I also think Java is shit, but if you manage to get a NullPointerException while writing a hello world program, maybe anon is just not cut out for computers?
Anon tries programming in Java
Submitted 5 weeks ago by LiamTheBox@lemmy.world to greentext@sh.itjust.works
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/6f226985-82ad-43ea-80ac-a5ae8c97cc13.jpeg
Comments
svcg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 weeks ago
navi@lemmy.tespia.org 5 weeks ago
I always loved that Java has a NullPointerException but doesn’t have the concept of pointers in the language (only references).
dukatos@lemm.ee 5 weeks ago
That is because they planed to add pointers and then gave up.
starman@programming.dev 5 weeks ago
C# has
NullReferenceExceptionand it actually makes sense.
Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 5 weeks ago
Can anyone who’s actually dealt with Java tell me how much Anon is exaggerating?
scottmeme@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
I’ve worked on a corporate project with multiple Java services, anon isn’t really exaggerating. Java can be a hell scape at times
taladar@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
They forgot to mention that production Java applications apparently need to log a certain minimum number of completely meaningless stacktraces per hour to work properly. Or at least I assume that is the case from the fact that all of them do that.
RogueBanana@lemmy.zip 5 weeks ago
But none of this is relevant for a hello world programming, right?
kitnaht@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I’m pretty sure Java doesn’t have pointers, so writing a hello world application isn’t gonna fuck up nearly that hard.
The one thing he forgot though is that your source file is probably in
com/companyname/net/classes/factory/factoryfactory/worker/lib/bin/refresh/jdk/model/ui/closebutton/press.java
And spread out among a million other directories, and the java file is like…3 lines. But there are 10k files spread all around directories like this that are all 3 lines a piece with a class definition.
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Everything in Java is a hidden pointer
perviouslyiner@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
wait, so when .io gets deregistered, are a load of companies going to have to rename their root directories and rewrite all of their include statements?
Valmond@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
They have sort of pointers, like references, that can be null…
You just “new” stuff to it and let the “garbage” collector deal with freeing stuff up. When it feels like it.
bluelion@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
- a hello world doesn’t need libraries in Java
- installing JDK takes at most 5 steps, depending on the OS
- a nullpointerexception is more likely the developper’s fault (unassigned value, calling a function on a null object)
- IntelliJ is easy to install and modern (granted, other IDEs are very ancient)
- developping GUI apps is a PITA, no matter the ecosystem (generally)
The rest is more or less spot on (no idea about concurrency issues though)
Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
nullpointerexception is more likely the developper’s fault
Of course it was the developer’s fault. But it’s absurd a language without pointers throws an error about pointers.
tyler@programming.dev 5 weeks ago
The date of the post is from this week so it’s not accurate at all. Java does support main outside of a class now, and it doesn’t need to be static, or take args. You wouldn’t use JavaFX in this day and age either. Installing the jdk is absolutely nothing especially if you’re using IntelliJ as it will install it for you and manage everything. No library is even close to 3gb.
This entire post sounds like it was written by someone that last touched Java in 2010.
Source: am a Kotlin dev. Java sucks. None of these are the reasons why.
chunkystyles@sopuli.xyz 5 weeks ago
I’ve been programming in Java professionally for 11 years. It’s not just embellishment, it’s outright lying.
Threads giving you race conditions? All concurrent programming will do that if you’re shit at it.
Java has come a long way. I will admit that UI in Java is terrible. I would never do that.
extremeboredom@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
It’s not accurate to accuse Anon of “lying,” when both their story and yours would point to the race conditions from threads being a symptom of someone who’s just learning the language.
It’s not that seruous though; because it’s a greentext, it is both artificial AND homosexual.
crusa187@lemmy.ml 5 weeks ago
Been coding Java for about 15 years now. Pretty much agree - anon’s primary mistake was using javaFX. From a junior dev perspective I can see why they’d do that, but Java isn’t really meant for building desktop applications, it’s meant to power web apps.
What they should have done instead is create a backend restful web service and wire up a frontend rest client with something suited to web app ui dev such as angular or react. Java has some awesome frameworks built for it over the years, something like spring boot would make building that backend service trivial if you know how to use it. JAX-RS/Jersey or even servlets could be utilized for this instead, if you wanted to.
Spring boot has some nice tooling for thread management, but Java also has pretty good options for this built in as well. As chunky mentioned, if you aren’t already versed in concurrency patterns, don’t try to perform concurrent operations or you’re gonna have a bad time. But do learn how to do this, because exploiting concurrency is one of the golden rules of good computing.
SorteKanin@feddit.dk 5 weeks ago
Threads giving you race conditions? All concurrent programming will do that if you’re shit at it.
Well, if you write Rust then there won’t be race conditions.
Lysergid@lemmy.ml 5 weeks ago
95% exaggeration. Here is reality:
- yeah you need class coz it’s OO-language. Though, not required anymore, which should’ve been done once Java got scrip language capabilities (jshell) back in JDK 9. But as of today not required anymore
- imports exist in most if not all languages. Gotta be insane writing them manually in 2010 let alone 2024
- installing Java runtime (JRE) is as simple as installing any app. Though for installing JDK you need 5 mins for setting PATH. Think about JDK as like TSC or Webpack and JRE as a Browser. I’d argue installing and configuring JDK is simpler than TSC or Webpack
- Unless you doing some non-trivial multi-threading your stack trace will tell you exactly where is your NPE. You gutta be as blind as my teammates to spend more then 1 minutes to find where it is coz it literally tells you file and line numer where Exception occurred
- I mean, yeah if you use IDE from 2000 it will look like it. IntelliJ looks modern, though I don’t like the fact latest versions look like VSCode
- I hardly reach 3G of decencies from all 10 projects I have on my workstation.
- IDK what author means by ecosystem here, Java ecosystem is quite standard across the board. JDK(std lib), Maven/Gradle(deps, build, publishing), Spring Framework (all sorts of blueprints and solutions to standard app level problems), Hibernate/JPA (ORM), JUnit+Mockito (testing). These are tools and libs used in 90% of projects I worked on. Of course there will be more depending on project needs. Layers? It’s not like language imposes any layers whatsoever. It’s just common practice to have 3-4 layers and some glue in-between.
- don’t do GUI in Java it sucks and will suck until Java gets string interpolation. Hopefully soon
- concurrency is actually the only thing which is really bloated in Java. Which will change with next LTS version if I remember correctly. And it’s not that hard if you actually read the f manual and not just “try and hope”. Again it will become much more efficient and easier to follow soon. As of now - yeah, not trivial. But people mostly prematurely optimize, so karma
- Java is kinda have 20 ways to do same thing but actually no. Java built with idea of providing simple building blocks. Then it provides more specific API built on top of those building blocks. It allows to have API which solves typical problems and provides capability to solve custom problems with those building blocks. People often confuse this as many ways to do one thing but it’s like saying “I can have byte array why I need string data type”. Those are different levels of abstraction
rumba@lemmy.zip 5 weeks ago
95% exaggeration if he is a real programmer.
If he just tried to walk into Java knowing nothing or maybe PHP, and refused to RTFA, he might experience about 30% to 40% of that I just trying to do everything wrong.
pastel_de_airfryer@lemmy.eco.br 5 weeks ago
It’s possible to get the old InteliJ UI back. Search for the Classic UI plugin.
Pencilnoob@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
It’s much better today, but in 2010 that was 100% accurate.
That being said, using Java as a first time programming language is like a 15 year old trying to fly an airliner to get a few blocks away to pick up some after school snacks. Obviously it’s way overkill. Sure you could get across town with it, but it’s probably 1000x more complicated than just a simple bicycle or even walking.
Java is industrial strength for professionals. There’s absolutely no consideration made for educational usage.
taladar@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
There is also absolutely no consideration in Java for production usage.
SorteKanin@feddit.dk 5 weeks ago
Java is industrial strength for professionals.
Disagree. It’s an outdated tool today. Professionals would not choose it for new projects.
schteph@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Java is religiously backwards compatible. Modern java projects are not as enterprisey and boilerplatey, but, as jdk21 is backwards compatible with jdk1.3, you can still happily write code as if it’s 2003.
Additionally, the java space is huge, so just wildly googling will probably not help you that much.
taladar@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
On the other hand back in Java 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4 days you frequently had companies install a specific patch level version because their applications worked only with that patch level. That was back when Java was actually popular for some reason.
Hawke@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Is that why every single application will only work with some ancient version of Java?(usually 8, sometimes 1.6 or 11)
I can’t think of many cases where Java 21 is a drop in replacement, and I don’t think I anyone actually used 17.
darthelmet@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Only have a beginner perspective, but in school I did really well in intro CS class that used Python. 2nd class was in Java and it almost broke me I was so confused.
naeap@sopuli.xyz 5 weeks ago
Hated Java in school
But before Java I learned a bit of Pascal and C/C++, and I’m so fucking happy that I’m currently working with C++ in my job and not with fucking Java
I still hate it with everything I’ve got …
Valmond@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I have developed in java and C/C++ (many years) and Anon is maybe exaggerating a bit but not lying, we all have been there more or less.
Personally I hate how java forces you into bad architectural choices. Where is the unsigned int? Why isn’t an int a class BTW? Why the pass by copy for some, by reference for others? Where is multi inheritance? Lots of things are dumbed down or you have no choice in the matter.
Sure didn’t help it was a power hungry beast moving at snail speed back in the day too.
tyler@programming.dev 5 weeks ago
I mean they are lying because Java does support main as a top level function now. If this was written last year, sure. Also IntelliJ will literally install the jdk and manage it for you. Using asdf I haven’t had to touch the PATH for Java in probably over a decade (used sdkman before that).
This entire post sounds like someone that last touched Java in 2010 and wanted to complain about it again. Java is shit, but for none of the reasons in the post.
Aganim@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Anon pretty much sums up my experience with Java when I had to learn it in college 20-ish years ago. I’ll never get rid of my distaste for the language I’m afraid.
Imacat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
It certainly can be that bad.
zod000@lemmy.ml 5 weeks ago
Anon is absolutely exaggerating for comic effect. That doesn’t mean Java doesn’t have all of those problems though, it just isn’t as ridiculous as they made it out unless you get dragged into enterprise bullshit (then you’re in for it).
dohpaz42@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
For the “simple” apps anon is talking about, they are exaggerating a lot. Though, when you get beyond the obligatory “Hello World” and “a window with a button”, the complexity does start to increase exponentially.
Throwing in frameworks like Spring or JavaFX does make things more complicated. But it’s still relatively manageable once you get used to it and know what goes where and when.
Now the whole configuration thing, that’s an art form best left to those hooded “seniors”. It’s good to learn eventually, but not when you first start out; lest you have a fetish for pain.
Java has come a long way. It’s not the languages fault that people create monstrosities like
AbstractJavaFinalSerializedFactoryor whatever. But if you do want to be “good” at Java, you will want to learn about design patterns. It also doesn’t hurt to have a thick skin too, because you’ll be both criticized and made fun of for your choices. 😊Aganim@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
also doesn’t hurt to have a thick skin too, because you’ll be both criticized and made fun of for your choices.
As somebody who started out with PHP I can fully relate to this. 😋
SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Yes. Not an exaggeration.
nick@midwest.social 3 weeks ago
Not much at all. It’s truly awful
theneverfox@pawb.social 5 weeks ago
Concurrency isn’t bad, and package management (while maven is absolutely terrible to work generally), the dependency chains aren’t exceptionally bad. Getting it installed is easier than python on platforms it’s not already there on, not because it’s more portable, but because the installers do more for you. Portability is hard, they haven’t done it well but they’ve paved the default use case pretty well (although that works against you when you get to harder cases)
But the rest is pretty close.
The worst is the scaffolding, it’s literally superstition for years to gain the understanding as to why you’re doing it. I took two years of Java in high school before getting a degree - it was 4 years and halfway through a degree before I understood why I was making a class with a method main(string[] args). It works like that because your entry class calls the main method with a list of string arguments… I didn’t understand at all, because even though it’s simple it’s a special case, and I’d never seen anyone name the string array anything different, so I just copied and pasted it, never understanding it because I’d been told “you just have to have that” for do long
Builds are arcane too - there’s still companies that only use netbeans in their build pipeline, Android still requires a specific an old Java version in conjunction with the IDE or a gradle build, at best a project uses maven (the package manager), which is xml based and full of arcane details that are best treated as a magic incantation to be copied exactly from elsewhere
Zaphod@discuss.tchncs.de 5 weeks ago
After working with somewhat modern Java using IntelliJ for 4 years, it’s alright. Null is the most annoying thing imo; just use Optionals instead
KoalaUnknown@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Am I weird for liking Java? I feel like it just makes so much more sense than other languages.
Serinus@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
C# is nearly the same, but much, much better.
- It doesn’t (usually) come with the Java culture 8 layers of abstraction. This isn’t in the Java language. This isn’t in OO. Yet nearly every Java programmer makes things way more complicated than it needs to be.
- It’s a prettier language. Similar syntax with less bullshit.
- It’s open source
- It’s still multiplatform. Modern dotnet / C# works on anything.
- Both Visual Studio and Visual Studio code are great IDEs that blow Eclipse out of the water
- It’s one of the most common business languages.
- It’s going to be supported forever.
If I could restrict the world of programming to two languages, it’d be C# and Rust. C# for most things and Rust for a lower level language.
PlusMinus@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Nah, C# suffers from a lot of the same shit Java does. Needing everything to be a class is just no longer a good design choice (if it ever was). AOT support is still lacking. I don’t get, why it does not have typdefs. I think the solution / project structure is unnecessary and I could probably think of more stuff I dislike about C#. But imho, it still beats Java.
Golang is my choice over C# any time. I strongly prefer how interfaces are handled and I actually like the error handling.
alsimoneau@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
I’ll take Python and Fortran, thank you very much
spongebue@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I only had one job that used C#, and it was the worst job I ever had. Even with the worst possible way to be introduced to the language, I still love it.
Kalladblog@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Isn’t Visual Studio Code just a fancy editor and not an IDE?
sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
I like how straight-forward the syntax is. And it also seems orderly to have everything be a class. There’s a system to it.
I’m using C++ for a project now and I like it in a similar way, but there’s more freedom (everything doesn’t HAVE to be a class). So with C++ I’ll never go back to Java (unless it’s for a job).
chunkystyles@sopuli.xyz 5 weeks ago
No. Every language has its haters. There’s a reason Java is so widely used. If you like it, keep at it.
tempest@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
Yes and the reason is because millions of lines of production code were written and it isn’t worth rewriting them.
Plenty of languages around now that don’t have 30 years of baggage and the specter of Oracle hanging over it.
Now a days many businesses choose Go.
dev_null@lemmy.ml 5 weeks ago
I thought I like Java until I tried Kotlin. It’s everything I liked about Java, but with everything wring with it fixed.
infinite_ass@leminal.space 5 weeks ago
I used to be very into Java and Kotlin looks nice. What’s your favorite IDE?
svcg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 weeks ago
I am a certified Java hater, but you’re allowed to like it. If simple and objected oriented is what you want, I can see the attraction, and it has a good and mature ecosystem.
bitchkat@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
The ecosystem is java’s biggest asset. C# is actually a pretty decent language to develop in but the ecosystem just pales. Zookeeper for example doesn’t have an official client. But one guy ported the Java client but it hasn’t been updated in years. Maybe it’s recently because I moved on from that job.
SorteKanin@feddit.dk 5 weeks ago
Honestly I would consider that a bit weird. At the very least, old-fashioned. If you like Java, it makes me think you haven’t tried a better more modern language to compare it with.
Malfeasant@lemm.ee 5 weeks ago
Which would you suggest? (And if you say python, I will attack you with a pointed stick)
KoalaUnknown@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
The first language I learned was Python and I hated it. I have tried Rust yet but I have tried all the Cs.
lurch@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
No, Java has lots of merits. For example, once you know layout managers, you can have a resizable GUI app in no time. It’s the exact opposite of arranging things pixel by pixel. You just define “I want a grid of these buttons south and a big text field in the center” and Java will do the rest. I whip up apps like this for the silliest things, like noting which dungeon has what rotating boss this week in a game, so it’s more convinient than noting it in a text file.
AusatKeyboardPremi@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I might have agreed a decade or two ago, when I knew no better. But today, I find the tribalism surrounding programming languages comical.
I don’t particularly like Java, but I use it because it pays the bills. Similarly, I use C++ (which I prefer) when my work requires it.
SorteKanin@feddit.dk 5 weeks ago
I don’t particularly like Java, but I use it because it pays the bills. Similarly, I use C++ (which I prefer) when my work requires it.
I mean, anon is not arguing against that. They’re saying the language is shit regardless of how much it is used in business. I don’t think they are entirely wrong.
frayedpickles@lemmy.cafe 5 weeks ago
Tell us more ancient one, your heroic tale of “giving up against the endless weight of capitalism” is fascinating.
babybus@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
If it took anon 30 minutes to write hello world in java, programming is not for anon.
pinkystew@reddthat.com 5 weeks ago
We bow to your wisdom, wise gatekeeper
_____@lemm.ee 5 weeks ago
C# masterrace and I’m tired of pretending it’s not
rekabis@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
C# has had string interpolation for, what - nearly a decade, now? It arrived with C# v6, which was released in 2015.
Meanwhile Java just pulled their implementation out of the latest beta earlier this year because they couldn’t get it to work right.
Don’t know about you, but I think that Java is largely resting on its laurels as of late. That the only real reason to go for it is it’s third-party library system, and not much more.
EnderMB@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
After close to two decades of programming, C# is still the best language I’ve used. While some of the newer features seem a bit weird, I’d say it’s one of the few languages that has never got in the way and has just let me write code that made sense. Even with all the improvements Java has made over the years it’s still nowhere near as good as what C# was like maybe 15 years ago.
The same goes for everyone’s other “fav” language, Python. Ruby has been a better beginner scripting language than Python for many years, and while Rails is definitely a ghetto, as a language Ruby is great at teaching great programming fundamentals.
drake@lemmy.sdf.org 5 weeks ago
C# is pretty good generally - I know it far better than any other and it pays my bills! - but it certainly has its weak points. Particularly around the newer features, a lot of them feel really rushed and just kind of shitty.
The one I hate the most is the whole “nullable” pattern. It’s a total mess. Having to mark up files as
#nullable enable, having to mark methods with a bunch of attributes, and the way that it works differently if it’s a value type or a reference type, it’s just so half-baked.If you spend some time with a more modern language like Rust or Swift then you’ll quickly start to notice C#’s weaknesses.
Orbituary@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
My old boss is one of the 3 initial creators of Java. He ran our department the same way this greentext reads.
He was also a paedo. You can figure out the rest if you dig.
Batman@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
My inner mathematician respects Java. The first step in any problem is defining your universe
lurklurk@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Hello World
30 minutes of boilerplate
writing imports
$ cat <<EOF > Hello.java public class Hello { public static void main(String args[]) { System.out.println("Hello world!"); } } EOF $ java Hello.java Hello world!
ok
jrgn@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Not using Eclipse helps. Using Scala helps even more
Ab_intra@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Just imagine how it must have been to code Minecraft 🤣
WormFood@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
object orientated programming is the wrong idiom for almost all problems, and even in the few cases where it makes sense, you have to be very careful or it’ll hurt you
mlg@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Forgot the JVM eating the entire machine’s RAM for breakfast
Zementid@feddit.nl 5 weeks ago
I really enjoyed the text.
From the perspective of a python programmer it all seems valid.
A Java-Dev would probably write the same about an embedded engineer.
sentient_loom@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
You’re not stuck with it Anon. You can use something different!
yokonzo@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I started with java for school. The day I tried C for the first time I was flabbergasted, “what do you mean it doesn’t matter which order I put things in?”
LodeMike@lemmy.today 5 weeks ago
I don’t think Lemmy would’ve let you post a smaller image.
yamanii@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I still think Java is good for teaching newbies precisely because it will throw an error quickly if they are doing it wrong.
kerrigan778@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Java is terrible and I hated it but I feel like this stuff is not why, this mostly just seems like stuff that most powerful object oriented languages do.
arc@lemm.ee 5 weeks ago
Could be worse, could be programming Javascript (or Typescript).
Malfeasant@lemm.ee 5 weeks ago
Must be several years old - otherwise, javafx deserves quite a bit more ire.
lennivelkant@discuss.tchncs.de 5 weeks ago
Aside from the general stupidity, Java is a heavily front-loaded language in my experience. I’m not going to engage in any tribalism about it or claim that it’s better or worse than others. As a matter of personal taste, I have come to like it, but I had to learn a lot until I reached a level of proficiency where I started considering it usable.
Likewise, there is a level of preparation on the target machines: “Platform-independent” just means you don’t have to compile the program itself for different platforms and architectures like you would with C and its kin, as long as the target machines have an appropriate runtime installed.
Libraries and library management is a whole thing in every general-purpose language I’ve dealt with so far. DSLs get away with including everything domain-specific, but non-specific languages can’t possibly cover everything. Again, Java has a steep learning curve for things like Maven - I find it to be powerful for the things I’ve used it in, but it’s a lot to wrap your head around.
It definitely isn’t beginner-friendly and I still think my university was wrong to start right into it with the first programming classes. Part of it was the teacher (Technically excellent, didactically atrocious), but it also wasn’t a great entry point into programming in general.
coffee_with_cream@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
I learned programming with Java and then thankfully never had to use it since CS102. HATRED
Pieisawesome@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Just use c#
Drz@feddit.uk 5 weeks ago
MooseTheDog@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I’ll never get the hate for java and love for python. It’s like learning mandarin because you think it’s easier than Spanish. When you know java you also kinda know javascript, C, Php, and others. When you know python, it’s probably a government sponsored course, or a programming class talked your school district into buying their “intro to programming python course”. Plus you only get to know python. I’ll die on this hill
AVincentInSpace@pawb.social 4 weeks ago
Anyone who knows me knows that I hate Java with the fire of a thousand suns, but this is just sad. Most of these are true of any programming language. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to hate Java besides the fact that its concurrency utilities are as utterly shite as those of its 90s contemporaries, like the fact that it does not support multiple inheritance, or remote interface implementation, or any form of namespacing besides the goddamned filesystem, or unsigned integers, or string formatting, or
cows_are_underrated@feddit.org 5 weeks ago
Trying to print hello world is actually pretty easy
public static void main[Args]{ SystemPrintOutLn(“Helli world”); }That’s should be it. But I can devinetively agree. For simple tasks Java is to complex because you need to do to much stuff prior to it. If you have more complex things its actually not that bad since if you have a good polished infrastructure it can be quite good.
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 5 weeks ago
Thats your first mistake bucko