I’d really love to travel back in time and first amaze an alchemist that their future colleagues will be able to turn lead into gold. Only to crush them again by explaining that the process is too expensive.
Alchemy is so hot right now.
Submitted 3 weeks ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to science_memes@mander.xyz
https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/a4ee3373-7369-482c-b415-ebff0fd71d81.jpeg
Comments
bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 3 weeks ago
TheFogan@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
I mean I guess the concept there though is, isn’t making things into gold pointless anyway. We can lab make diamonds too, the jewelry industry works to keep them as a distinct alternate product to protect their slave mined ones. Is the quantity used for electronics enough that it would make a difference in typical manufacturing?
Actually kind of the ironic thing to me based on the time. Did gold have a practical use in the days of alchemy? I mean obviously mass producing gold, basically would have made it completely useless back then, it could make a small group of people very rich, provided they kept the method secret and were careful about how much they sold. It seems like the whole idea was flawed on it’s head even if they hadn’t based it on completely incorrect basis of the world.
neatchee@piefed.social 3 weeks ago
The jewelry and investment industries name up 45-50% of gold consumption. Practical and industrial uses make up only 5-10%.
As such, while flooding the market with cheap gold would rapidly lower value, is the amount of gold being generated from fusion reactors is orders of magnitude less than the global consumption rate from jewelry and investment, which seems likely, then the value of the generated gold would remain relatively stable.
in other words, considering that the gold market generates something like $350bn USD per year, and the total market value of “above ground” gold around $25tn USD, even if fusion reactors generate $1bn USD worth of gold it would have a negligible impact on the price of gold while providing significant value to the reactor operators (incentivizing the growth of the fusion reactor industry)
drosophila@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
Alchemists (correctly) observed that everything in the world was subject to disorder and decay ad tome progressed, but noted that gold seemed to be immune to this effect (since it is highly resistant to oxidation). Add into that the belief system that thry were working with:
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That everything in the world exists on a chain of being from the most corrupt at the bottom to the most noble on top (with god being most high).
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That everything is really the same thing, and through physical processes changes its form, including up and down the chain.
And they belived that if they could figure out how to transmute a lesser metal into a more noble one then they could probably move other things up the chain of being as well. Which is why the Philospher’s Stone was supposed to make people unaging and immortal, and cure all disease, in addition to transmuting lesser metals into gold. Alchemists like John of Rupescissa probably belived that creating the Stone would also bring the world closer to the divine in some way, and it was god’s wish for mortals to do this.
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JATtho@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
arxiv.org: a pre-print source, this is not peer-reviewed yet. So, until other papers refer to this paper, it has low significance in the literature. The paper has references to other papers and to previous corpus of knowledge on the subject, which is good. However, this paper is based on simulations only.
Crucially, the scheme identified here does not negatively impact electricity production, and is also compatible with the challenging tritium breeding requirements of fusion power plant design because (n, 2n) reactions of 198Hg drive both transmutation and neutron multiplication
Monte Carlo transport calculations show that neutrons produced in a tokamak power plant can convert the abundant isotope 198Hg to stable 197Au via the (n,2n) channel, yielding several tonnes of gold per plant-year without compromising the tritium breeding ratio.
The decommissioned blanket material would increase in value, and the Mercury-198 in the blanket doesn’t majorly impact its effectiveness in transmuting lithium to tritium.
The “worst” gold isotope half-life is less than a year, so only a modest cool-down is needed for the output:
197Au to be Class 7 when activity concentration is > 2700 pCi/g, which is reached after 13.7 years for the initial concentration listed.
An even more stringent constraint can be applied for any gold that will be regularly handled by the general population. As a highly conservative requirement, we can stipulate that this gold must be less radioactive than a banana. Due to 40K content, bananas have an activity of ∼ 3520 pCi/kg, or about 420 pCi for a single banana. To meet this requirement, a troy ounce of gold with the initial isotope mix shown in Table 2 must sit for about 17.7 years to be below a banana equivalent level of activity.
What strikes me here with this paper is the suggested liquid blanket, so this would be a kin of D-T Fusion MSR. We now have two proposed technologies behind being able handle hot radioactive liquids.
Goodtoknow@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
must sit for about 17.7 years to be below a banana equivalent level of activity.
Banana for scale!
some_kind_of_guy@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I understood some of those words. Nevertheless, thanks for providing some crucial context.
dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It also helps that we’re talking about rather dense nuclei too. So it’s not just a neutron absorbing blanket, but a rather high-performing one at that. Which you need to convert fusion outputs to heat and power anyway. And gold is soluble in mercury anyway, so extraction is already a known (albeit incredibly dangerous) process. Win-win.
yielding several tonnes of gold per plant-year
Mother of god that’s a lot to magic-up outta nowhere. At first I thought this would disrupt the market, but it looks like yearly global gold production is around 3000 tons a year. So it would take a lot of reactors to impact the gold market, so… yeah. Reactors could start paying for themselves.
ulterno@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
Reactors really could start paying for themselves.
Yeah, that should help them with their capital, storage costs and Hg procurement costs.
Now back to the energy generation…
humanspiral@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
The safe level isn’t that important, because the gold can be put into an ETF investment vehicle, which is a substantial enough demand for gold. National reserves (the vast majority of gold demand) too are long term holders.
2t/GWhth is a huge amount. While the best case economics for fusion is 30c/kwh cost = $3m/Gwhe, that would be 3GWhth = 6T of gold. Even at $45/oz (1/100th of current value) that would be $8m/Gwhe revenue, and would likely be able to sell electricity at market rates as the “waste product”, or not even bother with the expense/complexity of electricity generation.
Gumus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Wouldn’t the constant stream of new gold tank the market value?
42beansinapod@discuss.tchncs.de 3 weeks ago
I thought they were going to make helium since it is non-renewable and humans are using it at an unsustainable rate.
Atropos@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
No, silly, we’ll make infinite gold and use that to purchase infinite helium.
Foolproof!
Stern@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Feel like that’s a eventual when the profit margins get right.
mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Can we not spam neutrons at hydrogen?
There’s a lot of hydrogen.
mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Isn’t that half the plan of Helion Energy?
rumba@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Helion got really quiet since that last venture push :)
I’ve seen a few pretty solid questions about the lack of shielding around their running equipment being a red flag that their output is nowhere near what they claimed.
gil2455526@lemmy.eco.br 3 weeks ago
Wasn’t the plan to use the neutrons generated by D-T fusion to generate more tritium because it is very rare on Earth? Didn’t they even not have enough neutrons to generate enough tritium for self sustaining fueling of fusion that the current plan is to use a beryllium blanket to multiply the neutron flux? Where would the extra neutrons for gold transmutation even come from? Waste from the tritium breeding?
A7thStone@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It looks that way.
Monte Carlo transport calculations show that neutrons produced in a tokamak power plant can convert the abundant isotope 198Hg to stable 197Au via the (n,2n) channel, yielding several tonnes of gold per plant-year without compromising the tritium breeding ratio.
gil2455526@lemmy.eco.br 2 weeks ago
Ah, so instead of beryllium using mercury as the neutron flux multiplier with the added benefit of turning it into gold. Neat.
tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
demon-strations
ha
DylanMc6@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
You can’t spell “demonstrations” without “demon” (or “monstra”).
Dippy@beehaw.org 2 weeks ago
I had a d&d one shot character named daemos monstra, he was an edge lord celestial warlock with a little unicorn familiar
Agent641@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Demon I think comes from the Latin meaning “Show” and “money” also comes from “demon” to "show or represent value,from in terms of the hellish entity comes from “Demonic spirits” as in "the ones who show themselves, as opposed to the spirits that don’t show themselves.
Gyroplast@pawb.social 3 weeks ago
Here’s a link to the paper, HTH, HAND.
This is entirely over my head, unfortunately, but massively amusing!
FundMECFS@anarchist.nexus 3 weeks ago
Yeah if anyone has an ELI12 I’d take it
general_kitten@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
nuclear physics is just modern alchemy
Lemminary@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Future physics will be modern magic!
DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 2 weeks ago
Only if you think magic is anything you don’t understand
Zoomboingding@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Coward didn’t even call it alchemy in the abstract
brucethemoose@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
My first thought was “what happens to all that gold under neutron irradiation?” Apparently it transmutes back to Mercury 198 with beta decay, which is the wrong isotope. But if Mercury 198 gets hit again… I think it turns into 199, which is also stable?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold-198
A lot of papers for these reactions are behind stupid subscription paywalls :(
Still though, it does seem extremely fortuitous, and it’s possible the gold doesn’t become impossibly radioactive. Maybe there’s some other chain that will cause problems, but the immediate concern in the bulk materials seems… alright.
Zeusz13@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
You might want to check out our lord and saviour Sci-hub
humanspiral@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
uhm… if gold198 turns back into mercury in 64 hours, and is radioactive in the meantime… that sucks. But what they are doing is turning Mercury198 into mercury197, and that decays into (real) gold197
REDACTED@infosec.pub 3 weeks ago
I feel like this is one of those things governments might get paranoid about because their treasuries are based on a high (constantly increasing increasing due to limited amount) value of gold. Imagine one country figuring out how to produce gold and then every other treasury starts losing it’s value.
tetris11@feddit.uk 3 weeks ago
I wonder what the next “ground currency” will be once we can replicate everything at the atomic level. I’m hoping it’s human trust
space_comrade@hexbear.net 3 weeks ago
14th century alchemist coping and seething rn
_stranger_@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
As soon as they figure out how to turn lead into porn, we’ll be driving personal fusion powered space cars to mars.
Tja@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
Sell lead to a scrapyard, buy porn with the proceeds.
Quadhammer@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I’m choosing to believe their autocorrect turned gold into porn and I can’t stop chuckling
SomeRandomNoob@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
led -> gold -> buys computer -> internet -> porn
cypherpunks@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
www.marathonfusion.com/alchemy.pdf
…substack.com/…/government-funded-alchemy
tldr from that blog's assessment:
> First, the researchers have a high degree of credential credibility. […] These are very much not software engineers who think they’ve solved alchemy after talking with ChatGPT for a year or something. […] > Optimistically, in my mind this leaves about 10% odds that fusion energy becomes commercialized or at least piloted over the next couple decades and Marathon Fusion’s approach for the alchemical production of gold becomes a meaningful consideration for these fusion plants! That’s pretty high, and implies a high value for continuing to research this technology, even if not necessarily for Marathon Fusion specifically. Manifold traders are giving this proposition ~20% odds, which likely reflects the discount rate on a market that only resolves in 10 years, although it also leaves room for other potential methodologies for gold production (presumably also through fusion energy but who knows).
jackr@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
I… don’t know if I want to believe someone who cites a gambling site as a credible source.
Ludrol@szmer.info 3 weeks ago
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
i’d take the citation for economics. maybe business. not physics.
Skullgrid@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Deuterium-tritium sounds a lot like stuff from star trek
cypherpunks@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
that's because it is:
* memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Antideuterium * memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Deuterium * memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Deuterium_cartridge * …fandom.com/…/Deuterium_control_conduit * …fandom.com/…/Deuterium_injection_subsystem * memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Deuterium_filter * memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Deuterium_poisoning * memory-alpha.fandom.com/…/Deuterium_stream_coil * memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Deuterium_tank * memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Tritium * memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Tritium_intermix
DeathsEmbrace@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I wouldnt believe shit until they’ve answered the stability behind these reactions. Like the Lead article where they transformed lead into another element maybe Gold…? Ok but now you would have an unstable isotope of gold that would decay.
neatchee@piefed.social 3 weeks ago
My guy, Au-197 is what’s being created, as stated in the screenshot, and it is the stable isotope of gold. It’s the naturally occurring one.
And the reaction doesn’t need to be especially stable on its own when it is a bonus byproduct of existing fusion reactor processes. The point is that we can take existing and new reactors, add this process, and immediately gain significantly extra value from the stuff we’re already doing.
it’s like hybrid electric cars that charge their batteries using the brakes. You’re already breaking and losing a ton of energy as waste. ANY way to recapture and use that waste energy that yields more value than the materials required to capture it, is an immediate win.
Rentlar@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
If we could go back in time to tell the alchemy conspiracists about disappearing gold that would be wild.
muntedcrocodile@hilariouschaos.com 3 weeks ago
Depends how it decays would it be spitting out protons thus disappearing or spitting out neutrons and be fine?
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 3 weeks ago
Fun fact: The chemistry of oils is called “Öl-Chemie” in german which sounds almost like alchemy.
raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Unfortunately this is only fun, not fact. The actual word is “Petrochemie”.
Cort@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Does that term apply to just petroleum based oils or does it include essential oils extracted from plants, herbs, etc?
mvirts@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
And just like that gold is a proof of work currency. Too bad those economics will change as gold becomes less scarce. Buy mercury now!
HenriVolney@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
This is rich!
princess@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
brucethemoose@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Another thing fusion reactors would be good for is “burning” high radioactivity fission waste.
…Keeping them in a hole isn’t that expensive, so maybe the economic viability is questionable, but still. They are great sources of very high temperature neutrons.
whoisearth@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Shit like this is what makes me question if this is our first run around or if we are looping a creation/destruction loop.
Ancient astronauts.
Younger dryas.
Unified flood myths.
Objects out of place in the larger historical context.
No historical records past cave paintings.
I’m just a bit of a nutter on this. Maybe alchemy was us trying to re-enact what our more advanced ancestors could do before something reset us. Maybe we were so advanced everything was digital and that’s why there’s no records. Books break down. Digital media breaks down. Know what doesn’t? Stone. But you can only do so much to tell people thousands of years from now. So you do what you can do. Oral storytelling, but then languages get lost and evolve but things persist.
It’s a great concept for fantasy or sci Fi.
Anyways I digress.
m0darn@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
It’s a neat idea for sure, but the out of place artifacts are rarely/never as mysterious as people like Graham Hancock would suggest.
Younger Dryas wasn’t as catastrophic either. Nor are flood myths as unified.
It’s fun to imagine possibilities like that but I can’t conceive of how a society could advance to a nonphysical/digital technology paradigm without impacting the earth in enormously detectable ways.
I think it’s interesting to imagine a scenario like what if European explorers shipwrecked on a place like Rapa Nui, the most isolated inhabitable place on the planet. How many generations could they maintain knowledge of the globe, and their culture.
Rooster326@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
Let’s see if they can ask all get along this time… Nope 😞
mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Singularity Sky is not the torment nexus I expected.
Silic0n_Alph4@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Infinite energy for all is cancelled.
Infinite wealth for the shareholders will go ahead instead.
N0t_5ure@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
― Douglas Adams, The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
the thing is you can’t burn other people’s leaves (because they’re not yours), only your own, so you’re the only one who loses out if you do this.
explodicle@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Infinite gold would be useful for electronics, but it would destroy gold’s utility as a long-term store of value. So the wealth for shareholders would be finite, taken from today’s gold holders.
WolfLink@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Mercury isn’t infinite, it just isn’t as broadly useful and valued as gold.
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
So we use silver
falseWhite@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
It’s the same outcome either way if that research/tech is owned privately. Energy is probably worth more than gold TBH. Gold is almost useless, energy on the other hand is needed for everything.