Serious statement: I don't understand the argument that not voting for Harris was the morally correct thing to do, because of Gaza. Why does anyone believe this?

Comments

• Maggoty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  It’s simple, for a voter that doesn’t have other important things or believes the candidates to be equal in other things, like the economy, it becomes a moral choice to not vote for genocide.

  If they believe there will be human rights violations elsewhere, like in the US, but one candidate and not the other, then the moral choice becomes to limit harm.

  Much of this argument stems from different base assumptions, as follows-

  1. Neither Trump nor Harris will commit other human rights violations, and they are materially the same to my family; staying home is the moral action.

  2. Trump will commit human rights violations, voting for Harris is the moral action.

  3. They will both commit more human rights violations; staying home is the moral action.

  The people who were saying to stay home and not vote fell into camps 1 or 3. If you’re unsure of why someone would believe in number 3 you should know we have illegal debtor’s prisons that are ignored by the federal government, LGBTQ abuse that has gone unchecked by the federal government, illegal denial of asylum directly by the federal government, … the list goes on. But rest assured there are reasons people would see them both as committing human rights violations in the US. This is not some Russian info op like the DNC fanboys would have you believe.

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• Doorbook@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I think there are no right or wrong. It became clear that both Democrats and Republic pushing the same exact support for Israel. When it comes to Palestine there are no lesser Evil.

  Leading to this election, Israel burned hospitals and people in tent alive in Jabalia, barely any internet access, no water or food enters for almost 50 days now.

  They carpet bomb gaza, attack UN bases, and finally declare UNRAWA can no longer work, another UN agency.

  This is under Democrats. They already finishing the job.

  Now what exactly Trump or republic will do is going to be the same. nothing will change because we are at the worst and there is nothing more they can do to make the situation even worse.

  So if they are the same, and the government is not listening then what is the point of participation in election?

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  • blackris@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    You are citing one subject here, Palestine. Yes, maybe under Harris nothing would have been different in regards to this. But it is pretty obvious, that under the orange shitstain’s regime, many people all over the world will suffer a lot. The point in participating in this election was to prevent that. You didn’t vote the special representativefor Palestine or some shit, but the president of the most influencial country in the world. Your actions have consequences. All Americans who voted for Trump or did not participate fucked not only themselves, but also so many millions of other people over, so I really thing, they should go fuck themselves.

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    • jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      And your playing whataboutisms. Those other issues are directly related to gaza.

      The military industrial complex loves israel/Palestine conflicts makes them oodles of money. Hence both parties support israel and killing Palestinians.

      The capital class loves suppressing wages and benefits. Hence no pro labor policies from the dems.

      The MIC loves the Ukraine war, see israel above.

      Capital loves monopolies, less competition for workers, easier to raise prices, etc. again reason behind no labor policies.

      LGBT? Same deal. Corporate doesnt care, hence policies generally go through.

      The only difference between dems and repubs is one are religious fanatics. People in currently blue states are safe from them, those who are not, are not.

      All the issues you think just got fucked are going to be mostly unchanged regardless whom won this election. Shitty states going to get shittier. All the lesser evil people will be laser focused on trump now and as a result the representatives will have to do real work.

      The genocide and everything else are one and the same. One is just easier to articulate to people who have some morals, though some will continue the lesser evil nonsense.

      In the meantime find the real progressives in your area and encourage them to run

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    • Maggoty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      The democrats’ hands are not clean. They didn’t fight for human rights even while red states and ICE were busy annihilating them. They had four years to do so, a trifecta in the start, and we watched as red state after red state made being trans illegal. They have been transparent about going after gay and inter racial marriage next. The democrats at the national level haven’t offered anything in response. We also still have illegal debtor’s prisons, child lunch debt, increasing rates of homelessness and abuse of homeless people.

      The democrats can’t just sit there doing nothing and expect people to vote for them.

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  • lurklurk@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    R is pushing more support for Israel so D is the lesser evil. There’s a reason Netanyahu wanted Trump. If you think it couldn’t get worse than D level support, stay tuned

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  • inv3r510n@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Obviously you can’t go back in time but you should of voted for the down ballot candidates that are pertinent to your day to day life where you live, and then voted third party or even left it blank for the president.

    Your local candidates at the state and lower level have nothing to do with Gaza but do decide if your schools are properly staffed and if your potholes are filled, etc.

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• technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  What’s the counter-argument in favor of genocide?

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  • kent_eh@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    What’s the counter-argument in favor of genocide?

    Thw arguement is the party that has been calling for a cease fire since the start if the conflict versus the one that will actively encourage Netanyahu.

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    • Maggoty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      They’ve been calling for it in the most disingneous way possible and Harris failed to separate herself from that. Biden has openly repeated every debunked lie Netanyahu or the IDF offers, even to the point of Netanyahu setting Biden up and walking away when we depended on that statement. We made fun of Trump for the exact same thing with Putin. And you can’t be a meaningful mediator if you’re transparently controlled by one side.

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    • Eyck_of_denesle@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

      One lues about it and one boasts. Both are the same.

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  • Maggoty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I think this point slides right past many people. The Electoral College and the 3/5ths compromise were the original American vote buying scheme. Southerners could literally buy slaves to increase their population and thus number of EC votes for president. They don’t do that anymore but does anyone remember the massive advertisement campaigns of Texas and Florida being cheaper places to live, work, and employ people in the 2010’s? They knew the next census was coming. They got a net gain of 4 more EC votes into their states by giving massive tax incentives to corporations and advertising cheap real estate. (It was 6 overall but 2 came from other red areas)

    The EC was made for gaming the system, it’s still used to game the system, and it should be abolished. Without that marketing campaign PA wouldn’t have been the make or break state last night. A popular vote system is commonly derided as ignoring rural voters, but as we saw last night that’s not true. And any party that ignores such a large demographic would be setting itself up to be on the receiving end of another “southern strategy”.

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    • inv3r510n@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      The republicans have such a stronger political strategy than the democrats to the point that it’s embarrassing.

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• it_a_me@literature.cafe ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  1. Due to the failings of the electoral college system, my state was almost guarenteed to vote the same way as it has for the last 30 years
  2. I did not strongly agree with either party/candidate
  3. I dispise the current two party system that both major parties are incentivized to maintain
  4. Voting for a third party who is incentivised to push for change via ranked voting and other methods does aid them even if they don’t win

  If my state was likely to be contested, I may have voted differently. Voting for a third party in my case however had a greater impact than fighting or joining the tide of my state

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  • HungryJerboa@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Voting third party is fine. Protest voting is acceptable, though this result still fucking sucks. Strategic voting doesn’t have to be the default choice.

    Anybody that did NOT vote, thinking it would be any sort of protest, is completely idiotic. Self imposed disenfranchisement only forfeits your own ability to say byanything about the results.

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• jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  It starts with fury. Everything is beyond messed up over there.

  Add in: anger funnels focus. Tunnel vision. It almost feels morally wrong to think of another thing. Anger helps you in a physical fight, so this makes sense. Also, ordering lunch while your neighbor’s house burns down is kinda dickish.

  Add in: first past the post voting. This is the big clincher. It forces two party systems mathematically, and most people understandably haven’t heard why.

  Factoring in the information in that video, you realize your choice really is Harris or Trump. Third choices get transformed into a vote for the candidate you dislike the most. So you take the best option.

  Take away the knowledge of first past the post, and you have every reason to think that third parties will work if you all just had some spine and imagination, god damnit. You resolve not to let yourself be one of the ones who sat by silently while horrible things happen!

  Cast protest vote thinking it makes you one of the people who actually helped, not realizing first past the post transforms that vote into a vote for trump, and everybody keeps fighting instead of watching that video and letting the facts it points out inform what they do.

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• fsxylo@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Gaza was fucked no matter what, but some people thought the price of selling our country out was worth not ruining their perfect image of themselves.

  If you never do anything, you never have to compromise your morals. Taps forehead

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• BruceTwarzen@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Because they are poorly educated americans maybe

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  • n1ck_n4m3@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    The result of 40+ years of republicans destroying the education system, who’d ever have guessed

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  • shadowfax13@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    wtf ? what kind of education you are got to think that genocide should be non-issue for voters ?

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    • jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      They’re a trash person with no real empathy and failed to realize that arabs had control of 25 electoral votes.

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• TokenBoomer@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Here ya go:

  Here Are 34 Polls That Show A Ceasefire & Weapons Embargo Help Kamala Win

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• someguy3@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Only if you don’t recognize that Trump would be much, much, much worse. And what we see from the election, many can’t seem to see that (in any way).

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• Gointhefridge@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I think people need to stop asking why didn’t people vote for Harris and as why DID people vote for Trump.

  I think everyone on the whole, is completely underestimating the completely apathetic to politics voter. There is a TREMENDOUS section of the population that would sway from Trump if they felt energized to do so. Kamala was not it. Her policies were not it. Her stance alone on Gaza was not enough (but should not be dismissed).

  People voted for trump because they: are a huge supporter, or they felt they had a fatter wallet during his administration. They feel burned by Biden and Kamala is more of the same. Democrats have no one to blame but themselves.

  Biden shouldn’t have even run, no one wanted it. He even said he’d be a transitional president. Then he backed out and Democrats held no primary. Why would any apathetic voter (especially the ones who were unaware Biden dropped out, check google trends) vote for the guy who made their bank accounts smaller if that’s all they care about?

  I voted for Harris but not without reservations. The democrats do nothing to resonate with the left, and continue to distance themselves from leftist policies, which were popular on ballot measures this election.

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  • mightyfoolish@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I asked my coworkers who are mostly black and Puerto Rican (some of them even converted to Islam; none of them seem like atheists). They all agree that Trump will abolish taxes on overtime and forced child support (they swore that they would still pay for what their children actually need; I guess I gave them a “look”). Honestly, I couldn’t find a real source of Trump even promising these things. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was made up on social media.

    It seems that many non-white urban folks voted for Trump. It seems most people just want a promise of food and shelter if they put in the work (people are working so many hours now). There’s probably a logical reason why neither party has a platform anymore.

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  • inv3r510n@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Asking people why they voted for trump, genuinely, required people to actually talk to people different than them and not get triggered and lose their shit in the process. That’s a tall order these days.

    I’m a lifelong political independent (far left and politically homeless in the US) so it’s a lot easier for me to have conversations with trump voters than it is for blue maga to do so.

    The summary of the frighteningly many trump voters I know in VT is that they hated both candidates but found trump marginally better on the economy (they’re worse off now than they were four years ago) and foreign policy (biden was straight up weak, trump can argue that he’s “anti war” although anyone with half a brain shouldn’t believe him he’ll bomb Iran the first chance he gets). They don’t like the Christian fascism, they don’t like the racism, they don’t like the homo/transphobia (or are ambivalent on the trans part, I’m gay and I can confidently say these people aren’t homophobic) - but ultimately these social issues take the backseat to the fact that inflation is fucking them and we’re on the verge of WW3 and both of these things objectively got worse under biden.

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• beliquititious@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I can’t speak for others, but I can tell you why I didn’t vote for Harris.

  I am a lifelong independent voter. In 2016 I wrote in Kanye West, in 2020 I wrote in Nobody, this year I didn’t even vote. (I also voted Bush in '04, Ron Paul in '08, and Obama in '12) I go to the polls even if I am planning to writing in a presidential pick because there are usually ballot issues or other races I care about.

  I decided not to vote when the DNC opted to not hold a primary even though absolutely no one wanted a Biden second term and the deal was elect Biden in 2020 and they’d find someone good for '24. After Biden’s disastrous debate and he dropped out, I was angry because everyone said no to Kamala already in 2020, but they still ran her.

  On the issues, Kamala is too centrist for me and Gaza is a deal breaker. Most Palestinian casualties have been civilians and waaaaay too many children. Using my tax dollars to kill foreign children is not acceptable. I don’t care that Israel is our ally or they they provide us an important strategic resource in the region. I honestly don’t care if Israel wants to do a genocide or if Palestine wants to do a bunch or terrorism, that’s on them. But we don’t have to support it and I won’t vote for anyone who will.

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  • FleetingTit@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    The Democrats at least call for a ceasefire in Gaza, even though they send weapons to Israel. Trump openly admits that he would like Bibi to flatten the place with no regard for human life.

    But I guess both parties are the same.

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    • beliquititious@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      To the dead Palestinian children they are.

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  • LANIK2000@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    If Gaza is such a hot topic for you, how do you justify letting someone that absolutely despises muslims and would love to see them eradicated, enter the white house and likely lift all restrictions on Israel and delivery anything they ask for? There’s little doubt that Haris would have changed the situation much at all, but a Trump win basically solidifies the Palestinian’s fate to die as Israel’s war equipment guinea pigs. Do you feel like your inaction is fine because either way, the genocide doesn’t end?

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    • beliquititious@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Do you feel like your inaction is fine because either way, the genocide doesn’t end?

      Pretty much. Less genocide is not a compelling argument. The children who died with Kamala in the White House would be just as dead with Trump.

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    • yanksrturnds@lemmings.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      You voted for genocide, idiot, shut the fuck up.

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  • lurklurk@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Kanye West?

    well at least you’re consistent…

    Btw, your chosen course of actions indirectly supported the option of spending even more tax dollars on killing people in gaza, so you might want to consider breaking your consistent streak of picking the wrong choice and try woting in a way that aligns with your stated goals

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    • beliquititious@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      To be fair he hadn’t outed himself as a racist asshat in 2016. He was just a narcissist I thought was funnier than Trump.

      As to your point about my inaction contributing to more dead in Gaza, I am indifferent. Any blood on our hands in Gaza is unacceptable. Had Kamala been chosen in a primary I might have considered voting for her as a compromise candidate, but having her foisted on us after the other compromise candidate was too stubborn to step down before he got in the way is bullshit.

      Gaza was what OP asked about, but it’s definitely not the only thing I care about at the polls. The main reason I decided not to vote at all is because the will of the people is not reflected by any politicians. There are a dozen issues most Americans agree on (legal weed, minimum wage) that our current politicians won’t address because they are at odds with donors. I decided it wasn’t worth participating in the political system again until our elected officials do what we want instead of their donors.

      If the oligarchy wants to take over officially I can’t stop them, but I don’t have to participate either.

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    • yanksrturnds@lemmings.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Unlike you voting for the dem, which was directly supporting spending more tax dollars on killing people in gaza. Funny how americans are so brainwashed they need their bad-faithed gaslighting not to feel bad about voting for litteral genociders lmao

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  • ADTJ@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I strongly disagree with aspects of your perspective but I appreciate your honest engagement

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    • beliquititious@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      We’re in kind of a mess right now. The best way we can get out of it is if all of us little people stick together. I’m not a conservative but by Lemmy standards my politics and world view are alien. We all need to figure out a way to coexist and work together if we are ever going to have a chance to deprogram our MAGA neighbors and find a way forward together.

      It seems productive to try to share my weird ass views and try to find common ground.

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  • piyuv@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I strongly think what you did is incorrect but I appreciate you sharing your view, and disapprove those who downvoted you. Upvoted.

    Agreeing with you on Palestine, but I think Trump will be way worse, in that case and many others.

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• spujb@lemmy.cafe ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Late but here’s my model of the situation. Sort of a WIP and very new but a /gen effortpost so I welcome thoughts:

  It’s individualism versus collectivism. The collectivist understands intimately the function of working together for the protection and future of the group. There is no doubt in her mind as to the practical nature of her actions because she can see them play out in her community. Th individualist operates solo; everything for him is about your vote your candidate. This precipitates in a divorce between the individualist and the material outcomes of his actions. This gap, this absence of practicality we could call it, leaves a vaccum where symbolism can enter—this becomes a problem not when symbolism is simply encountered by thr individualist, but when the symbol becomes the act, the vote becomes a kind of personal expression, and any thought for collective consequences fall by the wayside.

  “Ordinarily,” if we imagine such a thing exists, these two identities intermix and act in a complex and altogether non-problematic way; I don’t wish to imply that individualism is simply “bad” while the collective action is “good.” For example, concepts of individualism are fundamental to bearing forward the human rights to consent and bodily autonomy.

  However, the setting and background of your question is the USA, a country that has deep deep historical ties to white supremacist, capitalist, colonialist, even fascist values, all of which hold the individual as intrinsic over the collective. The result is that hyperindividualism is catastrophically rooted into the heart of US society—even in progressive and leftist spaces!

  So, when you see a pro-Palestinian proclaim abstention or that they voted third party, you are witnessing the complex outcome of the intermingling of genuine compassion with the values instilled by white supremacy and individualism. And so you hear the phrase “I just can’t in good conscience vote for XYZ.” To degreesy varrying between people, the vote loses its material value and becomes nothing more than a symbolic moral statement.

  This doesn’t mean that the leftist non-voter is a white supremacist of course! Rather it’s that they have been deeply affected by the presence of those values in their cultural context and have not yet had the opportunity or experience with group frameworks to question their assumptions and reassert the significant importance of collectivism.

  So, in conclusion the unnuanced TLDR is “cuz America is a racist capitalist hellhole.” The good news I conclude from this though is that collectivism can be learned and promoted. Cultural values are definitely not static and perhaps with education, support and time, mindsets among leftists can be shifted to better support the whole of the community.

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• babybus@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Morals and ethics are subjective and based on emotions. That’s why science doesn’t say what’s good or bad. I don’t think you can prove or disprove this argument. People who are strongly focused on Gaza and simply reject views that challenge their own.

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  • ContrarianTrail@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Personally I don’t see morals as entirely subjective.

    I’d say that ‘worst possible misery for everyone’ is objectively bad and any attempt to move away from that is better.

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    • shadowfax13@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      its arguable but not without merit. its very much the same as you don’t negotiate with terrorists. honestly its disgusting that we are questioning morals of not endorsing genocide instead of demanding aipac and dnc to be investigated for war crimes and defrauding its members for the 3rd election in a row.

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  • lousyd@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Morality is not subjective. It is not (or at least should not) be based on emotions.

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    • JigglySackles@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Morality is most definitely subjective. Talk to different groups around the globe and you’ll find different moral boundaries. The morals posed by Islam differ from christianity, which differ from buddhism, which all differ from nihilistic views, and still further diverge from tribal morals of small secluded tribes of people. While they shouldn’t be based on emotion, they do tend to be reactionary and emotional at their outset. And breaking them within any particular group tends to get you strong emotional responses.

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    • jatone@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Is it moral drugs to children? Think long and hard before you answer.

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• moitoi@lemmy.dbzer0.com [bot] ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  It’s not Gaza. It’s that the Dems are a party of the riches. They don’t represent the poorer anymore. When you have this political shift, you open the doors of the far right.

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  • Fedizen@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    This is framing only billionaires can buy. The problem is less this is the reality and more that the billionaires who own like 90% of the media can make people believe’

    Democrats had some solid policies like paid family leave on the table and I just don’t think the messaging made its way to the people that needed to hear it.

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  • AngryRobot@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    And trump represents the poor better???

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    • OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Third parties represent the poor better

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    • Slayan@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

      I guess so, they voted for him.

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    • moitoi@lemmy.dbzer0.com [bot] ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

      Where did I pretend this? Both are for the riches, but, the far right uses populism as a trap.

      The thing is that they need a new narrative and stop being neolibs if they want to win. Playing the game of the enemy doesn’t, people will choose the original.

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• RatzChatsubo@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

  Many people gave up the “vote blue no matter who” sentiment after Bernie lost in 2016. It’s no surprise people are voting with their hearts more than settling for less now.

  What’s interesting is that the Republican party welcomed in these neglected voters.

  I’m not surprised that Trump one at all. Harris and Biden were terrible choices

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• ownsauce@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  • An overly simplistic/naive view of the world. (Not sure what they expect here? Stopping weapons and technology transfer? Maybe the US going to war with Israel to stop the Gaza atrocities? Or are they just expecting something symbolic? If Harris publicly denounced Israel’s actions, would that be enough?)
  • Thinking that the US President has more power than they do in reality (Congress and the Courts, checks and balances)
  • Some logical fallacies they’ve convinced themselves into believing. False Dilemma Fallacy maybe? blog.hubspot.com/…/common-logical-fallacies

  Only a Sith deals in absolutes

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  • orcrist@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    What Harris could have done is besides the point. What she did and didn’t do is a matter of record.

    But look, focus on what I wrote. If it’s your friend or family member then of course you are going to have a simple and strong reaction. It’s fine to try to explain away the badness, and there is some truth to what you wrote, but if someone just lost their cousin, or their daughter’s house was just bombed, they aren’t going to listen to you. That’s natural; that’s reality.

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• Gerudo@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Now Gaza burns faster. Congrats 3rd party fuckers.

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  • knightly@pawb.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Literally all of the third party voters could have voted a straight Democrat ticket and it wouldn’t have affected a single swing state. Third-party voting was down by about 60% versus 2020.

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    • Gerudo@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Maybe not for the popular vote, but in individual districts that were close, it could have. Also, the constant talk for sure influenced some to not bother voting at all due to not having a perfect candidate choice.

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• nutsack@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  this was a Russian troll campaign, in every tanky on Twitter that fell for it is a moron

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  • Maggoty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    The more you delude yourself, the more you erode any chance of a DNC victory in 2028.

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• nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Trump is no worse on Gaza than Harris/Biden. Biden/Harris have not really done anything to stop the war and instead keep letting Israel getting away with it, then encouraging it by giving them more money. Trump and Kamala are basically the same on Israel

  However at least Democrats voice support for Gaza, as long as they are not in power (executive branch) at least someone will be fighting for Gaza.

  In other words, a Democrat house will posture alot and slow down Israeli aid and try to push for more concessions. A Democrat executive and legislative branch will continue steamrolling without resistance

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  • lousyd@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Hmm. Interesting argument.

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• RobotToaster@mander.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Not voting for someone currently providing material support for genocide is morally correct, it’s not complicated.

  If genocide isn’t a red line for you, what is?

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  • lousyd@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    But, given that Trump will very likely be as bad or worse, why give him the chance? Just to be able to make the statement?

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  • spankmonkey@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    So you didn’t vote for anyone for president?

    Stein and Kennedy were only on ballots to help Trump win, and he is even worse on Palestine than Harris.

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    • RobotToaster@mander.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      So you didn’t vote for anyone for president?

      I’m not American.

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    • normal_user@lemmy.one ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      So in the US “democracy”, if you vote for any party other than the Democrats, you are voting for the Republicans ?

      Since voting for both the Democrats and the Republicans is the same as supporting fascism ( unless you want to make me believe that supporting Genocide is not fascist ), I guess it is easy to understand why many people chose not to vote.

      But I guess a fascism that pretends to be democratic is better in your eyes than one that is explicit. In my opinion none of the two deserve any support.

      Also imagine how full of themselves the Democratic party elite must be to run the VP of a president that people see negatively on both foreign policy (Gaza) and the economy ( a lot of people see their financial situation as worse off after Biden’s 4 years). And Kamala H. literally aligned herself with Biden on everything !

      There was no reason to vote for her other than “she is not Trump”. She gave no hope to the electorate for a better future, and for this reason people didn’t show up and vote for her.

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• orcrist@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  If you have a friend or family member, living or dead in Palestine, how could you vote for her? Even knowing Trump would probably be worse, it’s hard to imagine the pain it would cause to choose her name, knowing what she supported, and would have continued to encourage.

  (Others mentioned other reasons, and I won’t repeat theirs.)

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  • lurklurk@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I’d probably vote for the option causing a bit less suffering in Gaza, as hard as I could. I would not refuse to vote because the lesser evil was still bad.

    It’s not hard really

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• it_depends_man@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  1. the world doesn’t owe you at least one morally correct choice. They can also just all be morally bad choices.
  2. morals on your point of view what correct behavior is and on the social group you want to be respected and accepted by. (2.1 because of that, morals are subjective, made up, and can be whatever anyone wants.)

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• darthelmet@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  For me: Voting represents support for both the process and the government that results from that process. By voting you are essentially expressing that you submit to the electoral process as the sole means for the exercise of political power. Even if you don’t like the results, you’ve agreed to accept it because the rules are more important than the results.

  Some obvious problems with that: What if the process itself isn’t fair in the first place? We don’t really get to choose our leaders. We get presented with a set of options which are acceptable to capitalists and are asked our opinion on which we like more. You could write multiple books on the ways the US electoral process has been structured to disenfranchise people and reduce the impact they can have on their government, but fundamentally it comes down to the fact that the government doesn’t represent people and that’s a feature, not a bug.

  So we end up with a pair of awful candidates who both have done and will do more awful shit. If the election randomly fell out of the sky without context, sure, you could argue about one being technically better than the other. But it didn’t. It’s this way for a reason. It’s this way because people are willing to cede their expression of political power to it despite the fact that it’s clearly unaccountable to them.

  Voting is just supporting the system that’s deprived us of any real democracy while normalizing fascism to protect itself. Voting is a fairly low information form of political expression. You don’t get the choice to be like “Oh I’ll begrudgingly support this candidate, but this this and that are things I don’t like and want them to change.” You get two boxes. Each one represents EVERYTHING the candidate stands for plus the implicit choice of accepting the process in the first place.

  If people want things to get better, they have to organize and take real, tangible actions rather than just begging capitalist politicians to do stuff for us every 2-4 years. People should be doing this regardless of who’s in office, but let’s put a fine point on it: People are worried that Trump is gonna be fascist, take away people’s rights, and end democracy. Are you just going to accept that because he won the election? Are the rules that bind the process more important to you than the results? If not, you should be willing to do what it takes to stop him instead of chastising that people didn’t show up to participate in a sham of an electoral system.

  For what it’s worth, I actually did go to the polls to vote specifically on an equal rights ballot measure in NY. At least that has a semblance of direct democracy. There I’m explicitly saying “I support this policy specifically” instead of supporting a candidate who just says they support those things while also doing awful shit. It passed, so that’s nice. If anything I’m more pissed at Californians for voting against a measure to END SLAVERY than I am with people who didn’t want to vote for a person currently engaged in supporting a genocide.

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  • brandon@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I’m curious where this notion comes from:

    By voting you are essentially expressing that you submit to the electoral process as the sole means for the exercise of political power.

    Do you? Does voting necessarily mean that you can’t also express political power in other ways? Sure, it’s true that most voters don’t really engage with politics outside of the major elections, but that’s got nothing to do with them being voters, many Americans don’t even engage with the elections at all. Why would it be the case that participating in voting means you submit to the electoral process as the sole means of exercising political power? In fact this seems easily disproven by the fact that most political power in this country is exercised by the capital class, but those people still vote.

    Even if you don’t like the results, you’ve agreed to accept it because the rules are more important than the results.

    Is this actually a condition of voting? What sets these conditions? Are you talking about the social notions of ‘civility politics’ or ‘decorum’ that liberals are so fond of? They’ll try to hold you to those standards regardless of whether or not you vote.

    For what it’s worth, I agree with you broadly that there are serious problems with the electoral system, capitalism, the United States, whatever. I also agree that chastising nonvoters is also counter productive. I also agree that voting is probably not going to get us the broad systemic changes that we need. I just don’t really understand the argument that voting somehow precludes one from also doing the actual organizing and activism work we need.

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    • darthelmet@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      There’s a philosophical and a practical side to this:

      Philosophically, the core of a democratic system is the peaceful transition of power. The idea that you won’t just try to force your will over people with violence and will respect the will of the populace. This is a fine principle in a proper democracy with a fair process and political outcomes that fall within acceptable ranges. If you wanted more money for the trains and someone else wanted more money for the busses, that’s a disagreement you can live with. And if the voting system is set up so you had equal chances both to introduce topics/candidates and vote on them, then great. By accepting the election and not trying to go outside the system to get your way, you keep the peace and allow for that process to be a viable vehicle for change.

      If this is a requirement for democracy, then the converse is that if a system isn’t fair and produces unacceptable results (eg, Nazis and genocide), participating in it merely legitimizes it. Obviously nothing physically stops you from organizing, but symbolically you’ve shown that you view the system as the sole legitimate way to exert political power and garner authority. And people will then turn around and say you should vote instead of doing xyz actions. “I don’t agree with your methods.”

      On the practical side of this: people put a lot of time, energy, and political capital into supporting candidates in these elections. It eats up the public bandwidth, crowding out other forms of political participation. In addition, once someone works hard to get their candidate elected, there is an impulse, an incentive, to defend them. The people who said to suck it up, vote for Biden, then push him to the left turned around and chastised leftists for protesting over things like the continued anti-immigration policies or the support for Israel’s genocide. US electoral politics is a team sport. People get psychologically invested in their team. They don’t like it when you criticize their team. This makes them resistant to change even on policies they nominally support. I think encouraging people to maintain that emotional investment in elections is harmful. It hinders organizing efforts. It hurts attempts to build class consciousness because it gets people to think about their fellow workers as the enemy and capitalists as potential allies. And the corresponding obsession with 24 hour news cycles turns politics into a TV show. Trying to talk to libs about any history older than like a week ago or maybe at most a presidential term is impossible. If it wasn’t on their favorite TV show it doesn’t exist.

      We need to be drawing people’s attention to actual types of political participation. Elections don’t just distract from that, they make people think they’re doing the right thing. It’s a release.

      All that said, that’s not to say there’s never value in any part of the electoral system, it’s just very limited. Bernie’s attempts at running were part of what got me more engaged in politics and shifted me from being a progressive-ish lib to being more of a socialist. Important to that though was not just the policy platform, but the structure and messaging of the campaign promoted the importance of mass political participation. I ended up meeting some local socialist groups in the process of going to campaign volunteering. However, most of the time and energy still went into the election only for the system to block us at the end and Bernie to give in. Tons of hours of volunteer time went into doing little more than getting people to sign ballot petitions. We weren’t getting those people into a union or a mutual aid group or anything. We basically just tossed our energy into the void.

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• TheBananaKing@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Consider how you’d go about exploiting the opposite case.

  If people will always vote for the slightly-less-worse candidate, then you only ever have to be slightly-less-worse than the opposition. You can sleaze right up to them and be almost as corrupt and evil as they are, so long as there’s just a little bit of extra sleaze sticking out that you can point to as the worse alternative. And you can farm the shit out of that, because then the other side never has to improve either - it’s an anti-competitive duopoly, where they both agree to only compete over surface details, not their overall horribleness, leaving them free to sleaze right up to the fucking-monster end of the spectrum.

  Presumably a percentage of people refused to enable that behaviour, and said that slightly-less-genocide is a bridge too fucking far.

  They made it plain from the outset that if the dems wanted to play chicken on this, the dems would lose. That they were not to big to fail, that daddy wouldn’t bail them out this time; put down the bombs or you’re getting kicked out for real.

  The morally-correct choice would have been for the dems to stop supporting genocide, especially with so much at stake.

  There’s this huge narrative that’s been consistently pushed that the actions of politicians are beyond accountability, sent down from on high like acts of god, and that moral responsibility lies only with the voters; that it’s meaningless even imagine any obligation for the ruling class to try and be good enough to vote for.

  You know, the way the fossil fuel lobby found ways to shift the blame onto the consumer instead of themselves. The way the opioid manufacturers did the same. The way the gun manufacturers did the same. The way plastic manufacturers did the same fucking thing as well. We’ll act however we fucking well want to, and if you don’t like it, that’s literally your problem.

  Oh no, you can’t hold us accountable now, it’s the worst possible time. It’s too soon to have this conversation, how can you be so insensitive, can’t you see there’s a highschool full of dead kids?

  Somewhere, sometime, people have to say enough. And they did.

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• answersplease77@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Intresting that we have 20+ different opinions and answers on this post alone, and many are subjectively right.

  My answer would be that Kamala is just another pro-genocide lying ghoul who is bought by lobbyists from different sectors who don’t represent the left or working class. Trump is at least honest about being a bought pro-genocide ghoul who is bought, and that you can look at in the eyes and fight and protest against unlike genocide joe who still until this morning supports Israel with every war crime imagineable while letting Blinken and miller play mental gymnastics in hypocracy in confrences that “they’re trying their best” to end the “war” while sending $25+ billions in military weapons to an ethnostate genocidal aparthied.
  With that given,

  1- It’s more exausting and fruitless to fight a murderous war criminal who keeps lying than one is honest about what they want. We just want a clear enemy and be aware of it because we have been fighting a hidden enemy all this time.

  2- In short it’s the “let it all burn down” logic. Emotions and psychology dictates that if I was unrepresented working class, or considered a single-issue voter because of genocide, or an Arab American whose family getting slaughtered by my government and with my tax money, then I wouldn’t to want help other issues and would want to see everyone suffers more on all other issues because Kamala would not change anything and probably help improve all other issues other than mine which in my and every fair and juat reality is more important than all others.
  It’s because the alternative is to suffer a slower and longer painful death while no one changing anything anyway.

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• finitebanjo@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Nobody with a brain believes that. The major advocates of that ideology wanted Trump to win. It was even being propped up by foreign agents.

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• geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

  You should make a Twitter account and follow some channels posting the war crimes committed by Israel. Be sure to watch some gore. A beheaded baby every day with their guts flowing out.

  You will understand very quickly if you leave the echo chamber and see what the word genocide really means. Only a monster can justify it.

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  • deltapi@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

    Right, because Harris supports genocide. Where did she say that? I’d just like to read it for myself.

    Oh, she didn’t say that? She must have said that Israel should be allowed to continue military operations unchecked.

    She didn’t?

    She must be supporting the use of American forces over there.

    No?

    She must be helping to funnel weapons then.

    No?

    …so what exactly is she doing to support genocide? Oh, I remember. She keeps going over there to disembowel the babies herself when she has spare time.

    We already know Trump thinks that Israel should be free to invade everyone over there, and intends to deport Palestinians who don’t already have permanent residency…

    Help me understand why Harris is the bad choice here.

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    • geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

      Here it is nbcnews.com/…/harris-stands-israels-right-defend-…

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  • RedditRefugee69@lemmynsfw.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

    You should make a Twitter account

    First off all, hell no. You can’t honestly be against the fascism that kills babies in Gaza while advocating for people to sign up for a platform run by Elon Musk. At least not if you’ve thought about it for five seconds with five brain cells, anyway.

    You will understand very quickly if you leave the echo chamber and see what the word genocide really means. Only a monster can justify it.

    Who’s justifying the genocide in Gaza? Not OP. Not the people who voted for Harris over Trump.

    Show your work. How did you come to that conclusion? My feeling is Russian propaganda, but I hope you disprove that suspicion.

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  • x0chi@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

    Yeah, because trump won’t be 1000 times worse… Do you serious believe not it be? And want a reason to hate trump on Palestine, look what he did to Jerusalem, he was the first w president to set Jerusalem as the capital of Israel totally ignoring Palestinians. And have you notice he’s a racist?? One that doesn’t like Arabs in particular as to him all are terrorists. Have you heard that sometimes your got to choose the lesser evil even if it makes you sick in the stomach doing it. That’s life…

    Be happy now, as now you got a president that will totally give Nathaniel all he wants… specially if Nathaniel pays and he will… Congratulations, now you’ve done it 👍

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    • geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨week⁩ ago

      But Hamas

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• bear@lemmynsfw.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Whether or not you agree, the argument is that the Republican party better supports Israel which continues to minimize casualties in the conflict while defending itself with honor and seeking every diplomatic opportunity for peace which is the best possible outcome for the people of Gaza.

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  • caden@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I can guarantee you that is not the argument that anyone not voting for Harris because of Gaza was using.

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• FireTower@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Because most haven’t I will actually answer the call of the question. Voting is perhaps the most important way one can voice their opinion. And carries more effect than most words the average man or woman can utter.

  The largest argument against these types of stances is that it will create a spoiler effect. This usually operates on the premise that a vote to a candidate is owed and not earned and or that it is impossible to achieve a different outcome besides one of the two establishment candidates. This second premise being the results of people who decry voting 3rd party as useless based on a restriction with no physical or legal basis imposed on our society by our society. There’s nothing stopping people from electing anyone else on the ballot.

  If you can acknowledge that we as a society have this power the idea of accepting a lesser evil is weakened. If you vote for a lesser evil you perpetuate the broken system you hate. In your example Gaza, if someone feels that the issue is so important it merits a principled stance how can they not take the stance?

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