their mistakes (after Adam and Eve ate from the apple). God wouldn’t have it. Humans made a single mistake and they shall be punished forever. Such a nice guy.
If I had to choose between God and Jeffrey Dahmer, I choose Dahmer. Dahmer doesn’t give children leukemia.
trublu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 20 hours ago
Almost. God forced humanity into making that mistake. He deliberately withheld the ability to develop morality, so they literally could not know it was wrong. The omniscient creator of all things must have known he could have set things up differently and how it would have played out. The omnipotent creator of the universe could have made things any other way. Humanity’s fall, according to Christian mythology, was an act of ultimate deliberation.
TigerAce@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 hours ago
What a fucking psychopath.
RattlerSix@lemmy.world 13 hours ago
Dahmer became Christian in prison so he’s in heaven now living in a mansion and walking on streets of gold, while you are going straight to hell to be punished for eternity for, like, saying curse words or something.
TigerAce@lemmy.dbzer0.com 13 hours ago
Yeah but at the festivals I go, there are Christians handing out flyers saying it’s the devil’s music. So at least they have good music in hell. And it’s nice and warm with loads of nice people.
In heaven are Karens, loads of unvaccinated babies and pedophile priests. I sure have a preference, and it isn’t heaven.
Ilikeblankets@lemmy.world 19 hours ago
Where can I find info about this?
TigerAce@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 hours ago
Yup, in the Bible. But there are loads of contradicting stories. It also states homosexuality is a sin, but also says it’s not. And it says you should be stoned to death if you eat pork. And God told a guy to murder his son. There’s so much weird shit in there, you can just pick whatever you like and force it down other’s throats while neglecting the rest you don’t like, like so many terror Christian loonies do. But the Bible changed over the years as it used to be copied by hand by monks and there’s the old and new testament. So it’s all just sadistic bullshit to be used to scare people into submission.
h0tbeef@lemmy.zip 1 day ago
Yeah, i got in a bunch pf trouble for that line of thinking in Sunday School.
They were, however, unable to scare the logic out of me.
Mog_fanatic@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
I also got in trouble for something similar. I asked why Satan was so bad if all he did was punish the worst people in hell while god did the whole plagues on Egypt and flood thingymabob. I’m almost positive they thought my parents were Satanists or something because of that but I just had an honest question lol
h0tbeef@lemmy.zip 15 hours ago
It’s insane when you say something so obvious (like that) to someone who has heard the same contradictory story over and over again for 50 years, and you can tell that they’ve never actually thought about the content of the story.
expletivedeleted@lemmy.zip 20 hours ago
Catharism says that the Old Testament “God” is Satan and Jesus was the real God who entered Satan’s Earth and said, "Don’t listen to this shit. This is fake. Just ignore it and love everyone.
“I will return after this world has turned to shit, and I will save those who understand the real point, and leave the rest of you to reality, giving you eternal life. Then I will return again and kick the fuck out of Satan after you have had a thousand years under his hellscape and then decide to either forgive you and bring you home, or simply destroy you, because you still didn’t learn your lesson.”
tutter@lemmy.blahaj.zone 18 hours ago
This is also the general gnostic view. Yaldabaoth the deciever.
expletivedeleted@lemmy.zip 13 hours ago
That was “Satan’s” unspeakable name.
SuperEars@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
Laser Raptors aren’t unheard of in Kung Führer’s universe.
reksas@sopuli.xyz 18 hours ago
that does make some sense to me
expletivedeleted@lemmy.zip 17 minutes ago
And by destroy, I mean simply cease to exist. Exactly what atheists expect, and only using the group to point out their approach.
The fire and brimstone for all eternity shit?
Someone tell me where that is in the Bible.
BilSabab@lemmy.world 21 hours ago
people tend to overlook the fact that Old Testament God is quite a colorful character. Dude had no chill.
SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 21 hours ago
The Abrahamaic god is a wargod and god of destruction. It’s based on the gods of the Pantheon the people in the Levant worshipped before monotheism. And every god in that Pantheon has something to do with war, death or destruction.
CAPSLOCKED@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
is there a community that treats the bible as pure literature? like a character deconstruction, perhaps examining god’s motive, or things like that. with absolutely 0 literal or figurative interpretation, no bashing or deconstructing beliefs, just treating it like the odyssey or harry potter
stardustpathsofglory@lemmy.world 1 day ago
insanemantis@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
Whether you believe in God or not, I think it’s a mistake to worship them or proclaim them a perfect being
Imagine that we’re ants, and God is a 10 year old kid at a playground. Sure a kid might be overall good and try to genuinely help us ants, but a pair of giant hands can only cause destruction even when they try to help. We can recognize that a human is more wise and more intelligent, while also recognizing that their judgement is fundamentally flawed and not always the best for us
radiofreebc@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Satan was a very minor character in The Bible.
CptOblivius@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
I think if there is a god, a devil, a dirty, etc. none of them are the good guys. I think the greeks and romans had it right. If there are gods they are as fickle as humans.
DmMacniel@feddit.org 1 day ago
Hey now, how can someone who tortured Job for shit and giggles not be a good guy :)
mad_lentil@lemmy.ca 11 hours ago
Sounds pretty patriarchal to me, hmm
Caption_Mo@reddthat.com 1 day ago
I swear, the drama with these two!
mycodesucks@lemmy.world 1 day ago
The goal is to get you to accept that “your betters” can never do wrong and when you suffer consequences it’s due to a greater plan you are not privy to rather than because they are fallible. The intent is to get you to accept without question the authority and judgement of the powers that be du jour, whether it’s the king, the rich, the state… whatever needs to pacify you enough to keep you productive and docile. Satan therefore represents and embodies all of the human qualities of self-determination and true freedom.
Unpigged@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 minutes ago
Bible does not describe or mention hell as we understand it. Our vision of hell is constructed upon drawings of Hieronymus Bosch, who drew inspiration from Visio Tnugdali, a 12th century manuscript describing a bad trip of a knight from Cork.
See you next time.