Serious statement: I don't understand the argument that not voting for Harris was the morally correct thing to do, because of Gaza. Why does anyone believe this?

Submitted ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨lousyd@lemmy.sdf.org⁩ to ⁨[deleted]⁩

And I’m being serious. I feel like there might be an argument there, I just don’t understand it. Can someone please “steelman” that argument for me?

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FenrirIII@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
I know people who voted neither candidate because Trump was horrible and Harris was pro-choice. Single-issue voters are the death of democracy. Full stop.

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- minnow@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Radicals ruin everything.
  
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  - LainTrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Thing is you can actually be radical. In a healthy democracy you need some small fringes to exert pressure, e.g. civil right activist groups and so on so that the government isn’t able to just completely ignore portions of the population.
    
    But to be effective as an activist you have to know when to put on pressure and when to unite. Malcolm X or Fred Hampton didn’t go vote for David Duke just because MLK was a pacifist.
    
    This was the wrong time to pressure because as always activists dramatically misread the levels of actual support for their cause and dramatically underestimate how much support the general populace gives the opposition.
    
    Most people don’t even agree on the very basic facts of reality or that such a thing can even exist, how tf are you gonna expect to convince them of anything? What you gonna write some long post on it? Good luck - they cannot read.
    
    Humanity is just a dogshit species. To even agree that we shouldn’t stab ourselves in our proverbial balls with a proverbial milwaukee power drill - it takes like generations and most people are always for the status quo and the worst possible version of everything is the default we have to work from and with, it’s just a cruel joke.
    
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  - steal_your_face@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Only a radical speaks in absolutes
    
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- freebee@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Only in a two-party system. Locked in a two party system is the death of it. At least introduce multiple rounds, two democratically elect the 2 contestants in the final round…
  
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  - octopus_ink@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    
    Only in a two-party system.
    
    So you mean - like the system this election took place within?
    
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- scarabic@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Sometimes being a single issue voter happens because people just care that much about that one issue. But there’s a natural tendency for anyone’s decision to come down to one thing. Complex issues are complex, most people don’t know what’s right. But then they do have ONE thing that they consider black-and-white, so that influences their choice. It gives them something they feel they can say to others “I just can’t bring myself to vote for someone who XYZ…”
  
  Because let’s face it: no one wants to hear your entire list of political calculations. People’s choices are absolutely influenced by thoughts of how they’ll justify themselves to the people they know. And having one big pithy thing to say is more convenient than a subtle position based on a score of factors.
  
  Humans are social, emotional, idiosyncratic shortcut machines, not logic engines.
  
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LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
There are a variety of reasons.

Some people feel that voting is offering material support to a specific candidate or system, and they cannot bring themselves to do so given the horrors that that person or system is either supporting or failing to condemn.

Others may feel that strategically withholding their vote as a punishment may motivate democrats to take these types of issues more seriously in the future.

Or they may feel that their vote is more impactful magnifying the voice and power of third parties who offer more meaningful solutions to end the killing, even if they won’t win.

Others still may believe that Trump’s incompetence will accelerate the end of America imperialism and lead to a better global political situation sometime in the future.

Finally, some people feel that voting won’t matter at all and is a distraction from efforts to directly slow or stop the war machine.

I don’t personally endorse any of these viewpoints, but some are relatively serious positions and others are not, in my opinion.

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- spankmonkey@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  
  Others may feel that strategically withholding their vote as a punishment may motivate democrats to take these types of issues more seriously in the future.
  
  They never learn though.
  
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  - nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    
    They never learn though.
    
    And we’re out of chances for them to do so.
    
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GrymEdm@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
A lot of people did in fact set aside Gaza until Trump was stopped. As for those that didn’t, they should have listened to Bernie Sanders. I did months ago and went all-in on Dem support. There were multiple times when I wrote up a post about US support of Gaza and then didn’t post it because I didn’t want to turn a voter into a non-voter or worse a Trump supporter.

I understand their position of never rewarding ethnic cleansing and war crimes though. To them it was like them to support Nazis on the basis the alternative is worse, and they chose to make sure the Dems know they would never “settle”. The support for Israel made it especially hard for Arab Americans to vote Dem. It’s difficult to support a party that has been in power during the whole conflict yet gives unconditional support for the illegal murder of Arabs.

I’m sure a lot also felt disenfranchised by the bipartisan protest suppression and condemnation. Even in Dem states peaceful protesters were punished, and sometimes pro-Israeli protesters who attacked got away with it. Then there was the whole “vote with us or else” pressure that went on for months. Dissenters like the “uncommitted” voters were insulted by the party that wanted their unconditional support.

So it’s not like it’s completely insane. But as Sanders points out that position only makes things worse and has done so.

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RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
They believe it because that’s what people have been told to believe.

It should be glaringly obvious that trump’s implied policy that he will let Israel “finish the job” is far worse than the dems poor attempts at negotiating cease-fires or any other moderation on Israel’s aggression.

All the propaganda has focused on the democrat (in)action regarding Israel. Zero on trump’s plans.

That’s what the propaganda machine has been pushing.

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- Dasus@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  
  That’s what the propaganda machine has been pushing.
  
  And there was a strong push from the Russians.
  
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- shadowfax13@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  what moderation ? biden literally told everyone that ukraine is not even getting a paperclip unless we give israel 20 billion as well. he continued saying israel has unconditional support while we were getting footage of pregnant women & kids getting shot at by idf or burning alive in hospital from use of incendiary shells by idf. then harris repeated the same statement on live tv. all this while the working class has been struggling to survive, layoffs everywhere, and price of everything getting doubled.
  
  its not something that can be washed with but that guy will do worse. you can look otherway but dnc basically threatened their voters base with more genocide if not elected. the fact we are even fighting over this instead mass protesting for biden and his administration to be prosecuted shows just how hollow & pathetic the dnc base has become.
  
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  - RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    There you go again.
    
    Dems bad, who cares if trump is worse.
    
    Well, you’ll get what you wanted when Israel finishes off Gaza and everything else, or starts WWIII when they can’t keep the bombs inside their extermination camp.
    
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- inv3r510n@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  That’s because nobody believes biden/Harris and for good reason. They’re lying, they have just as much of a plan to turn Gaza into prime oceanfront real estate for wealthy NYC metro area zionists with dual citizenship and the republicans. They’ll just paint the bombs with progress pride and blm flags while lying to your face about their intentions and speaking out of both sides of their mouth depending on their audience. It’s sickening. They’re both going to genocide Palestinians, does it really matter if they’re turned to glass in days or in weeks?
  
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niktemadur@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Because if it wasn’t Gaza, it would have been another excuse to not lift a lazy goddamned finger and still delude themselves into feeling "morally superior"while sitting on their fat mediocre asses at home.

Before Harris, they also leaned heavily on the “Sleepy Joe” bullshit and “two old white men up for election, who cares”. Once the old “Sleepy Joe” element was removed from the equation, they had to find a way to keep their goddamned stubbornly lazy and ignorant narrative intact.

Now that the election is over, most of these “concerned and outraged” deadweight assholes will never think about Gaza and the plight of its’ people again. And they will keep on feeling smug about themselves.

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- gi1242@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  I know one of those people. they are now angry the left lost… 🙄
  
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  - SLVRDRGN@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Image
    
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- KombatWombat@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  It is rich to criticize the Democrats for claiming moral superiority while doing nothing, as a justification for not voting for the candidate who would at least try to put a leash on what Israel is doing to Gaza.
  
  If you want what’s best for a suffering people, you should vote for the candidate not trying to give their oppressors a blank check. All of America is responsible for what the president we chose does next.
  
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- gerryflap@feddit.nl ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  I’m not American, and I don’t agree with these people either, but I don’t think that calling them lazy and ignorant makes any sense. In the fucked up democracy of the US it’s clear that the only way to get what you want for the coming 4 years is to vote for the least bad candidate. At the same time I can definitely understand that if you view both candidates was horrible, though one way more horrible than the other, you would feel conflicted about voting for either of them.
  
  Let’s do a thought experiment. Assuming both candidates are still roughly equally “popular”. If both candidates wanted to start a genocide, but one would want to kill only 50% of the amount of innocents that the other would kill, how would you vote? Would you vote for the one who is overall the less bad option, which will in turn make you give your vote for something horrible. Or would you abstain and signal that the democracy as it currently stands has lost your confidence entirely, even if it means that on the short term the consequences might be way worse?
  
  Not voting actually costs the democrats something, and should (if they want to win next time) force them to think how to better represent you next time.
  
  It’s fucked up that your democracy came to this. It has become an annoying game theory dilemma instead of voting for the candidate that you actually believe in. Our system here in the Netherlands is certainly also not perfect, since we have too many parties and too long coalition negotiations, but at least I feel like it represents people way better. Anyone can start a party and capture seat if they represent a large enough niche.
  
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- orcrist@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  I said the same thing about people like you before the election, and I’ll repeat it again. The laser focus on single issue voters was and will always be mostly an excuse to blame someone else.
  
  To look at it another way, if this one issue actually decided the election, why didn’t Harris change her strategy two months ago? … Maybe it’s because this wasn’t the determining issue. Or it was, and her staff was incompetent. Take your pick.
  
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- WrenFeathers@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  This is all that needs to be said on the subject.
  
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- Grapho@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  This is fucking rich lmao.
  
  You know who I always see busting their ass protesting, striking, aiding their fellow worker? Not fucking democrats, I’ll tell you that. It’s always third parties who get demonized for not voting for a fascist and then told they get what they deserve when they’re out there serving as a shield against the worst of fascist violence. Americans are so politically illiterate it’d be funny if y’all would go down alone and not threaten to burn the rest of us down with you.
  
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- spujb@lemmy.cafe ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  OP asked for a steelman but good try
  
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Nadru@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
The arguments are as stupid as you guessed.

These are naive emotional people who are dumb as fuck. I know so many in my life and it’s like arguying with a brick wall.

Children still believe we live in a black and white world, democrats are in power now, genocide is happening, they will not vote for them. The concept that both will finance the genocide but another will be much worse is not something they can understand.

You have others that want to intentionally punish democrats for not doing anything. Great in the meantime, Trump will provide a full carte blanche to Nettanyahu in the middle east, he will continue what he’s doing, annex everything without any limits. They were partying in Israel after Trump won.

A third group wants the system to break down because they think if you’re a post collapse society, they will be able to build their utopia.

Yes as dumb idiots living in la la land.

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- Custodian1623@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  They would rather accelerate genocide than admit they’re wrong. It’s disgusting
  
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  - asret@lemmy.zip ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Then work to change it. Your voting system is broken and makes millions feel disenfranchised. People should be able to vote their conscience without worrying about stupid political games.
    
    I’ve criticized then for their voting behavior as well - that if they want outcomes aligned to their values that dictates a particular voting strategy.
    
    But you don’t get to blame them for the outcome. That’s on the broken system, and the failure of the losing party to appeal to them.
    
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huquad@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
It’s the trolley problem. You see a trolley about to kill 5 people. You can pull a lever (vote) and make the trolley only kill 1. In this case, that 1 person is also in the lineup of 5. This distinction makes it obvious the only option is to pull the lever (vote).

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- Draegur@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  They mistakenly believe that by pulling the lever they are complicit in the trolley. That by interacting with the trolley on the trolley’s terms, they are consenting to the trolley’s actions.
  
  I used to believe that too once… Once.
  
  I was disabused of that notion before 2012, but sadly not enough people were.
  
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  - huquad@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Inaction is also an action. You’re always playing the game, might as well learn the rules.
    
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- just_an_average_joe@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  No it’s not. Both the trolley problem and the prisoners dilemma are individual event thought experiments.
  
  Real life is different, it is continuous. The rational choice for an individual event can be very different than a continuous one.
  
  Take the prisoner’s dilemma (or game theory) for instance, it is the rational decision (nash equilibrium) to rat your fellow prisoner out but if you have to do it again and again, then the best strategy is to NOT rat out your fellow prisoner (only rat when they ratted you out in the last round).
  
  Reality is often like this, and elections are also like this. It gets complicated real fast.
  
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  - huquad@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Voting is an individual event
    
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- gerryflap@feddit.nl ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  I agree that people should’ve voted, but I disagree with this one-dimensional line of thinking. I can see the argument that by voting for the democrats their current behaviour and this fucked up system as a whole is warranted. It’s not as simple as “why not vote, it costs you nothing”. By voting this horrible “democracy” is legitimised and the democrats and the system will not change their approach. The US deserves a democracy that actually allows for representation instead of this duopoly of garbage and more garbage
  
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  - huquad@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Not voting doesn’t do anything but make you feel better about yourself. No one in power cares that you didn’t vote. They actually love low voter turnout because it’s an easier demographic to hit
    
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- KombatWombat@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  This is actually a very good comparison, thank you.
  
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- yanksrturnds@lemmings.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  
  You have to be realistic and vote for biden and he’s two trolley problems and three bullshit metaphor to explain that you should vote for us
  
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yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
Russian bots mostly, but also privileged people who think that a Trump presidency won’t affect them

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- halcyoncmdr@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Don’t underestimate the pissed off poor. The Dems kept telling them that things weren’t so bad while the Reps said they’d change things.
  
  The changes will of course be worse, but if things are clearly shit, and someone keeps telling you that it’s not that bad, you start to despise those people even if they’re right.
  
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  - grue@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    
    Don’t underestimate the pissed off poor. The Dems kept telling them that things weren’t so bad while the Reps said they’d change things.
    
    Okay, but those aren’t the single-issue Gaza voters OP was asking about.
    
    Frankly, they should’ve been what OP was asking about though, because they were a way bigger factor (and always are, in every election, despite the Democrats abject refusal to acknowledge it).
    
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  - Fizz@lemmy.nz ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
    Do you have any examples of Dems telling people things werent bad? The closest things I can think of is dems saying we know things are bad but we are working on them and they are getting better. It feels like a republican talking point that dems think things are good.
    
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- Asidonhopo@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
  Sure, Russian bots. But Hasbara likely played a significant role too.
  
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- Zink@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  
  also privileged people who think that a Trump presidency won’t affect them
  
  I’m a privileged person who probably won’t be directly affected by another Trump presidency. Probably. Hopefully.
  
  But anybody who genuinely holds that opinion, and doesn’t care what happens to everybody else, may as well just be a full-on trumper.
  
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RandomVideos@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
The arguments against voting in the USA sound similar to the trolley problem

Some people wouldnt choose to be the reason of the death of one person even if doing nothing causes the death of multiple people

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- Ultraviolet@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  That just means you value your own ability to evade blame over the lives of real people.
  
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- prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Yeah but also they all die anyway.
  
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  - Eyck_of_denesle@lemmy.zip ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    It wasn’t horrifying until now? Maybe they weren’t white or part of your propaganda.
    
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- clutchtwopointzero@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  This is very american - these Gaza supporters protest the suffering of people thousands of miles away and yet think it is okay to bring suffering to everyone in his/her own street
  
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  - Eyck_of_denesle@lemmy.zip ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Almost like they are paying for the people suffering thousands of miles away?
    
    Do you have a brain by any chance?
    
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- SlothMama@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Yes, this is how I felt. I would rather not choose to vote for the ‘lesser of two evils’ and pretend that’s good. It’s not just Gaza though, it’s corporatism, war profiteering, and terrible policy.
  
  I would rather see the system collapse and possibly die in the process than support another shitty government even if it’s the less shitty one.
  
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  - TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    That’s a horrible outlook, and I’m sorry you’ve been driven to that point. I understand, as I have been there before.
    
    Now that I’m older, I don’t think letting apathy win and watching the government go full Fash was the correct choice, but I don’t blame you. The system isn’t going to collapse, though, it’s just going to get a lot shittier for awhile.
    
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Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Non voters are just as responsible for the loss of democracy. They are not a single bit better than any MAGA even if they like to claim they are. They chose fascism over democracy

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- Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  What’s worse is they’re now acting like they got one over on the Democratic party like “ha, stupid Democratic party. I bet they won’t learn”. Like what? You played YOURSELVES, you’re the ones who are gonna suffer. You fucked yourselves over just to spite Harris? Wtf??
  
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  - Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Yeah, I have so many discussion with non voters who sre fucking stupif. “But but Gaza!!” completely ignoring how Trump was escalating the conflict when he was in power and how he praised Netanyahu for his handling of it. If the think the dems are bad for Gaza they have not paid attention to republicans.
    
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  - ilost7489@lemmy.ca ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    Fucking over the usa to own the libs
    
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- jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  America hasnt had a democracy my entire life.
  
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  - Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    It did. It was just a flawed democracy. Now it will be full on fascism. So instead of hope it will get better one day it has gone the worst possible outcome and will not get better until the entire country looks like Berlin '45
    
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blarth@thelemmy.club ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
If you think there was a genuine argument to not vote for Harris over Gaza war crimes, you were amongst those successfully manipulated by Russia. That argument was entirely of America’s enemies’ making as a means to get Trump elected.

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- MathGrunt@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  You are absolutely correct. The unfortunate fact is that propaganda works. Even if you know it is propaganda, it still works.
  
  A bit like a placebo in that regard.
  
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futatorius@lemm.ee ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Because the standard for Democrats is perfectionism, but the standard for Republicans is “That’s just Trump being Trump.”

In other words, they didn’t think it through, they got suckered by propaganda.

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- Moneo@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  Imagine thinking “stop committing a genocide” is perfection.
  
  Liberals are amazing creatures.
  
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  - AngryRobot@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    trump will be 100x worse.
    
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OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I think some people have explained it decently, but as someone who did not vote for Harris, I have a simple explanation:

I do not want the Democratic party to think it’s Ok to be slightly better than Trump. If I’m going to be honest, trans rights and immigration are minor issues compared to inequality and war in Gaza.

The Dems can be better, but they choose not to. Me voting for them tells them that’s acceptable, but it’s not. I supported third party in 2024, and I will continue to do so until the Democrats get serious reform.

(For those who think it would be “less bad” with Harris, that’s the problem. I don’t care for “less bad” when the duopoly got us here regardless. Represent the people.)

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ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Steelman:

The US is currently a fascist, imperialist state. It has brutalized the global south, indigenous people, and POCs generally since its founding and will continue to do so unless the status quo is disrupted and changed significantly.

The Democratic party supports the same militaristic policies and the same neoliberal economic system that the Republicans do. The primary difference between the parties are various social issues that may make life somewhat better or worse for US citizens, but will never address the core problems of fascism, imperialism, and capitalism. Both parties support and protect the status quo. This status quo only benefits the bourgeois class and rich white people and harms literally hundreds of millions of others around the world.

The Democratic party is the only one of the two major parties that the Left has any degree of leverage over since the Democrats want the Left to vote for them. So, organizing to essentially boycott the Democratic party is a powerful method of protest that could effect real policy change. It is possibly the only effective method of protest left since the US police & surveilance state is cracking down on protests and the Left has no chance protesting violently against the most powerful military the world has ever seen.

The only way to make that threat matter to the Democratic party is to follow through if the demands aren’t met, even - or especially if it means a second Trump term.

Strawman:

It would hurt my feelings too much to vote for copmala harm-us. Plus, Trump would let Putin annex Ukraine.

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RvTV95XBeo@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Naïve/entitled people fail to grasp the concept of compromise.

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Blackmist@feddit.uk ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Don’t worry. Trump won. You’ll hear a whole lot less about Gaza and genocide now.

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Katana314@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
My own argument to these people has been that I’d prefer they go out and cast their (wasted) votes for a third party, rather than simply stay home. A lot of Lemmy disagrees with me on that, focusing on the (true) realization that their third parties won’t get elected.

In this election’s current aftermath, much of the blame has been stating that voters were just lazy or unmotivated. The only thing this message encourages is to repeat more rallies, make more promises by demographics and region so people know to get out and vote.

If you vote third party, it sends a message that you are motivated to vote, but you are not pleased with the current messages of the party. That results in a very different change of action.

Unfortunately, this whole practice is extremely long-term-focused. Many people in this election have been desperate for short-term solutions, like the Ukraine/Gaza wars. Ideally, this kind of reaction would have started in 2016/2020 - but third-party votes have been miniscule in those elections too.

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DankDingleberry@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
its funny, because literally the next post after yours was this: theguardian.com/…/trump-blank-check-netanyahu-war…

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mlg@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Image

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Carrolade@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
Honestly for a portion of the ones here online, I don’t think they actually care that much about Gaza except as a convenient tool to attack Americans. It’s academic to them. I don’t expect it’ll stop once Trump is in, they’ll just switch to criticizing Americans overall. They’re mostly leftist agitators, and I honestly think they hate moderate progressives the most, since we’re trying to improve capitalism which makes it harder to undermine and destroy.

For people that actually do care, it’s a personal, emotional argument about not being able to feel good about it, which I understand. It’s a sort of trolley problem. If they don’t vote, they kinda just walk away and the trolley runs over a bunch of people, but they don’t have to watch and bear a sense of personal responsibility at that emotional level for being a part of it. It doesn’t actually benefit Gaza, but there’s only so much they could really do anyway.

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inv3r510n@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I was born and raised Jewish, going to Hebrew school in addition to English school from preschool to 14. The horrors of the Holocaust and all it’s trauma was shoved down my throat at far too young of an age to be appropriate. Never again means so much to me, one of my deepest held beliefs. Never again isn’t just Jews but any group hunted down for their ethnicity (not to mention all the other undesirables murdered in the Holocaust, such as the disabled and queer).

What’s going on in Gaza is a Holocaust. I can’t live with myself and sleep at night if I vote for trump or Harris, because materially for Gaza they are the same. I voted third party.

I will drink liberal tears all damn day long. They can whine and cry and carry on like entitled spoiled rotten children all they want. They were warned that they would lose if they continued to pursue the path they were on and that’s exactly what happened and I have zero remorse for it. And for the record, I’m a visibly queer woman who’s experienced a lot of physical violence in my life for being queer.

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Randomgal@lemmy.ca ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
People are tired of voting for the lesser evil. So now big evil won, and the idea is that that will teach little evil to stop being at all evil.

On a more serious note, I think for a lot of people Gaza was the drop that spilled the glass rather than THE reason they didn’t support Harris.

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inlandempire@jlai.lu ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
Chatgpt translation of a french politician’s analysis on the matter :

Spoiler
In this election, the United States of America couldn’t choose the left because it simply wasn’t an option. Vice President Kamala Harris aligned herself with President Biden and thus approved everything he did—and everything he didn’t do, especially when it comes to the genocide in Gaza. Biden allowed it to continue in all its aspects, month after month, for over a year now. And today, he stands by as Lebanon is invaded and airstrikes occur in neighboring countries. Therefore, the Democrats are directly and personally responsible for this genocide, and it has sparked outrage around the world. How could such a powerful and wealthy country, a political model for so many, which funds and arms 70% of Netanyahu’s war, do nothing to stop this genocide? This heavily discouraged working-class voters and, more broadly, people with a strong humanitarian conscience sensitive to the suffering of others. Trump won because Kamala Harris and this American “left” were unable to mobilize the popular electorate. One could even say they kept their distance from it to appeal to opposing voters. Yet, society showed its left-leaning pulse in referendums held alongside the presidential election. Even in states where Trump won, votes on reproductive rights resulted in victories for the “pro-choice” side. In states where referendums on wages or quality of life were held, left-leaning solutions often won. So we are witnessing a shift to the right in the United States, as in France, but it is driven by the political and media elite. The elites on both sides resemble one another, with their media outlets and pollsters, seeing society as more right-leaning than it actually is. This is devastating when the left fails to stand its ground: the right gains free rein, and the popular left demobilizes. There was no political expression available for those voting in favor of leftist measures in various states. The Harris presidential candidacy didn’t represent these views, so voters didn’t turn out. They gave up. Out of frustration, some may have even voted for Trump, but I believe this was minimal. Harris tried to convince people that, since all the economic indicators were positive, their lives were therefore better. And here we touch on another dimension of this election’s outcome. In the U.S., as in France when President Macron boasted, we heard on all sides that things were improving: lower unemployment, rising income levels, and so on. But ordinary people, those who live by their labor, don’t see things that way. Most Americans know their wages haven’t improved. Most Americans see that they must work harder to maintain a lower quality of life, working more to earn more only to pay for things that cost increasingly more due to inflation, like food. But also the everyday essentials that go unmentioned! While we discuss taxes to denounce social security contributions, we never talk about “private taxes.” Profits and dividends are essentially private taxes on production, benefiting only a few, while public taxes benefit everyone. This is the reality. How many other costs are never counted in mandatory contributions? You’re required to insure your car, your home; you’re required to buy a certain number of things without which you could be penalized for not having. All these costs have risen! […] So, if you work more, maybe you earn more, but you live less comfortably and life becomes increasingly difficult. And ultimately, you live in an ocean of poverty. Even if you have a quiet home, which is your right, when you walk through the streets, you see people sleeping on the ground. You find all kinds of signs of human distress, which hurt you because you can’t pass by without noticing. Above all, you feel personally threatened by it. That’s why what just happened in the United States is a preview of what will happen in all democracies. Today, leaders shift further to the right, scapegoating immigrants, young people, and, broadly speaking, life itself, criticizing it and its risks. All while saying that people are ungrateful because things are supposedly getting better. These leaders will be increasingly punished at the polls. But the situation for those in power remains the same. Trump is a billionaire surrounded by billionaires. He still plans to cut taxes. He still plans to raise tariffs on imports, hoping to make it more attractive to produce things domestically. His form of protectionism is not the same as the protectionism we advocate as the “insoumis.” We support “solidarity-based” protectionism, which aims to protect local production where it’s necessary. For instance, we need to protect local agriculture from imports. But in other areas, we must stop letting the market dictate everything as is happening now. We see factories closing one after another because they can’t compete globally against countries with cheaper social and environmental standards. If Trump imposes the tariffs he has planned, prices in the U.S. will rise until domestic production fills the gaps. It’s simple: these goods will cost more. You can’t avoid them, and they aren’t made locally, so you’ll pay more. He hopes this will push Americans toward local products. Let’s hope there are any to turn to. Personally, I don’t believe the U.S. can rebuild a productive base strong enough to compete with “the world’s factory” in China and the rest of Asia. This goes for us in France, too. Let’s draw some lessons from this. First, for democracy to thrive, there must be real debate on programs, not just on personalities. When all candidates say the same things, there’s no space for real discussion. This is why it all ends in insults and a pitiful spectacle, as we saw in the U.S. There must be genuine policy choices that engage society’s intelligence rather than relying on rejection, hatred, and the discrediting of others. Two worldviews are facing off, in the U.S. as elsewhere. And society understands this. Is it “everyone for themselves,” or is it “all together”? We need this discussion, but in the end, we need to make choices based on concrete, opposing options—not just endless repetition of the same ideas. We must also draw a strategic lesson: society needs alternative choices. That’s why we’re fine with being called the “radical left.” It’s not how we, the “insoumis,” see ourselves, but at least people understand we are proposing something different. Otherwise, people turn away from voting or lean increasingly to the right, looking for scapegoats. The second lesson is that good or bad economic numbers alone don’t convince people to vote a certain way. When people are told the numbers look good, it’s really just a way of saying they have no choice but to vote to keep things the same. People know that under capitalism, their lives are unlikely to improve, but their environment could be entirely devastated. And for those with bad numbers, it’s a way to say nothing can change because of that, as we see in France. Good numbers, bad numbers—the conclusion is always the same. But if we keep things the same, we’re heading for disaster. We can’t win against the “every man for himself” mindset unless we explain why “all together” is essential. An election should be a vision for the future. The world is entering a dangerous phase. At each step, we must reflect on what has just happened and learn from it. The next time challenges come, we must reflect and make informed choices. Kamala Harris, like President Joe Biden, bears personal responsibility for the genocide against Palestinians. They armed those responsible and stood by when they had the means to stop this catastrophe. Harris and Biden are responsible for once again mocking the public, providing none of the answers that American workers expect from a Democratic Party that wants to be the U.S. left. Americans need to break free from this stifling two-party system that prevents progressive choices. I regret that Bernie Sanders and the left of the Democratic Party continued to carry water for Kamala Harris and that Party. Everywhere, we need the courage of our convictions. We must stand firm. Even if we lose because we couldn’t convince others, at least we fought. The worst thing is to lose both our ideas and the elections. That’s why we must learn a lesson from this. And broadly, everyone who wants to break with today’s system must take this lesson seriously—politically, socially, ecologically. We must all believe it’s crucial to stand firm, without compromising to seem more acceptable to our opponents, as Kamala Harris did. This world is unbearable for the majority. A different future must be possible for life to be bearable. And we must take this personally. We must act, not just let events unfold without doing anything, shedding tears before and after—tears of fear, then tears for what we’ve lost.

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djsoren19@yiffit.net ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
To start, we have to understand that the genocide of Palestine started before the October 7th attacks. Israel’s rampant illegal settlements in the Gaza strip may have been the final straw that provoked Hamas to make a move, but Palestinians have been abused, forced into ghettos, and murdered by private citizens for decades. All of this, and nobody in the West ever really batted an eye at the suffering except for a handful of informed leftists.

If Harris had won, the most likely outcome is that the immediate conflict would eventually be paused, just like it paused after the second intifadas. No land would be returned, no settlements removed, but Hamas’ forces would be decimated to the point they could not fight back and Israel would return to their quiet slow genocide until the stars align to renew their attack once more.

Now that Trump has won, the most likely outcome is…that the immediate conflict will eventually pause, just like it paused after the second intifadas. Israel isn’t an island, if they ramp up their aggression ever further, eventually other parts of the world will push for sanctions on Israel. A Trump win doesn’t suddenly give Israel carte blanch to build the gas chambers, they still have to pay lip service to international law. Israel will inflict a grievous wound on Hamas, deep enough that it will take another generation before conflict resumes, and go back to expanding their settlements.

This genocide has been happening since before I was born, and multiple Democrat presidents have had an opportunity to say something or work towards curbing Israeli aggression. They’ve all vaguely promised to work towards a two-state solution, knowing that the current two states are what they want. If Kamala Harris couldn’t even call it a genocide, then she was no different, and it would be foolish to think she would actually take any steps towards meaningfully stopping Israel.

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lurklurk@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
It doesn’t have to make sense for people to convince themselves to do it. It will certainly lead to worse outcomes for gaza

If yoor morals disregard the probable outcomes and is more focused on normative rules you could make some arguments but that kind of purity won’t save a single starving child in gaza

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Fedizen@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
because americans see voting the same as buying and endorsing a thing which is objectively wrong.

Not buying a product hurts the manufacturer.

Not voting does jack shit.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

But overall I don’t think that’s the biggest group of people. The majority of people that didn’t vote I think were tuned out of the election.

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TheFriar@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
Think of voting this way:

Signing your name to a candidate/psrty and what they’ve done/signaled they will do.

A lot of people can’t stomach a candidate who has been courting the neocons and softening their previous mildly progressive stances from the last time dems had a primary and the progressives were showing up in numbers. Everyone got in line and the debates were about M4A, erasing federally held student debt, raising the minimum wage, etc. Sanders single handedly dragged the party to the center (technically more “left” than they were) in 2016/2020 and the dems responded by po’mouthing like they cared about those issues, but then circled the wagons and kicked those voters to the curb.

The party has shown over and over again that they don’t give a shit about working class people, those of us that want real change. They want to maintain the status quo. Which is progressively more hostile capitalism.

Signing your name to that constant move rightward is unthinkable for some. And understandably so.

And that’s before we even discuss the ongoing genocide in Gaza funded and armed by the US. While this administrations representatives in the UN and in any official capacity constantly run defense for the genocide.

Plenty of people could not fathom putting their name on that tragedy.

None of this means that republicans aren’t fuckin neofascist shits. But…how many times have the voters left of the dems been told to eat shit and vote blue because the other guy is worse? WHILE CONSTANTLY COURTING THE RIGHTWING VOTERS WHO MAY HAVE FINALLY GOTTEN SICK OF IT?! Kamala literally said she would be different from Biden by having a Republican in her cabinet. WHAT.

With everything going on, this party said, “yeah, fuck all that. Let’s see if we can grab anyone to the right of us.”

I got sidetracked, but this is the thing. It’s not binary, because geopolitics isn’t binary. The worlds issues aren’t binary. But a binary choice is all we’re given to make.

Just…what. And neither of those two choices was actually going to solve the problems. One was maintaining the problems while one was the problems plus more problems. That’s not an attractive choice.

We all get that trump is much worse. But everyone else needs to understand how sickening that shitty choice was for anyone with a conscience about what’s going on in Gaza, what’s going on with their neighbors. Signing on for more of the same was completely unthinkable for some. That has to be understandable if we are ever going to change things.

We’ve been on the road we’re being forced down now as long as I’ve been around. And the road just keeps going forward. The dems’ proposal is “maintain the course.” The republicans’ was “mash the gas.”

Some people couldn’t stomach going any further down this road. That’s not making a choice to mash the gas. Because the world is not binary.

But you and everyone else posing similar questions is saying “how could you vote for mashing the gas by not wanting to continue down this road?? :(“

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sp3tr4l@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
If you have a particular ideological hang up revolving around the difference between explicit and implicit consent to be governed…

You can view yourself as morally correct for not voting for anyone whom you do not fully support.

Thus you have not given explicit consent to either candidate, or the voting system itself.

Its basically ‘Don’t blame me, I didn’t vote, therefore I am not responsible.’

Its the trolley problem, but you just walk away from both tracks and the lever, and then claim that you did not consciously act to cause any harm, therefore you are guiltless.

…

Unfortunately by this logic it does also mean that you give implicit consent to literally everything your government does if you do not speak out against everything it does that you don’t like, or take some explicit action to countermand.

…

It’s an extremely sophomoric, cowardly and irresponsible stance to take in a situation like this, but there is an underlying logic to it… its just that this logic is ridiculous and absurd.

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Sam_Bass@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
when you are laser focused on a single thing, anything else just slides past you. making life changing decisions with limited information is a uniquely american trait

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queermunist@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago
If Democrats knew they’d lose for supporting genocide,.they wouldn’t have done it. It’s precisely because blue-no-matter-who voters convinced them that they were invincible that they ended up losing. They thought they could bully the base into voting for them because enough of the base was willing to be bullied and proud of it.

On the other side, Trump is more likely to lose the war on Palestine.

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