Submitted 2 months ago by Brainsploosh@lemmy.world to [deleted]
I’m not in the US, but it seems to me that the Republicans keep breaking norms and procedures, including politicising impeachment and ignoring illegal, immoral and plain bad conduct.
They also seem to be fine with not applying the same standard across the isle.
On the other hand, either Democrats follow new precedent, with even more devolving, or they keep the old decorum and get their asses kicked by Republican foul play.
What ways out of this spiral are there?
Revolution
This is the only way. You don’t defeat fascism peacefully.
Well. You can. But we already passed all the opportunities to do so. Gotta nip it in the bud and we chose not to do so.
As a non-American, it’s always looked to me like the Republicans manage to get their shit done whether they’re in charge or not and the Democrats are just there to assure everyone they have a choice in voting and not much else.
The whole thing to me looks like a game of good cop / bad cop. Bad cop comes along beats the shit out you, and then good cop comes along to give you a cup of weak shit coffee as a consolation for your black eye and says something unconvincing about being unhappy with bad cop’s behaviour, before letting bad cop back in to beat the shit out of you some more.
And for every cycle of that, bad cop achieves his goals while good cop just acts as a glorified tea lady that tries to make sure you don’t have any hard feelings about bad cop.
it’s always looked to me like the Republicans manage to get their shit done
This is at least partly propaganda but for sure they succeed in misleading and confusing
The shit republicans get done tends to be
Republicans getting “shit done”? What a schizo take.
Destroying shit is what they said they’d do. They did it. Therefore they got their shit done.
The problem is that it’s far easier to destroy than build. They suck at building anything. They can’t even build walls. Governing is building. They can’t govern. So they mash the easy button and destroy instead.
As in “getting their shit done.”
Find me a philosophy or religious perspective that is unambiguous about brute force.
It’s effective as long as one doesn’t consider the consequences, but the reality of nearly every situation is such that there’s always a better way. Did the US need to nuke two Japanese cities and every inhabitant during WW2? Or were they just too tired, scared of a war of attrition and with the technological option available, they took the easier path?
Mouseland may have been written about Canada but it also applies to the USA.
Yes. All modern human civilization will collapse with the coming climate change.
I see basically three ways out:
Democrats/someones sane win overwhelming majority for long enough to harden procedures, cement effective enforcement, and subversion proof the whole system, while not succumbing to their own corruption. Seems incredibly unlikely.
Autocracy and/or persecution of political rivals, where dissenters “fall out windows” a lot or the legislative body is replaced, until stability reforms and new norms can be reintroduced. Seems most likely currently, and has several contemporary examples.
Revolt, public and/or military, throwing out all the politicians and imposing exile or lynching of the offending politicians. Seems improbable, and especially to unite enough to throw out all the bad behaviour. Also will lead to a junta, civil strife and/or provisional government which come with their own slew of issues and corruption.
The Republicans grow a sense of decorum to protect the less privileged party. I can’t imagine this happening without basically a GOP-internal pogrom under a strongman, but Republican conservatism pulls a strongman in the opposite direction. Unless perhaps they’re some kind of upstanding teocrat perhaps?
This is all wild and slightly saddening speculation, please feel free to suggest other paths!
I still think the US states splitting up like the USSR did is entirely on the table.
California is not going to continue being the republican punching bag and funding red states forever.
A split like this would likely allow some people to move, and ease the tensions measurably.
The states would still trade/function with each other, I don’t expect them to go to war or anything.
States leaving isn’t realistic. They are way more integrated than the EU has ever dreamed of being. Brexit was messy with a mostly independent UK, something like California leaving would take decades of negotiations to replace existing interstate compacts with treaties.
The things the founding fathers see as mistakes, right?
Looks like slavery would be back on the menu.
Great suggestion, I’ll put it near the top of the improbable pile.
I think that fox news and other right-wing propaganda media must be dealt with first. Otherwise they’ll continue to demonize any movement that attempts to fix things and ensure that nothing changes.
At this point? Probably not. Not if history is any indication. We’ve blown right past all the checkpoints that would have prevented this snowball effect. Our legislative processes are almost too irreparably damaged for a healthy democracy to exist. We’ve removed too many regulations regarding money in our politics and not placed enough regulations on the focus of power on individuals and entities within our government.
We’re probably going to go through a really dark period where the quality of life is going to decline, rights will be stripped, and a lot of vulnerable people are going to die and then, hopefully, things will get bad enough that a revolution happens. It won’t be like WW2 where more powerful forces come to our rescue. We’ll have to do it ourselves. And I don’t really have that much faith in our populace doing that. Again, it will take a really significant decline in quality of life for damn near everyone before that’s even possible. It looks like that’s where we’re headed though.
The rich coastal states that can bail out should definitely do so. Cascadia now!
California is lobbing the calexit referendum again. Wheeee
Sadly, I think you’re right.
It’s absurd that the wealthiest people in the world are making all the decisions that effect the rest of us, especially when they’re using that control to influence the rest of us through social media.
I think the only solution is a revolution where wealth is redistributed, probably through violence.
Bezos and Musks assets should just be nationalised. Give them pensions of 10m a year or something in return.
Somewhere along the way we decided punching Nazis wasn’t cool. I worry it’s too late now.
The “we” you speak of is a lot smaller of a group than you think.
Is it though? we all claim to hate nazis (largely because of their genocide), but talk about halting a different genocide and suddenly the dems have all wandered off or are staring intently at their shoes.
Ok.
Saying to punch Nazis is against the rules on the new 196.
No, the ban wasn’t about anything else. Drag has direct statements from multiple mods that it was about violence against Nazis, not about anything else. The admin is not the mod team. The admin’s views are not the reason for the mod team’s actions
Most of us are still ok with it, but we won’t be the ones to do it. There aren’t enough that will.
The US will have a “Revolution of Dignity” moment similar to Ukraine.
If pro-constitution side wins, trump (and leading maga leaders) will flee to russia.
But if the maga wins, the US will remain a fascist nation for decades.
It’s not written in cosmic law that this will occur. The circumstance are certainly leaning in that direction though.
They learned from 2020. So must any opposition evolve. But yeah, moving away from fascism is going to take some blood on both sides. Arguably better than sticking with it where only one side’s blood is shed.
A general strike is probably the best place to start. There’s still a lot that needs to happen to get the placated middle to see the need for more aggressive means.
UAW is organizing one for 2028.
Wait for the Germans to liberate you, I guess.
They’re sliding back into Nazism too.
Yeah, but they’re still a lot less Nazi than the USA were in 1939.
Or Mexico tbh, wait until the civil war is spent and watch the cartels roll in
I really don’t know. Me personally, I’m pursuing citizenship in an EU country so I can at least have an exit strategy other than “drive to Canada and hope they let me in”. Other than that, I’m active in my union and I talk with my neighbors. I walk my dog and am visibly a Nice Normal Person who happens to be Queer.
It’s scary being queer here, so I might tone that down a bit as I get more scared. Which is what They want, but, hey, I’m scared.
It’s better to be safe, than to be a martyr. Good luck and best wishes!
Thanks. My ancestors avoided WWI and WWII by emigrating to America. I can’t judge them for that, so it feels fair to give myself the same option.
Armed revolution by the workers
Armed being the key word here. Show them what the left actually does with weapons.
The two parties tango. The Republicans wouldn’t be getting away with it if the Democrats weren’t beholden to the same moneyed interests.
Did Obama prosecute any of the Bush Jr officials guilty of torture and guilty of invading Iraq over a lie?
But why is there a two party tango?
Democrats will implement some policies and laws and then see support collapse as Republicans get voted in. Then people who didn’t vote will complain that Republicans got voted in and dismantled what Democrats were able to do.
Good luck. Feels pretty pointless over here right now.
Don’t get sad - great angry
I’ve been angry since I’ve been politically aware and I’m tired of it. It’s exhausting being angry and having no influence.
I’m too old to be angry all the time.
You are correct in your noticing Democrats have been the party of decorum - and that’s the penultimate refuge of the incompetent before violence. So, now we’ve established that the two-ply paper-thin veneer of legitimacy has unraveled, what should we do?
There are ways out of this. None of them are easy.
Vote with your wallet, vote in primaries. Go to community board meetings. Speak up, even if you’re afraid of what anyone might think. More people will respect you for trying than you’d think, but don’t waste the opportunity on something trivial.
Don’t do business with anyone with destructive politics to the point where it causes you personal/professional inconvenience and costs your money. Support local communities. Talk to the guy on the street corner you always see but never approached. Maybe they can tell you something. Talk to the guy that makes your sandwiches at the store, your bartender, your barista, your cleaning lady, your laundromat people. Hell talk to your drug dealer/street pharmacist. Talk to your coworkers and don’t be scared. If they snitch then you will know indicators better for next time, and trust me - you will survive the mistake. Maybe it’s BS, maybe you’ll realize there’s an angle to help yourself and everyone else. Never do anything unless it helps more people than yourself, and doesn’t have an obvious negative externality that you can account for.
Go to rallies, go to meetings. Show support in public for people you believe in, someone standing up next to you when you stick your neck out counts for more than you can possibly understand. Put yourself on the front line facing armed police. Make the point that you won’t break, and that they can’t scare you. Remain nonviolent until you have no other option, but be prepared when they invent reasons to hurt you withing reason - and remember that they may have thought they never had a choice (even if they did).
This is going to get ugly.
The next time someone annoys or inconveniences you, or says something provocative, ask yourself why, and ask yourself what personal hell they are living in made them do that?
If this sounds a lot like religious nonsense, that’s exactly what it is. That stuff was (arguably flawed and wantonly misinterpreted) attempts to give people a map going forwards. We’ve been putting in an abysmal effort to do better for not only ourselves, but everyone else, and now everyone’s hurting. Some people you can’t help, they’re so stuck into their monomaniacal vision of reality that they don’t care who they’re hurting, even if it’s ultimately themselves through consequence or some other metaphysical mechanism whether you believe in it or not.
Find a community, build a community. Be a leader and set a better example for everyone around you.
It may already be too late but your actions going forwards from here will determine what survives, and whether THAT is worth saving.
And remember - it’s not just humans. There are many other living beings on this planet that don’t have the technological capacity, legal status or physical ability to make themselves heard, and our status demands at very least the acknowledgement of some form of responsible stewardship.
Good Luck.
To all of us.
Need to reorganize liberal politics from the ground up. Liberals need to justify their existence and the value of their policies at the city and state level and use that to build a national brand.
I disagree. Just by going off margins of past elections the last decade. Dems tend to have more loyal voters in non presidential years.
We’re in ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’ mode.
Invest every dollar you can spare, because that’s the only way to win in any of this. Both ruling parties care far more about your stock portfolio succeeding than they do about you.
No they don’t give a shit about you they care about their stock portfolio.
Fuck you i got mine and all.
Investing is the only way to get ahead on an individual financial basis, but it feeds the machine. They win more from it than you.
Our capital to bargain with is labor and civility. This is why they want to replace us with AI while blocking alternate means to survive. If AI can do it we lose leverage.
Hardly, the leverage was always violence.
Right now, not much can done, but ideas will change over time as the people holding the old ideas eventually die from age.
In my opinion, the current shitshow is actually a sign of old ideas dying. It’ll take time, but I don’t believe the Project 2025 will be successful. It’s happening brutally right now, but it will fail, because it’s being done with only very slim support from the population.
Seems like a lot of support honestly.
It’s an illusion. Not that many people care (which was the problem in November), but the ones who do are loud about it.
The issue is one of education. The Republicans have been spewing non-stop misinformation, and the populace is too uneducated to understand the difference. When people actually know what’s going on and understand it, they overwhelmingly oppose conservative policies. Which is why Project 2025 wants to take a sledgehammer to public education.
If Democrats diverted all of their advertising budget toward remedial education of the electorate, I think they’d find themselves in a much better state in 2028.
I’m not positive of what the answer is, but I truly believe it will somehow sometime. However, please remember that this website is an echo chamber and sells doom and gloom. There is always hope no matter what the doomers say, otherwise they wouldn’t be here.
Remember your information diet guidelines!
Limit social media intake, read with an eye towards bias and agenda, and verify all news with independent sources.
And remember that comments are typically opinion and made by a guy that looks like a hairy Shrek.
Yes, actually two folks figured it out over 100 years ago and wrote several books on exactly how to exit the spiral.
Then y’all called us tankies and told us to fuck off, so nah. You deserve Trump and the collapse of America.
More than just two folks, but the point stands…
I have no idea, but I think something will have to happen that affects the majority of Americans. Another sustained Depression for example. Republicans will have to crash and burn the country down before their voters will turn on them. They have to experience pain for themselves, for they have no empathy for others. They say they do, but they cannot. They say they are Christian, but turn their back on what they say his teachings are. I’m fed up and scared at the same time. I hit retirement age in less than 10 years. Social security won’t be there for me. I did a terrible job of saving, I spent most of my paychecks on frivolous things like bills, rent, and food. I make good money now, but it’s not enough. I know I’m yelling into the void, but it feels good to say it.
Republicans are already poor and victimized. But all they watch is political propaganda (Fox News, Newsmax, OANN, etc) so they blame it on immigrants and trans people instead of the rich who are robbing them blind.
As long as people believe Democrats are different from Republicans the spiral will continue.
People believing that they’re the same is the kind of mindset that leads to a Trump victory. Apathy rewards extremists.
The Overton window has shifted so much in 4 years that 2024 democrats were definitely running on 2016 Republican platforms.
I don’t believe apathy is the solution but let’s not kid ourselves, they are effectively the same in regards to the proletariat. They just operate on a 50% societal deterioration as opposed to Republicans 100%
Democrats refuse to undo what Republicans do. The best they deliver is upholding the current status quo for another four years.
War.
Maybe. How are we going to responsibly fight one?
Elite centrists have dominated the Democratic party since Clinton. They love to take a “responsible” center left position and try to grab centrists. Unions, minorities and people on the left have no recourse but to continue to vote for them because the Republicans were soo much worse.
Trump’s super power has always been his ability to say anything it takes to get votes yet deliver very little. Because of this he can say appealing things to unions and minorities who have been disenfranchised which undermines Democrats.
The generation of boomers who have lead the Democratic Party since Clinton is literally dying out. These next few election cycles are going to be interesting as the next generation of Xers and Millennials have a different opinion of government and are much more militant and vocal.
These next few election cycles
It’s very hopeful to assume there will be another set of elections in 4 years in all 50 states. We should be operating as if there won’t be.
Try living here. I feel hopeless every time I go online or turn on the TV.
Join your local advocacy organizations, volunteer and make the difference in your community/local area. It’ll have more impact for you than you can ever do via federal level.
The Republicans are much better about using topics they don’t care as much about to generate support so they can achieve the ones they do.
The Democrats tend to want to die on every hill, which is ultimately a losing strategy.
Emigration or civil war, I’d wager. My home country will be a fascist state during my lifetime, as I’ve been saying for about three to four years.
The only way I see out of it is not a way I like or am willing to talk about online. Let’s just say the second amendment is making more and more sense every day.
Yep… war or a plane
I’m still optimistic. While the severity of the current shitshow is unprecedented, the reality is we tend to bounce left and right. One side gets in power and does (or doesn’t) shit, until people get pissed off and elect the other side.
I am more worried about the death of need and rise of streaming. Just like the rise of TV changed who could be elected and how, new media is also changing that. So far new media helps elect people with dark skills, people farther from anyone you’d want governing. It’s not pretty, it’s not good, and it’s getting worse before it gets better. Truth doesn’t matter, echo chambers matter, outrage matters.
FMT99@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Grass-roots local freaking organization. People keep waiting for someone to save them not realizing: they’re someone. Get involved with whatever local org is trying to improve people’s lives. Address the problems that the right wing is lying about solving. Support whatever local candidate aligns with that view or hell become that candidate. Then get more people on board.
The extreme right flourishes because the establishment (left and right) has for decades ignored real people’s issues. You hears those interviews with Trump voters? They’re not talking about wanting to reinstate the Third Reich, they’re complaining about their real life hardships being ignored by politicians. And yeah Trump is obviously lying but desperate people will believe a lie if no one else is providing a better alternative.
Brainsploosh@lemmy.world 2 months ago
You’re not wrong, but I don’t see the relevance to the topic? Unless this is part of the public revolt?
Organising to protect immigrants in your area is admirable, but how do you get rid of the necessity to do that? You’ll have to replace the politicians, no?
And you’ll probably need to be revolution sized and well organised to be able to do that when they ignore any procedure or deal that doesn’t benefit them in the specific moment.
FMT99@lemmy.world 2 months ago
There’s not going to be a public revolt or at least I wouldn’t hold my breath. And besides public revolts may feel cathartic but historically they don’t have the kind of outcome we’d hope for. Not to mention the civil war that’d likely ensue.
There’s no overnight solution to this problem. And you can’t start from the top if you’re not already a billionaire with a private social media network. But you can get people on your side or rather show that you’re on their side.
The real enemy is the same for both of us: the 0.01%. Trump supporters have just been brainwashed into thinking Trump is the man to solve that problem. And to be fair a lot of the left has been brainwashed into thinking the establishment Democrats are the only way forward.
But in the end it’s the extreme right that profits from us screaming insults at each other.
Eldritch@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I believe this is the right video. It should go a long way to answering your question.
Top down organization of political parties like the Democrats in the US is relatively new. Last 50+ years or so, and antidemocratic. Look to when the Democratic party was much better for the average man. And one of the differences you’ll see was it was much more bottom up. Local organization and community building is vital. Not just for left anarchist/libertarians like myself. But to any common man looking for a political party to represent them. Leaving leadership to their own devices is how leadership became so out of touch.
copygirl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 months ago
Politicians decide things, but to actually make stuff happen, the government needs to collect taxes to pay for services that are then provided to the public. I think the idea here is to take out the middleman. You won’t solve the problem country wide, but you’ll help some people, and that’s still worth it. Work together without like-minded people locally, be an inspiration, and show that it works. I’ve only been very briefly part of an activist group (specialized in food saving), so probably best to look elsewhere for good advice on how to do this well.
Gecko4469@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I agree and it’s what I’m trying to lean into. I’ve been thinking of democracy as a verb or a muscle that has atrophied in me. Corporations certainly aren’t democratic, and most systems we live in nowadays don’t lend themselves towards democratic modes of engagement. My goal is to learn more about unions and look at mutual aid groups and tenant unions and look at examples in American history when people were more civically engaged and try to do more.
The nazis and religious zealots should continue to have their free speech and be able to parade, but they need to be shunned back to the recesses of popularity and life where they were scorned and looked at with disgust and their points were not granted the dignity to be engaged with in ‘debate’. Instead they are now treated as a spectacle and a disbelief that anyone even truly believes those things. They also successfully framed the discussion that they have reason and science on their side, and culturally we all need to understand they are ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag.
Brainsploosh@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I’ll suggest that the nazis and fanatics don’t get to express their nazi or fanatical views.
You can check out Popper’s Paradox/Paradox of Tolerance, which suggests that a tolerant society must counteract intolerance or it spreads to destroy all tolerance.