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Indie dev defends criticism of Steam refund abuse amid review bombing of his game: 'It's wrong to refund a game after having fun with it and completing it'

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Submitted ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨inclementimmigrant@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨games@lemmy.world⁩

https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/indie-dev-defends-criticism-of-steam-refund-abuse-amid-review-bombing-of-his-game-its-wrong-to-refund-a-game-after-having-fun-with-it-and-completing-it/

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Comments

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  • TheJesusaurus@piefed.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    If you refund an idy game that you completed, you’re a sociopath and there’s no helping you. There isn’t a structural system that’s going to prevent that, some people are complete human garbage

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    • buddascrayon@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      It’s not just that playing it enjoying it and then refunding it. It’s the bragging about it on the fucking platform. Kind of asshole who does that. Well, that’s gaming culture these days.

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      • timochka@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Literally the only reason I ever use YouTube other than KPop* videos is very occasionally, if I’m bored, to watch Yahtzee’s reviews. Last night I tuned in and a game I’ve not heard of before, Mixtape, got mentioned.

        I thought “sounds curious, maybe I’ll search for some full reviews of that to see what it’s like”…

        Ho. Lee. Hell.

        There seems to be an entire genre on YouTube of absolutely godawful human beings just being fucking horrible in the guise of “game reviews”. I mean, just really unpleasant people who within about 30 seconds you know would be domestic abusers if they ever met a girl. Is this the edge of the manosphere? It’s absolutely revolting, whatever it is.

        On the bright side, my “never, ever use YouTube for anything other than music videos” commitment is redoubled. I am so glad I’m old enough that this shit wasn’t ubiquitous when I was impressionable.

        • now KPop fandom is a whole other kind of mental; I take solace in mot being able to understand most of it. Ignorance is bliss.
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    • Zorque@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      But what if it sucked? You can easily rage-complete a bad game within the refund window.

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      • deegeese@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        If the meal is bad, don’t finish it and then ask for a refund.

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      • bajabound@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        If you try a new flavor of chips and hate them do you take them back to the store for a refund?

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      • blartcap_@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        rage-complete

        This is the sociopathy.

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      • GoatSynagogue@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Who keeps playing a game they don’t like? Why would you do that to yourself?

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      • TheJesusaurus@piefed.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        If it aucked and you experienced that whole piece of art you don’t get your money back. You don’t get your money back for a bad movie my guy.

        Art gallery’s don’t give refunds and they ALL suck.

        OPERA IS A REAL THING

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      • draco_aeneus@mander.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        It’s only a 2 hour window. I think very reasonable that you might play a game for 90 minutes and then at the end say “wait, that’s it‽ That’s not worth $x!”

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      • Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Except most people said that they liked the game, left a good review and still refunded it, makes no sense

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      • grrgyle@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        That sounds like something for people who like being angry, in which case I’d argue the sense of defeating the game is the enjoyment you got out of it.

        But Jesus, just pirate. Get off steam

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      • Deconceptualist@leminal.space ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        I’ll confess I did this once – with Duke Nukem Forever. My old best bud and I played the fuck out of Duke3D back in the day (including building our own levels) and 3DRealms cockteased everyone for well over a decade with their supposed ‘ultimate’ title. So when it finally released I HAD to play it. And of course there was no way it could live up to the hype. It was an inconsistent mess and I powered through it in under 2 hours. I guess I’m glad I played it but it wasn’t even remotely revolutionary… At beast or was like a collection of fan mods bundled into an ‘official’ title. Not at all worth the asking price. I have no desire to revisit any of it so overall I don’t feel like I ripped them off; if anything I feel like they disappointed me majorly as a fan.

        I played it so others don’t have to. Yeah, that’s how I’ll spin it 😂

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    • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      It should be easy enough to implement a refundability window based on either time-in-game or percentage completion.

      I mean if the game says 20 hours of gameplay but you complete it in an hour, that’s false advertising and there should be an exception. But if a game says it takes an hour to complete and you complete it in an hour, there’s no reason why you should be able to get that refunded.

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      • TheJesusaurus@piefed.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Ok, sure. I think we’re missing the forest for the trees here though

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    • mohab@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      If you refund an indy game that you completed, you’re a sociopath and there’s no helping you.

      Y’all standards are in the gutter. Completing a game does not mean you’re obligated to keep it.

      If you did not have fun, or if the game does not meet your expectations for replayability, the responsible financial decision is to refund it.

      Whether it’s indie or not is irrelevant. The world economy is shit, and, consumers or indie developers, everyone is struggling alike.

      I understand you’re going after people with money to spare who maliciously do this, but that sentence is not it.

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      • TheJesusaurus@piefed.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        You complaining about the economy while you NOT pay artists for their work is why you’re a spciopath

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      • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        “I finished my plate but I actually hated it so I demand a refund” is what you sound like.

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      • Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Atp just pirate it and don’t brag about refunding the game in the reviews of the game you just completed, liked and deemed enjoyable

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    • mohab@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Y’all standards are in the gutter. Completing a game does not mean you’re obligated to keep it.

      If you did not have fun, or if the game does not meet your expectations for replayability, the responsible financial decision is to refund it.

      Whether it’s indie or not is irrelevant. The world economy is shit, and, consumers or indie developers, everyone is struggling alike.

      I understand you’re going after people with money to spare who maliciously do this, but that sentence is not it.

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      • mohab@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        To whoever replied to my original comment (I don’t understand how OC can call me a sociopath, block me, and make my comment disappear, but whatever) and likened playing a game and refunding it to refunding a meal you ate: you can’t re-eat a meal but you can replay a game.

        Most shmups you can beat in less than 30 minutes with continues, but the fun is replayability. If it’s not replayable, it’s not worth the money, unless it’s appropriately priced.

        I’m honestly tired of people who inhale 1-hour walking simulators on daily basis or have hundreds of games sitting in their library unplayed talking about game prices or value per dollar. Y’all suck at this. You better leave this discussion alone.

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    • deczzz@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      What if I private the game? Am I also a sociopath for doing that?

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      • TheJesusaurus@piefed.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Pirating indy games is crazy work, yes

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      • echodot@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Whether or not you want to make the moral distinction is a personal choice, but there is an economic distinction to be made as well.

        Pirating a AAA game is fine because the studio is gonna make more games regardless.

        Pirating an indie game is stupid though, if too many people do that then the developer won’t be able to make enough money and won’t make more games.

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  • Pika@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    The people who legitimately do this are the ones who make the rest of the gamers look bad.

    If you bought a game, especially for $3, played it from start to finish over the course of an hour and a half, and then bragged about it when you refunded it. You fully deserve to have your refund capability disabled.

    The thing is, though, I don’t really know a way that this can be implemented without allowing publishers to game the system. I do personally think that Two Hours is a little generous for the overall story because I will generally know whether or not I’m going to like a game within 35 minutes of playing.

    I think a good alternative to it is have your refund window be based off of the current sale price of the game.

    So for a game that’s less than five bucks, you would only have somewhere between 30 minutes to an hour of a refund window.

    Then for your typical indie window, which would be like fifteen to thirty dollars, you have an hour to hour and a half then your AAA title pricing of 60+, you have two or three hours.

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    • Alexstarfire@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      It largely depends on the type of game. There’s are plenty of games I’ve played where you’re still in the tutorial after 2 hours. Hell, I don’t think I knew if I liked EU4 until I was like 50+ hours in.

      You don’t need 2 hours to figure out if you like Super Meat Boy though. You’ll know in less than an hour. Probably less than that.

      For those who wonder how you could play a game for 50+ hours and not know if you like it; it’s a grand strategy game with lots of functionally. A full game can easily be 50+ hours depending on how fast you let the game run, and your first game is definitely going to have a lot of pausing trying to figure out various functionality. First game is or two is just figuring out the basic gameplay.

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      • GoatSynagogue@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        If you play a game for 50+ hours, you liked it. You don’t spend that amount of time being undecided.

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    • SatansMaggotyCumFart@piefed.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Oh I get you there.

      I played The Witcher 3 for over a hundred hours and didn’t realize I didn’t like it until I went to have a threesome with Triss and Yennefer and instead got left with blue balls.

      I would have returned that game right then and there if I could have.

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    • HeyJoe@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Maybe have a new rule for shorter games, like if its reasonable to complete the game normally in under 5 hours then the 2 hour window should be 1 hour or even 30 minutes. Idk how games are submitted but it should be an option at that time on how long the game is or a question about if its over or under x hours long so they know how to treat the game for this policy.

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      • kinkles@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        That’s where the abuse comes in, because how can you be sure a developer won’t make a short game and list it as 20hrs to complete?

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      • grrgyle@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Enough rules, enough Automation’s, I say, just make steam actually hire some real customer service humans. What? They can’t afford it?

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    • mohab@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      This would only work if the game participates in regional pricing, otherwise you’re fucking over most people who don’t deal in USD. $15 to you is not just $15 to everyone else.

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      • Pika@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        I don’t see how this would be too much of an issue. If it’s the way in one region, then it would be unilateral all across all regions. Price wouldn’t really matter at that point as long as you’re using the same guideline

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  • BananaLama@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    If you’re planning to refund a game. Just pirate it

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    • thingsiplay@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      You have to trust the source where you download to pirate it.

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      • fishy@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Just gotta find a decent private tracker and keep your ratio good.

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  • aksdb@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Maybe not in this particular case: but what if you buy a game intending to get 10 hours out of it and after 1h you get greeted by the final credits. Shouldn’t you not be able to refund then? (Depending on the price of course.)

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    • MangoPenguin@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Depends if the game set some expectation for a 10 hour long campaign or not I’d say.

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    • yermaw@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I tried Buckshot Roulette on gamepass last night. That would 100% be getting refunded if it was anything more than 50p.

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      • Fizz@lemmy.nz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Yeah thats game was annoyingly short. I wouldnt blame anyone for refunding it.

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      • P1nkman@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        You’re supposed to escape. And then get the white telephone. That takes many hours.

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    • echodot@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      That’s the thing they always tell you. It isn’t a mobile platform, people are prepared to pay higher prices but you need to set expectations with those prices.

      If you’re charging $15 for a game people are going to expect at least 10ish hours of gameplay, if it’s going to be under that you want to be sub $10.

      Although having said that I think I only paid £12 for Minecraft (about $15) and I’m probably thousands and thousands of hours into that.

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    • Smaile@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      i feel like i got fuckin ripped off if it was an hour long, this isn’t a complicated game and even with the low price id refund it. then again id never buy this game in the first place cuz i already hold that view point.

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  • GreenKnight23@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    all this will do is discourage an obviously talented developer from ever publishing another game.

    good job gamers, you’re just as toxic as everyone believes you are.

    1000004305

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    • echodot@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      It’s not “gamers”, it’s just people, some of which are nobs who one shouldn’t listen too

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      • GreenKnight23@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        ok. “people who game”, aka gamers.

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  • Dudewitbow@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    keep in mind, its partially overblown because according to the acheivements, only 7% users have actually beat the game of the people who kept it. the people who refunded shouldnt be that different than the average.

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    • GoatSynagogue@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Apart from the people saying that’s exactly what they did, which is what this is about.

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      • Dudewitbow@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        hence exageration, as the majority probably never finished, and its more scrutinized on the people who did. When you bring up the refund rate, then a specific comment doing the refund, that’s pushing a narrative to the passive reader that they are one in the same when only a fraction of said 55k actually have completed the game in under 2 hours.

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    • teawrecks@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      only 7% users have actually beat the game of the people who kept it. the people who refunded shouldnt be that different than the average

      You would need data to show this hypothesis to be true, you can’t assume it, the variables are not independent, that’s the whole point being made.

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      • Dudewitbow@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        while i can’t entirely assume it, you cannot assume that the people refunded are drastically better than the people who didn’t, especially when the dev puts out t he 55k refund numbers. if hes going to claim 55k refunds, he needs to show that 55k (or a majority of those) actually beat the game and refunded in under 2 hours, else hes bundling a bunch of people who simply ragequit and likely legitimately refunded the game. The debate ultimately comes up because he happen to tie the 55k number on the same post as showing the comment that someone beat the game and refunded.

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  • VitoRobles@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    How about all the people who bought it without even playing? This is a even larger number than the refunders.

    This indie dev made a hit game that sold pretty well btw.

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    • janonymous@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      What about that? If they bought it, but haven’t played it, yet, should they not have to pay for for it?

      Or does that somehow make people buying an indie game and bragging about having fun completing the game, then refunding it afterwards, look better?

      Developer Mateo Covic, who went viral for complaining that thousands of people had refunded his game after finishing it in less than two hours, says he’s not actually unhappy about the number of refunds or money he lost, or even Steam’s policy in general—he was merely expressing frustration with players who “bragged about having a fun time with the game and refunding it after completion.”

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  • DevDave@piefed.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Some gaming consumers are just easily directed cattle for rage stampedes about whatever. No time for comprehension, just get the pitch forks and go burn some shit down!

    Similar theme but different story was that guy who distributes a VR “mod” for various games, including Cyberpunk 2077. The nuanced part is a big chunk of it is in proprietary libraries that are independent of the games it provides VR support for. Just look at what PrayDog had to do to get VR support for just Unreal games https://github.com/praydog/UEVR/tree/master and that other guy has made a toolset that works with multiple engines. Charging at most a one time patreon fee for an unlocked copy doesn’t sound that greedy.

    Another one was the more muted whining that Valheim’s Iron Gate has cheated everyone by doing “the bare minimum” to be Early Access and are abandoning an unfinished game with Valheim’s 1.0 release. Personally I think those people are fucking insane.

    Forty years ago I was at a cross roads that would have led to me being a programmer in the gaming industry. Really glad I didn’t choose that as the game industry culture is absolutely exhausting.

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  • BradleyUffner@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Were they not aware of the refund policy when they listed their game for sale on the platform?

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    • SunshineJogger@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      I guess they didn’t expect people to be such freeloading assholes to play their game in full and then take back their money.

      That kind of dumb people are why we have to deal with huge exploitative game companies instead of having more indie devs

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      • mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        I guess they didn’t expect people to be such freeloading assholes to play their game in full and then take back their money.

        Have they even given evidence that their game is significantly more refunded than any other game? Or did they see X amount of people refunding the game and declaring that they must have done it because they’re evil?

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  • monstoor@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Easy fix: have a two-hour intro video that you can’t skip ;-)

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    • SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Kojima: “what’s so special about that?”

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      • yermaw@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        “Only two hours? Oh man ive wasted so much effort…”

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    • Smaile@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      yah that deff won’t make the review bombing worse…

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  • Imgonnatrythis@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Honestly that game looks pretty fun, especially as a two player game. Just keep it after you beat it and play it with someone else. Or play it again at varying levels of inebriation.

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  • ChaosSpectre@lemmy.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Realistically need a better solution for refunds, especially for indie devs. 2 hours just isn’t enough time for shitty games to reveal themselves sometimes, but its also more time than some absolute gems take to beat.

    People mentioned achievements, but thats unreliable as even I can spoof achievements on steam last I checked.

    Valve can’t be expected to manage every refund request thoroughly, and devs can’t exactly be trusted to respect those requests if they were in charge of them being its literally losing money, but theres gotta be some way to reliably refund a customer without it being abused to harm an innocent dev.

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    • ms_lane@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Agreed, if the 2 hour timer was reduced, we’d just see a bunch of nasty developers take advantage of it with games that are front loaded and then nothing as we have in the past.

      It sucks for honest people on both sides of the equation.

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  • TORFdot0@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I have to imagine this was this risk the developer should have considered when making a game shorter than the return window.

    The platform shouldn’t have to intervene because the developer didn’t properly evaluate risk when releasing the game

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    • Beeen132@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      No understanding of art here.

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      • TORFdot0@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        If it’s being made for art, then who cares if it’s being returned or not. It’s being enjoyed. If you want to capitalize on your art then you need to take the trade off of it getting returned if your artistic vision is shorter than the return window

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  • panda_abyss@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Maybe not all games should have the same refund policy.

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  • Blackmist@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    It’s going to be a tiny minority of people doing that, but there probably ought to be a basic check to see if you got the achievement for completing the game before letting you refund it. Maybe not for YouTube rageslop like this, but for the smaller “experience” games, like Unpacking or something.

    Realistically a lot of people are treating the refund system as a demo. I know on PS+ there’s the option on a lot of games to play it for two hours before having to buy it. I guess the PC is a bit too open to allow for that. Could offer that by playing it in the nebulous “cloud” I suppose.

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    • VitoRobles@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      It really is a tiny minority. A handful of reviews said they did it specifically for that. That’s it.

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  • realitaetsverlust@piefed.zip ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Well, the dev is absolutely right. It’s really unfortunate for him that some trash subhuman scum abuses it in such a way, but overall I’d still argue that the refund policy benefits people more than it harms.

    I think the only sensible solution for devs would be to make games that are longer than 2 hours. Add some additional content that drags the game across that line. You already got a working game - take another month, add some more content.

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    • ajoebyanyothername@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Bloating and padding a game unnecessarily is likely to increase the amount of refunds if anything.

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    • grrgyle@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      So I don’t think you realize this but imo in many cases this would make a game worse.

      Like if a dev has about a 1 hour game and they don’t lie and they price it with what they think is fair and people who play it enjoy it, then at the very least the people who brag in reviews about finishing a game and liking it, should have their refund denied or overturned

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  • TheDemonBuer@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I have never refunded a game on Steam. But then, I usually wait to buy a game until it’s been out for a while and usually on sale.

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  • Smaile@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    if theyre also review bombing its cut its not good, friend slop became a term for a reason and its likely being applyed here.

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    • starman2112@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Tagging the official Steam account, Covic wrote on X, “This should not be possible. Would be cool if you could finally do something about your refund policy… Got dozens of reviews like that and 21% refund rate even though the reviews are 90% very positive… That’s over 55,000 Refunds btw.”

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  • chunes@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    According to all the statistics I have ever seen, especially from devs who’ve made short games, this isn’t an actual problem.

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    • Rooster326@programming.dev ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Almost like you could check the reviews and realize there are serious problems with using co-op in a game that is designed for co-op

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  • BlackLaZoR@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    If your game is so short that users can finish it without prior knowledge in less then 2h, you’re doing something wrong.

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  • daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    This is going to translate into “more sells” same as drm.

    People who want to pay will pay. People who doesn’t want to pay won’t ever pay. With digital media there’s objectively any loss if someone who didn’t pay played your game. So just let it be, you are not going to sell more just because you removed or made smaller the steam refund window.

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  • Cybersteel@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Is the dev naive or young or something? Here in the US, people abuse public utilities, free services, etc all the time. It’s just the way it is, it’s in our nature as humans after all, to get the most of everything and leave nothing in return.

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  • Bonje@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I think locking refunds after a certain achievement unlock is a decent way to address this unless devs are scummy and do it after one achievement. Though proper disclosures can fix that too.

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  • Mwa@thelemmy.club ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    its a Unity game eww

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  • Icedrous@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    We do that with physical media all the time, dont we? If I finish a game and for some reason I’m able to get my money back, I’ll get my damn money back.

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