The science also went wrong a lil bit. The Dinos weren’t supposed to be able to breed being all females; but they used frog DNA so some the dinos ended up turning into men and breeding.
Bring them back!!!
Submitted 17 hours ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to science_memes@mander.xyz
https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/829510e1-41de-445e-b89c-82620fe9a98e.png
Comments
Kolanaki@pawb.social 6 hours ago
darkpanda@lemmy.ca 6 hours ago
It never would have happened if they just had stronger laws preventing the dinos from having easy access to gender affirming care.
doomcanoe@sh.itjust.works 5 hours ago
You are under the assumption the scientists listened to the bean counters. I on the otherhand think it’s more likely that any (mad) scientist who could make dinofrogs via genetic manipulation would intentionally splice the ability to self-transition into their creation.
“Demand I make my dinofrogs infertile will you!? I’ll show you… I’ll show all of you!!!”
Ganbat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 hours ago
I mean, it’s about both, but… do people really not catch the whole angle about capitalism and greed? Newman straight up gets everyone killed for a pay day, and doesn’t even make it out himself. The only way it could be more obvious is if it had giant flash red text.
blackbirdbiryani@lemmy.world 5 hours ago
More a reflection of people’s attention spans these days compared to when the movie is released. Read any online discussion about media and it seems like people are on their phones for 40% of the show at minimum.
Hell the original film would probably not do well if released today because it doesn’t have the obvious shoehorned plot points that the new movies have to cut through the morons.
TempermentalAnomaly@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
There were plenty of morons in the 80s and 90s. Half the population suffered from severe lead poisoning. The other half were hopped up on neo liberal propaganda.
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
Science fiction about science gone awry is almost always about non-scientists screwing up.
tal@lemmy.today 3 hours ago
jurassicpark.fandom.com/wiki/Dennis_Nedry
Dennis Theodore[1] Nedry was the main antagonist during the first half of the original Jurassic Park film. He was a computer programmer at Jurassic Park. Due to his financial problems and low salary, he accepted a bribe from Biosyn to smuggle dinosaur embryos off the island.
In both the film and the novel, he is slain by a Dilophosaurus. He was directly responsible for the events that happened in both the novel and film. A combination of factors led to his demise: despite working in a career around dinosaurs and other prehistoric creatures, he had a limited knowledge of them, and greed, which was intertwined by desperation to pay off his debt collectors and make himself rich after that.
echodot@feddit.uk 10 hours ago
If anything Jurassic park is basically a lesson in properly vetting your staff.
Everything that happened happened because Dennis was the only IT guy and basically could do whatever he wanted with zero oversight. It’s not like the dinosaurs were going to break out on their own, even the raptors only got out because the fences were turned off.
Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
He was getting paid peanuts for designing and building an essential system for the running of the park all on his own, working for a guy that constantly bragged about sparing no expense.
IIRC the only interaction between Hammond and Nerdy went something like “you should have negotiated a better contract! Stfu gbtw”, which can pretty much sum up the whole wealth divide between the owners who gain most of the benefit and the workers who actually do the things under capitalism. Except if they aren’t getting the better of everyone on average, they just shut the whole thing down or find others that they do get the better of.
CitizenKong@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
It still comes down to Hammond not paying Nedry enough although he claimed he “spared no expenses”.
Agent641@lemmy.world 2 hours ago
Spared no expense on HR, contact lawyers, and icecream.
svcg@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 hours ago
Jurassic Park is about capitalist hubris.
Jurassic World is about why we should not allow BD Wong to create the reptilian equivalent of the torment nexus.
Agent641@lemmy.world 2 hours ago
The bio science was averaging success. Not their fault that the IT dept fumbled the ball.
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 hours ago
So… in the actual book(s), the problem is a bit of both.
The ‘science’ goes wrong because… well, they do not have complete dinosaur genome sequences.
And they fill in the gaps with a lot of DNA from a certain kind of frog.
A frog, that is later discovered to change its sex, transform from female into male, in environments/situations that are not sufficiently male/female balanced.
The explanation as to why the dinosaurs will not be a problem is that they only make female ones, so the population will remain exactly as they engineer.
… this does not work, because some of the dinos transform their sex, and begin breeding, which they essentially entirely did not account for.
Also in the book(s)… Hammond is much, much more clearly an unscrupulous capitalist… think roughly somebody that would have their accounts managed by Patrick Bateman, or maybe like a modern techbro, but his tech isn’t crypto or ai or hyperscaling whatever bs app… its genetic engineering.
The original movie makes him into… much more of a genuinely enthusiastic, but more innocently naive, and sympathetic character… he is much more straightforwardly a thinly veiled corpo asshole in the book.
And because of this, the book punishes him.
In the book, near the end, as it looks like the surviving cast have escaped imminent danger, and is reasonably safe and secure, awaiting rescue… … Hammond is very directly killed by his own hubris. He decides he has some better idea about what to do, wanders off from the group, gets lost, and is torn to shreds by a pack of compies, compthagnasus, basically 10 or 20 or so of fairly small, maybe 1.5 foot ish tall tiny versions of velociraptors. He makes a final, direct, hubristic act, and is literally torn to shreds by thousands of tiny cuts, but all at one time, the figurative recompense for his lifetime of shitty, reckless, self serving decisions. Critchton was a damn good writer, RIP. Anyway, the second movie, Lost World… is very, very loosely based on the second book, but it features a compy attack event as an inciting incident, the initial event… …but they swap it to occuring to basically a completely innocent family who is vacationing on a nearby island, just a totally different and made up set of characters, where its now just some random assholeish wealthy corpo father who is bring hubristic, and iirc, a little girl is seriously injured, but not killed… Its much less hubristic of a bad decision from the father, as he legitimately had no idea this random island was infested with fucking dinosaurs. Also, iirc, the Lost World movie just throws away these characters, this family, after this gets the plot rolling, I don’t think they are ever on screen again. Its not a well written intro.
…
Its been a while since I’ve seen the original movie, fhe first sequel… and then yeah, never saw anything after that, because they just look immensely, increasingly stupid and nonsensical, not even having internal logic that is coherent or consistent… so I can’t well comment on how the movie universe has evolved.
9point6@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
Well shit, I didn’t think the Jurassic park books would ever end up on my reading list but here we are
hakase@lemmy.zip 14 hours ago
They’re very, very good. I reread them for probably the fourth time just last week.
BossDj@piefed.social 12 hours ago
There's an unexpected amount of philosophical rants and theory dropping throughout the book. Welcome, but unexpected for people who go in to read an action novel.
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 hours ago
Yeah, if you didn’t know, the whole movie franchise is ultimately based on the book, Jurassic Park, by Michael Crichton, who I honestly feel does not get enough credit as a genuinely compelling sci-fi thriller style of author… all the way back in 1969 he wrote Andromeda Strain, he’s written a lot of … yeah, sort of gritty, dense, thriller sci-fi novels.
The original series of movies… well, the first one is a pretty good, pretty adaptation if you’re going for a wider, more family friendly audience… some characters are kind of merged together to keep the plot simpler to follow… its a reasonably faithful adaptation in terms of sticking to the exact contents of the novel, and of course, just a wildly succesful and beloved movie.
Crichton wrote Lost World, a sequel to his book… but the movie sequel Lost World… is basically an entire alternate timeline, a totally different story, only vaguely sharing some similarities with the book Lost World.
Then, every movie after that is just fan fiction, utterly diverged from the actual way the characters are portrayed in the books, plot is completely different, only really just keeping a few characters from the older movies around, but they’re no longer anything like they are in the books, and of course you’ve got all the new characters just shoved into this completely divergent timeline… bleck.
I would strongly encourage you to read at least the first book.
Either every, or nearly every chapter begins with a sort of… disembodied, tangentially relevant thought from Malcolm, who is often relating whatever is roughly going to go on in that chapter to the actual mathematical principles and formulae of chaos theory.
The book functionally gives you an actual ‘Intro to Chaos Theory 101’ lesson as you read through it, with many of the chapters serving as an example, in at least some analagous way, of the concepts in these sort of disembodied, psuedo narration blurbs from Malcolm.
BarrelAgedBoredom@lemmy.zip 14 hours ago
Just hopping in to recommend the books. They’re seriously good and the movies don’t do them justice at all
blazeknave@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
Top comment! Only thing I feel not mentioned, even the science problems can ultimately be attributed to capitalism, as a lack of regulation.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 11 hours ago
…but they swap it to occuring to basically a completely innocent family who is vacationing on a nearby island, just a totally different and made up set of characters, where its now just some random assholeish wealthy corpo father who is being hubristic, and iirc, a little girl is seriously injured, but not killed…
I recall the last chapter of the first book (it’s been awhile since I’ve read it tho) mentions reports dinosaur attacks in nearby villages. But movies are “show don’t tell” so a similar scene is shown. Spielberg isn’t going to show a child being killed, but the point is the same.
Also I think Spielberg making Hammond be for the most part a kindly grandfatherly kind of guy was a smart move. We do see him as being a ruthless kind of person when talking to Nedry, but super kindly when dealing with customers. Many times that’s how it goes, people have said Donald Trump is a nice guy when they meet him in person. And many times billionaires will talk about their lofty altruistic visions, like Mark Zuckerberg talking about wanting to “help the world communicate.”
Hammond being a mustache twirling villain isn’t as interesting as Hammond being a billionaire wanting to secure his legacy by making something the world has never seen before while being out of touch with reality.
You don’t become a billionaire without being able to get investors to buy in to your “vision”. Elon Musk was really good at getting people to invest in projects that’ll never work (like Hyperloop and Starship) by promoting a a rose tinted vision of these projects working. Could even get scientists on board with these projects because those scientists are just thinking about specific problems. not how the whole thing will work together. At least until Musk freaked out about his kid being trans and started hitting the drugs. Hammond in the movies is somewhat similar to Elon Musk before he went nuts… or before he started became very public about how nuts he is.
Eccentric billionaire that seems altruistic, but in the end just an arrogant asshole that gets people killed because of their negligence.
OpenStars@piefed.social 14 hours ago
Actually... "science" is a process of discovery about the natural world. To then use that knowledge gained would be engineering.
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 hours ago
Technically, yes, colloquially, no.
Lussy@hexbear.net 14 hours ago
Great post.
As an aside, I saw the Lost World once and remember it being really, really bad as a kid.
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 hours ago
Yep, I was very dissapointed as well, having read both books after seeing the first movie, lol.
aarRJaay@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
No no no, it’s all about paying your IT people well and being nice to them. If John had been nice to Needry, then Needry wouldn’t have needed to betray him. Pay your IT people, be nice to them and everything would have been fine.
echodot@feddit.uk 10 hours ago
What I can do if my boss pisses me off it’s changes password on a Friday date and then go home.
But_my_mom_says_im_cool@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
Hammond literally good around gaslighting the entire group by saying “spared no expense” when in reality he cheaped out and cut every corner. His undoing was Dennis, who was the lowest bidder in a security contract. Instead of picking the absolute best, Hammond went with the lowest bidders. Even the T. rex fence should not have been so easy to break down, power or not. The entire park was built cheap and fast
Alexstarfire@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
I mean, the science did go wrong too. They tried making dinosaurs all one gender but used DNA from an animal that can spontaneously switch genders. Sounds like they fucked up to me.
echodot@feddit.uk 10 hours ago
Anyone that thinks that dinosaurs are amphibians shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a DNA sequencer.
bramkaandorp@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
Without capitalism, maybe they wouldn’t have continued when they found out there wasn’t enough DNA for complete dinosaurs.
Or maybe they would have had enough time to think things through, and use safer/more appropriate replacement DNA.
Just spit balling.
bhamlin@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
Yeah, “good enough to keep making money” is a very capitalist mindset.
JimVanDeventer@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
I saw one of the more recent-ish movies. One of the dinosaurs removed its subdermal tracking device and the humans find it because it has a big blinking light bulb on it. A big blinking light bulb on a subdermal tracker. Are these movies self aware? Was that supposed to be a joke?
Techranger@infosec.pub 9 hours ago
The tracker must have been made by the same manufacturer that makes all those bombs you see in movies, too. You can tell because they have beepers, digital countdown displays, and sometimes also blinking lights.
JimVanDeventer@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
ACME™
Stern@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
if you build a perpetual motion machine and it eats the postman from seinfeld… you still made a perpetual motipn machine
WhiskyTangoFoxtrot@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
But you’ll have also made an employee of the Big Giant Head angry.
Ymer@feddit.dk 10 hours ago
Newman!
4am@lemmy.zip 16 hours ago
The new movies suck ass because they try to make science the bad guy, but not only is that a shit story we all see through, but it still reads as capitalistic greed and hubris, but now the movie feels like it doesn’t know what it’s talking about.
Midnitte@beehaw.org 16 hours ago
I mean, even the first movie reads that way.
Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.
Meanwhile, the only reason the entire movie happened is because you idiots opened a money generating theme park.
Hadriscus@jlai.lu 15 hours ago
Open a public dinosaur museum somewhere in the swiss alps, with european safety measures and a properly compensated sysadmin. The european union pays for the whole thing while ticket money goes to a research fund. There’s also a backup power grid for the t-rex enclosure. See, it’s not hard.
Zerush@lemmy.ml 17 hours ago
Would be nice to have an pet velociraptor.
gigachad@sh.itjust.works 16 hours ago
Looks like he has the perfect size to bite your balls. Not so sure about the pet suggestion
Dutczar@sopuli.xyz 16 hours ago
Hey, so are plenty of dogs. Doesn’t stop my ball headbashers from being good boys.
Zerush@lemmy.ml 16 hours ago
Also Goose can do it
ryedaft@sh.itjust.works 16 hours ago
Then we just need them to have a social structure compatible with human preferences and 10’000 years of haphazard breeding.
GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 10 hours ago
You would still not want one as a pet.
kibiz0r@midwest.social 14 hours ago
gloriously right
Not really. The dinos were half-baked imitations, not exact replicas. And they evolved in ways the scientists didn’t anticipate, because their reach exceeded their grasp.
There’s definitely an anti-capitalist message, but don’t dismiss the warning about prematurely greenlighting high-stakes scientific initiatives. That’s relevant to the modern world, no matter what our economic model is.
LLMs come to mind. There’s a section of the AI-skeptic folks that say the only problem with AI is the profit motive. I’m not so sure. People will use tech to do all kinds of horrible shit even if they don’t stand to materially benefit. Just look at 4chan.
three_trains_in_a_trenchcoat@piefed.social 14 hours ago
It's much more clear, especially if you read the book, that JP is about accountability. All throughout the book, as shit's going sideways and people are dying, everyone's playing hot potato with accountability. At the end, Grant forces Genero into investigating a wild raptor nest with him, in spite of Genero's protests that he's "just the lawyer" because somebody has to take some accountability.
mavu@discuss.tchncs.de 15 hours ago
A cautionary tale about Tech-bros. Should have listenend to it.
Glitterbomb@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
Every single Crichton book was a cautionary tale about tech bros.
TheBat@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
Except that one about climate change activists engineering a disaster.
ryedaft@sh.itjust.works 17 hours ago
Well… As they point out in the World movies the creatures were never dinosaurs. They were generic chimeras that looked like dinosaurs.
I never understood the whole “They’re making a weapon” plotline though. Unless the weapon makers are either nihilists or libertarians. Oh!
argh_another_username@lemmy.ca 16 hours ago
I read somewhere that if we could bring back a dinosaur, it wouldn’t survive long, because of the oxygen concentration in our atmosphere. Is it true?
LifeInMultipleChoice@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 hours ago
I think that has a lot of variables. Crocodiles were on earth around 250 million years ago, the t rex around 68 million years ago. Crocodiles still breath our atmosphere.
That doesn’t mean other animals didn’t have different breathing parameters though.
webghost0101@sopuli.xyz 16 hours ago
I may have heard a similar thing on a video that compared an elephant sized mouse with a mouse sized elephant.
Neither could survive because evolution designed their bodies for the relative pressure they exist in. This is also related to how fast their hearth beats go.
Human sized bugs could not exist for the same pressure reason also.
Disclaimer: i am as much an expert on this as are you. Source is the internet. Possibility Kurtzgesagt.
ryedaft@sh.itjust.works 16 hours ago
Depends. Something from 125 to 200 millions years ago would probably struggle. Maybe you can put them on a mountain? But that’s probably too cold. But again, Jurassic Park dinosaurs are a mix of animal DNA, contemporary and older.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 10 hours ago
There would definitely be some people in the Pentagon that would try to weaponize velociraptors after seeing what they’re capable of. Dogs are used in war, and there have been attempts to use dolphins and other animals.
An animal that can go into buildings, open doors and methodically search rooms? Yeah they’d definitely be putting some DARPA money into seeing if they could be trained to go into combat situations.
chocrates@piefed.world 10 hours ago
It's funny though, reading those books it seems that Michael Crichton has deep disdain for scientists.
GalaxyBrain@hexbear.net 10 hours ago
He had a deep distain for the privatization of science.
anarchy79@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
I have said for decades that we need to bring back some apex predators and let them roam free.
Tigers, hippos, fucking Komodo dragons.
Let them loose and let them breed.
Not only helping nature along, but it would do humanity a ton of good to be hunted daily.
It would cull the dumb, slow, fat population, bringing our numbers down, and teaching everyone some god damn humility.
I’m dead serious. I’ve been planning to relocate and release Komodo dragons into the Florida swamps. They’d fucking thrive.
Anybody wanna help, DM me.
BryceBassitt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 hours ago
Hard no.
fodor@lemmy.zip 4 hours ago
“Hold hands and say it like me The most shady, Frankie baby, fantastic Graphic, tryin to make dough, like Jurassic Park did quick to spark kids who start shit” -Biggie
wiccan2@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
Even the capitalist hubris is done wrong.
They knew how to activate the dwarfism gene. They could have been selling pygmy raptors and rexes as pets to everyone. At the right size they’d be no more dangerous than dogs or cats.
But no; we need a theme park that eats people.
jubilationtcornpone@sh.itjust.works 13 hours ago
Ingen went all “move fast, break things” but with genetically engineered apex predators. Pretty much worked out exactly as expected.
aeronmelon@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
They spared no expense.
burgerpocalyse@lemmy.world 16 hours ago
there may be anti capital elements but it is a man vs nature plot with a suçon of trying to control something you dont understand or respect
StowawayFog@piefed.social 12 hours ago
Science only views the world through the Cartesian division of subjects and objects and makes the world a calculable resource of objects that capitalism can exploit. The two work together. If we still saw the mystery and divine in nature, maybe we wouldn’t disrespect it so much.
captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 14 hours ago
Yeah, that’s what the line about could vs. should was about.
ThrowawayPermanente@sh.itjust.works 11 hours ago
Comrade Lysenko would never have permitted this
CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social 14 hours ago
I’ve long found the notion that the lesson of Jurassic Park, if a fictional story like that must be taken to have one, should be something like “science/genetic engineering is bad” or “you can’t control nature” to be a bit silly, given that, well, it’s a zoo. With pretty big animals, to be sure, but dinosaurs were animals still, not kaiju or dragons or whatever other fantasy monster, and some genetically modified to be somewhat bigger and lack feathers would still be such. It’s a story about some people building a zoo badly because they didn’t do their due diligence about the animals they had and cheaped out on staff and the systems they had for containing the animals, and somehow people get the take away that “these animals are special and can’t be safely contained” rather than “letting rich people cheap out on safety is a bad idea”.
Were one to write a broadly similar story where someone cheaps out on a park containing elephants and tigers, and they get out and maul some people, it’d be obvious, but give the tigers scales and make them born in a lab and suddenly it’s a monster movie.
MyNameIsIgglePiggle@sh.itjust.works 13 hours ago
Hard agree. My takeaway is the moral of the story is always do quality engineering. There have been like 10 movies and they still don’t know how to construct an enclosure.
MajorMajormajormajor@lemmy.ca 12 hours ago
Why do they always only have one massive entrance to each enclosure? Why is it large enough for the Dinosaur to walk out of? Why don’t they have two doors in series, airlock style?
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 11 hours ago
Where I’m from, when engineers complete their certification they get an iron ring made from the material of a collapsed bridge. This is remind them to not become arrogant and think about everything that could go wrong.
You wouldn’t be able to find a good engineer to design a park for animals no one really knows the behaviour of. Hammond would have to hire the people in this thread who think “yeah we could design something that will contain these animals, no problem at all!”
ZoopZeZoop@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
Wasn’t the issue with Indominus rex that the dinosaur tricked them into thinking it was gone and they left the door open, like idiots? Definitely some things in those movies are engineering issues, but it mostly was a problem because there were multiple points of failure in the system. This is the point I make about my work. My department catches behavior problems from reports, discussions, interviews, and providing technical assistance. We do tons of work regularly and there are overlapping ways to catch the same problem. When my department is given more work and no new staff, they can’t stay on top of everything. They still catch things because the work they are able to do usual catches one of the multiple opportunities. With enough workload added on eventually you end up missing something. When the stakes are life and death, you have multiple layers of protection programmed into the system.
echodot@feddit.uk 10 hours ago
If you put high voltage electric fences around humans they’re pretty well contained. The intelligence level of the dinosaurs was never relevant but the movie did kind of try and suggest that somehow the velociraptors were special simply because they were mildly more intelligent than the rest.
They made a big thing about how raptors can open doors, my cats can open doors.
ZoopZeZoop@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
And your cats would eat you if they could. I’ve had cats gnaw on my fingers and toes, like they were seeing if that would work. Cats are actually worse than dinosaurs, and modern birds, and reptiles, because they usually stop killing when they’re full.
LunarLoony@lemmy.sdf.org 11 hours ago
I’ve just realised - Hammond was such a cheapskate that even the seatbelts in the helicopters didn’t work properly.
chuymatt@startrek.website 10 hours ago
No. It was basically the paleontologist is a Luddite to the extent he did not realize he needed to find the other end, as he had another seats female end as well. He made two females work… which could be a reference to the rest of the movie.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 11 hours ago
It’s Frankenstein… scientists creating life from the parts of dead animals without any regard to the consequences.
Zoos can be poorly built and which can create horrible conditions for animals, but at least with with living animals we know what they eat and how they live in the wild and attempt to construct a micro-habitat for them to have decent lives in. With dead animals brought back to life, we wouldn’t know how to do this.
What does a Triceratops eat? Why is that Triceratops sick? Will a T-Rex be happy living in a paddock being fed goats, or will it be trying to escape? Certain animals are very skilled at escaping enclosures and you have no idea which animals fall into that category. Which animals are going to be afraid of humans? Maybe none of them, maybe all of them, maybe some of them? If the goal is to make a zoo where people can actually see the animals that might be relevant to how the zoo is designed. Which animals will throw things at people, or spit at people?
I think you’re showing the hubris of science that both Frankenstein and Jurrassic Park are warning against. There’s a whole science involved with designing a zoo and they often get things wrong like the maximum height a pissed off tiger can jump. With genetically engineered animals that resemble dinosaurs, there would be more unknown variables than known variables. You’re assuming you know those variable are irrelevant because apparently “good engineers” don’t need to care about factors they don’t understand?
CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social 11 hours ago
No? Im saying those factors should be understandable, they just need to do the relevant testing to figure it out before building something the public could visit. Hence mentioning due diligence.