You just have to ignore the existence of electron flow. Conventional current flow is all that matters, and the only people who use electron flow are those who design integrated circuits and lunatics
Why I gave up electronics club
Submitted 2 weeks ago by deHaga@feddit.uk to science_memes@mander.xyz
https://feddit.uk/pictrs/image/975efc2b-3c0d-499e-a21b-f800d72ebd15.webp
Comments
Console_Modder@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
ch00f@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
You forgot science enthusiasts who are desperately trying to impress people.
Console_Modder@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
They get lumped in with the lunatics
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
You mean the writers fpr “IFL Science”?
Yeah, we don’t want them. They’re idiots
JasonDJ@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
You mean to tell me that there are people out there whose job it is to design lunatics?
That’s fucking awesome. Like a real-life comic book author.
ThePyroPython@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It’s also useful to think of the “ground” plane as a sort of well of potential charger carriers that the conventional current model overlooks. Aside from simultaneously visualising what’s happening inside simple ICs like BJTs / MOSFETs and the circuit diagrams I’ve found it a useful way for checking for common mode noise in circuit and PCB design.
I guess this makes me a lunatic? Don’t know until we test it;
Someone give me an
asylummakerspace to takeover!JasonDJ@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
It’s also useful to think of the “ground” plane as a sort of well of potential charger carriers
I…think I understand ground loops (audio) now.
BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 2 weeks ago
Are you implying there there are IC designers who aren’t lunatics?
MuskyMelon@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
You just have to ignore the existence of electron flow.
And ignore magnetic fields completely?
vaionko@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
In a lot of cases, yes. 99% of the time when designing electronics / electrical circuits you can safle ignore them.
Arrkk@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Also chemists doing electrochemistry where the direction of electron flow is very important. You also have to deal with anode and cathode being flipped from how you expect since you are putting current in instead of taking current out.
TheRealKuni@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
And that’s why we have positrons instead of the much-cooler-sounding negatrons.
MajorMajormajormajor@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Man, they have positrons and negatrons now? The Transformers franchise is wild.
Assassassin@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
We gotta keep them out of sports, they are too strong.
TheFogan@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
Oddly when it came time to negotiations, they somehow realized actually calling yourself a Decepticon, was not a good name for inspiring trust.
SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
For some reason every Negatron in the last Michael Bay movie was a black.
morto@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
“all models are wrong, but some are useful”
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
I would even go as far as to say that models are neither right nor wrong, they just are what they are. Like a flower is not right or wrong for blooming a certain way, it just does what it does and does not care about your right and wrong. This is simply because there is no morality outside of human society and therefore no way to establish right or wrong.
In fact, it is us who are right or wrong when we are using a model. We can use it in meaningful ways or nonsensical ways, it’s our choice. That’s why it’s us who are right or wrong.
Gap@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
If I make a model of gravity which says that earth has a gravity of 1000000 m/s^2 then that model would be wrong.
No morality question at all.
Your comment however feels like an AI trying to justify the existence of AI models through the argument of “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”
Viceversa@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Who are talking about morals?
ThomasWilliams@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
The current does flow from positive to negative. Electricity is not the flow of electrons - they just generate the field that the electric wave flows through. The electrons don’t actually move very far. The wave flows outside of the wire, not in it.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
not this again … wait i wonder, does this apply to coax cables as well?
Pee_comes_from_the_balls@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Electricity is not a real-concept, it is a qualitative aspect and the elec-root is what defines that aspect. There is no such thing as electricity, but there is current and in analog current, those particles flow as historically, that was the first convention for current. Also, electromotive force is what causes the movement of electrons, the magnetic field is just a componenent and does not induce EMR and the energy generated by it is akin to mechanical “work” caused by kinetic forces. It boggles my mind how even modern electrical engineers sometimes get this wrong.
Omnipitaph@reddthat.com 2 weeks ago
I’m going to be honest, I don’t think I’ve ever been confused when someone used the word “science” before, and it is usually pretty cut and dry what they mean when they use the word “science”.
“The sciences” - Various fields of study using the scientific method. “Doing science” - Using the scientific method to explore some hypothesis or harden a theory. “Scientific advancements” - The furthering of knowledge using the scientific method.
I would think most people feel that “science” is not an abuse of language, but a very clear and useful term, both in and outside of academia. At least with “science” it all revolves around the study of nature, usually through the scientific method. “Electricity” seems more like a vehicle, with parts that have to come together just right or you end up describing an entirely different phenomenon.
“Electricity” as you’ve defined it, is fucking wacko, and does not parallel “science” in anyway I currently see. I’m not saying that you’re statement makes you wacko, but that the culmination of these esoteric concepts makes up what we think of as a broad categorization of “electricity” is wacko.
Your explanation was really enlightening, actually, and while it took me a moment to acclimatize to the information, it was very helpful. Thank you.
xthexder@l.sw0.com 2 weeks ago
Most circuit diagrams do not draw current flowing in any direction at all. It’s just labeled + and -. I don’t see anything wrong with this. Image
deHaga@feddit.uk 2 weeks ago
Logically the switch comes before the bulb.
BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 2 weeks ago
That depends, do you want high or a low side switch? There are valid reasons for either depending on what you’re doing.
Johanno@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
But the current doesn’t care
_druid@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
But then I get to talk about all those holes flowing.
Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Uhhhh…pornhub is that way ----->
_druid@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Wait, no, but first, imagine marbles in a straw!
Bronzebeard@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
I’m sure someone has uploaded some current diagrams…
bandwidthcrisis@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
While we’re at it, is a compass needle’s North pole actually a South so that it points North? Or is the Earth’s North pole actually South so that the needle’s North pole points to it?
(I know that I could look this up, I just want to confuse people.)
mexicancartel@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
But that’s by design, while this is a convention problem
Siethron@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
We decided on North long before we discovered magnetism. But the magnet poles of the earth flip from time to time so ehhh.
j4yc33@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
OMG-O-S-H every circuit designed with conventional current just exploded because of your revelation here.
/s
My friend, this is the same branch of science that got us to space with calculations assuming spherical cows.
rumba@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
So, it doesn’t actually change anything; everything still works the same.
But textbooks need to be thrown away and remade, every circuit diagram, every electrical engineering plan, decades of research and research papers have to be combed and corrected, or accept that they’re wrong.
While technically possible, it would create colossal risk and unending chaos and It’s environmentally unsound, for something that doesn’t change anything in the end.
Lazy is not checking your mail.
Refusing to turn reality on its head for a null change in the end is something else entirely.
RaoulDook@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
They don’t have to remake the textbooks in some cases - I’ve seen electronics (college) textbooks that were printed in 2 different versions for Electron Flow and Hole Flow.
NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
Refusing to turn reality on its head for a null change in the end is something else entirely.
I do agree with you, just want to give voice to the other side of this. Don’t underestimate just how much of a barrier this confusion is in teaching. It’s confusing. Students who are new to electricity almost universally hate this, and in some cases it can cause misunderstanding, miscommunications, etc. There is a genuine cost to this mislabeling, and there would have been effectively no cost if electrons’ charge was considered positive instead of negative.
As I said, I do agree that in practice, with all the existing knowledge, writings and technologies that all agree that electrons are negative, it would be a global disaster if the labeling was switched. There’s no question about it. But I kind of disagree about “null change”, it’s true that it wouldn’t change what we can create or (almost) any of our equations, but it absolutely would make it easier to teach it to future generations.
rumba@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
My electronics teacher weathered it pretty well.
This is a basic circuit. These are how the electric and magnetic fields work. Oh and Franklin fucked up a long time ago, made a guess, and he guessed wrong. So, realistically, electrons flow from negative to positive, and the holes they leave behind flow from positive to negative. (he had already covered PN junctions so it scanned) It doesn’t change the math or anything, just know that electron flow is negative to positive and that’s the last you’ll hear of it. And we all said that’s dumb. And now, in my life, this is like the 5rd time I’ve talked about it since I learned it in 1992.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
Eh, i’ve struggled with this for years but eventually found my peace.
You see, there’s two types of electric current: Electrons moving through a wire, and protons moving through water (the second one is also called a pH gradient, it happens e.g. in cell membranes of chloroplasts, fascinating stuff, check it out).
Basically plants do photosynthesis, which is extremely similar to what solar panels do. They generate an electric current, and in that current, positive charges move, so the “direction of current flow” is the correct one.
I have come to accept that the current inside living beings is more important than the current in all the machinery, because without life there would be no machinery, so life deserves to get the “correct” current.
Fedizen@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
This is such a good view of it that it also makes the professors I had that make the joke about it going backwards seem silly.
A lot of the old experiments on electricity were done with like paper dipped in salt water so of course physicists would lean towards defining it this way.
Fedizen@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Couldn’t you fix this by also defining electrons as positive? Imo the physicists and electrical engineers should fight it out.
Console_Modder@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
The physicists are absolutely right. However, I reject their reality and substitute my own
Fedizen@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
That sounds like the electrical engineers I know
exasperation@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
No I need cations to be positive because the t in the word looks like a little plus sign so that’s an easy way to remember which is cathode/anode or cation/anion.
Fedizen@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
This was very helpful on tests.
IntriguedIceberg@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Could someone explain what makes one pole negative/positive? Like, could we have named them Alice/Bob or is there a specific reason we went with +/-?
Dalvoron@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Guessing here, but +/- is good for describing them as binary opposites as that system already exists. This is a good thing assuming there are two types of charge/pole which behave in opposite ways (Eg move differently in a field). It’s also just good to use numbers so that we can describe the amount of + and the amount of -, which numbers already do. It also allows us to describe neutral as neither + nor -, but 0. Again, we already have a scaffold there for numbers and it’s easy to copy it for new things when that makes sense.
Donjuanme@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Magnets.
If there’s no field there’s 0, if there’s a magnetic field clockwise it makes a positive charge, if there’s a magnetic field rotating counterclockwise it makes a negative charge,
Likewise if there’s a positive charge it makes a clockwise magnetic field and if there’s a negative charge it makes a counter clockwise field. (I may be backwards +/- clockwise/counter clockwise, something about the thumb on my left hand…, but really it’s all arbitrarily named, but the reason you just say negative or positive is that those are scalable measures, you can’t have half a Bob or 2 Alice. )
sbeak@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Since they are quite good opposites, the smart people who figured how all this worked decided on that and we stuck with it based on convention. Like how “Alice” and “Bob” were used in Computer Science since they are generic names beginning with the first two letters of the alphabet (it could have easily been any A and B name, but this is the convention!)
Similar can be said for magnets, the “North” and “South” poles are good opposites. If other people started the trend, we could have easily gotten something else, but this is the convention.
sbeak@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Another example, the use of “abc” and “xyz” in Mathematics. Or “ijk” as index variables when programming loops.
takeda@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
True, but most of laws, equations etc still work and only specific fields need to adjust for this.
Bronzebeard@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
But then you have to flip from the left hand rule to the right hand rule!
Riverside@reddthat.com 2 weeks ago
Currents aren’t drawn incorrectly. Electrons do move backwards, but since their electric charge is negative, the current goes the correct way.
suicidaleggroll@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Current is defined as the flow of positive charge. The fact that electrons, which are negatively charged, actually flow the opposite direction is irrelevant. The diagrams are still correct per the definition of current.
Viceversa@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Current is defined as the flow of positive charge.
No.
electric current, any movement of electric charge carriers, such as subatomic charged particles (e.g., electrons having negative charge, protons having positive charge), ions (atoms that have lost or gained one or more electrons), or holes (electron deficiencies that may be thought of as positive particles).
suicidaleggroll@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
If you read a little lower in the wikipedia page:
The conventional direction of current, also known as conventional current,[10][11] is arbitrarily defined as the direction in which positive charges flow.
Dalvoron@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
I guess it would work much more often, but also not all currents are electrons flowing (Eg ions, holes arguably). I doubt the convention causes much trouble for people
Zacryon@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
Doesn’t matter in a lot of cases. Just state the flow direction and convention once and then stick with it.
DylanMc6@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
I prefer a version of that meme with She-Ra in the meme
WolfLink@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
There are situations where the charge carrier is positive (e.g. a positive ion flowing in a solution)
PointyFluff@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
It’s not that hard. this is a skill issue, OP.
Please do not vote or have children.electricyarn@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
You are a dipshit
Bazell@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
*toxic dipshit.
fleem@piefed.zeromedia.vip 2 weeks ago
so like, on my old car stereo system, the positive was actually coming through the frame of the car? scrape a little spot under the bolt of a seat?
Chippys_mittens@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Red means on green means off, I hate electricity.
mexicancartel@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Black means off?? What’s up with green?
Chippys_mittens@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
In a power plant when looking at your system (various breakers, busses, transformers ect) red is closed (on) and green is open (off). At least in my power plant in the US.
sirico@feddit.uk 2 weeks ago
Not if I lift up the wire
bleistift2@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Obligatory XKCD
Image
howrar@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Turns out Benjamin Franklin had it right, and it was this time traveler that caused him to flip it to the wrong direction.
NeatNit@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
While funny, this doesn’t work because the time traveler told him specifically which one is negative.
OpenStars@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
Damn time travelers,
alwaysnevermessing things up!SLVRDRGN@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Man, this one is a good one.
explodicle@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
IMHO Franklin is one of the few who would go straight to “what is it?” without blinking.
AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
The comic accurately portrays him as nude
orbitz@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Always love their comics but since I don’t know crap about this stuff it’s amusing to see how this one is relevant to a meme. Wish I knew more but only so much I’ve learned so far. One day perhaps but not today.
helpImTrappedOnline@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
The contributes on this site do an excellent job explaining the comics. Not really ELI5, but more ELI15.
It’s okay to not understand every comic, someone else out there figured it and explained it to us.