Submitted 2 weeks ago by iasmina2007@lemmy.world to mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world
It’s the conservative ideology: they see everything as a zero-sum game. If anyone gets something, whether it’s food stamps, medical care, or a place in a college admission, in their minds, that means it must’ve cost somebody else that thing.
That’s just not how the world works
Well they definitely weren’t taking his spot at Harvard, that’s clear
Conservatives are perfectly capable of understanding positive-sum games when they expect the privileged in-group to be the benefactor. What is a labor contract, if not a positive-sum game where the corporation sucks up all the positive gain?
Game theory as a cental tenet of the human condition is a liberal concept, which conservatives will happily discard if it doesn’t suit them. Conservatives may cloak their disapproval in the guise of liberal concerns so that they’re in a stronger debate position in liberal-dominated social circles, but what they’re really upset by is the negation of the conservative world order - a strict hierarchy with narcissistic men at the top of clearly delineated nations, struggling for dominance through pettiness and violence.
They will accept any negative sum game, they will ruin their own livelihoods and their own lives, if only it helps sad little kings of sad little hills.
They will accept any negative sum game, they will ruin their own livelihoods and their own lives, if only it helps sad little kings of sad little hills.
I’m reminded of that book about Authoritarian Personality Types. They did like a model UN / Civilization game kind of thing, where the players represented different countries and could make decisions about policy, war, and so on. There were two groups. Unknown to the players, the people running this experiment put all the people who scored high for authoritarian personality in one group, and everyone else in the other group.
The group with low authoritarian personality scores? Basically everything was fine. They solved the ozone layer crisis. They were solving world hunger. One guy tried to be a dick and the rest of the group brought him in line.
The high authoritarian guys? Nuclear apocalypse. They made them sit in the dark for five minutes to think about what they’d done, and let them have a do-over. They still did a shit job. Petty squabbling. Stealing. Out of control climate crisis.
I don’t think there’s an ethical way to do this in real life, but I do think if you just didn’t allow people with that kind of personality to have any real power, we’d all be much better off.
It’s also possible i mangled the story because I rewrote it here from memory, but I believe it was in this book: theauthoritarians.org
See it’s descriptions like that that make me think conservative ideology is actually a mental health issue, not a political one.
Its a private university you know, they can enrol anyone they like, they don’t “owe” anyone anything.
You forget: conservatives believe that they are entitled to whatever they want
also being hypocrites when they are frothing at the mouth about food stamps, while they are using food stamps and medicaid themselves.
The moment that you call them out on hypocrisy, you’ve already lost. In conservatism, hypocrisy is only a problem if it can be used as a bludgeon against an opponent. Otherwise, it’s a privilege or something to use to rub it in the face of the out group that one has power over them.
The ideology is fundamentally about rigid socioeconomic hierachies that allow cognitive loads to be outsourced to one’s “betters” and power to be exercised over those lower in the hierarchy. The ideology is almost completely opposed to meritocracy - one is supposed to know the station that they were born into and not try to reach too high. And a fun thing that many moderates and center-left folks still don’t get is that conservative morality is based upon the person and their standing in the hierarchy, not their actions (unless they oppose the hierarchy). This is why they don’t give two shits about electing a convicted felon and rapist. And this is also a major part of why neoliberal centrists do everything that they can to prevent laws from applying to said felon and rapist - as someone high in the socioeconomic hierarchy, he’s supposed to be above consequences for any actions, the laws only apply to their “lessers” (plus, allowing them to be applied would put virtually every career politician at risk of prosecution for the crimes that they’ve committed).
Having actually worked in academia, though, this actually does have a kind of fucked up capitalist answer (and it really isn’t merit) which is most true in public universities more so than Harvard: international students pay more. A lot more, in fact… so much so that my alma mater of UCLA has marketing campaigns in places like China.
As others point out, though, this isn’t zero-sum. More money theoretically means more subsidized US students (and more seats in general). At UCLA, this is especially true since any Californian making less than a certain amount can pretty much get a free ride (and even if not that, highly discounted tuition). I myself being a beneficiary of that, too, btw.
Now, private schools on the other hand, they probably pocket that cash. USC being my most local example, but I bet Harvard does the pay to win shit, too. I think it’s correct to take issue with how they operate, but MAGA is misleading people as they always do in any form of class warfare.
surely, to a capitalist, having people come to the country for 3-4 years, pay loadsamoney and then leave again is the dream?
I mean, it’s actually healthier to an economy to keep the well trained immigrants but you know how racist af people are. These aren’t just professionals, they’re pre-wealthy professionals and often have seed money to lead start-ups, lol
But racism and xenophobia are self destructive.
So their solution should be to make college free for everyone, therefore putting everyone at equal footing, right?
ask them if foreigners buying American products is denying those products to americans
Don’t give them another idiotic justification for the tariff wars.
That’s a bad comparison because it’s generally easier to scale up production lines than it is to increase university capacity.
The most expensive part of product development is the R&D, because that’s where all the university grads go. Manufacturing, on the other hand, can often be automized, and generally only requires basic education. University educators, on the other hand, usually require at least a PhD, and class sizes are limited not only by the number of teaching staff, but also available classrooms, dorm rooms, and, depending on the subject, lab space, all of which is very expensive.
Just an asshole asking asshole questions
Thing is, this isn’t a “gotcha” to them. Their default assumption is “American = more qualified than anyone else” because they’re goddamn ignorant racists.
No one who is not American will ever be qualified in their eyes.
And by American they mean whatever the fuck they want it to mean
God knows if they needed a medical procedure and the most qualified doctor was in France or China or anywhere, they would demand that they should be treated.
I mean to be fair, don’t Universities usually prioritise foreign students because they pay through the nose?
Foreign students pay out of state tuition, out of state fees, they have to have student insurance.
They have to provide proof of financial ability for the sum of THEIR ENTIRE PROGRAM be it 2 or 4 or 6 years etc. (As in, you don’t need to show bank statements showing that you have enough money for the semester, or the year, no, the ENTIRE program)
They can’t apply for financial aide.
They CAN sign up for a payment plan but the end sum is the same.
Most aren’t allowed to work because the program must require work such as labs etc. un order to get permission, and then off campus work is strictly illegal.
And THEN all of that, every step of the process is dependent on office yahoos who may or may not be diligent enough to get your papers processed in time for deadlines.
Foreign students pay more, so they subsidise others, and justify increased numbers of places then available to domestic students.
they dont prioritise, they wont get advanced dates to pick classes, it all goes to undergrads, and vets. they JUST PAY TON more,
I don’t think that’s the assumption. This sounds like someone planted in their head that there’s a shortage of everything and Americans can’t get things because foreigners do. The thing about studying abroad is, that Americans do it in other countries too. It’s an international exchange. If Harvard stopped taking foreign students, they would indeed study in other countries and less Americans could study in those countries as a result, keeping the total number the same.
I grew up in red state poverty, moved to the west coast, and people up here genuinely do not understand what it’s like to live somewhere that sees travel as a bougie thing. I talk about how my parents couldn’t afford to send me with my class on the senior trip to europe, the first question that gets asked is why I couldn’t get a job and save up, not understanding I was childcare and housekeeping for my family while the adults worked. It’s not just coming up with the travel costs, it’s also coming up with the money to hire out replacements for the services I provided for free.
I’m privileged I could test high enough to get into a school that had a senior trip to europe, the public school barely got normal field trips. It’s not hard to understand why the person in OP would assume exchange students have access to a higher quality of life than them, they can clearly already afford to travel.
It’s the defining trait of America, not conservatism, ever since Columbus stepped off the boat and wrote in his journal how the natives people were so kind he could literally seize everything they had.
Why do you think we have two capitalist ruling parties if not for selfish people?
I think it’s a human problem. It’s in our genes. Some of us are supremely selfish and some of those people have no regard for the health and wellbeing of anyone who gets in their way. Just look at our history.
I think it’s a human problem.
Absolutely. I completely agree, and anyone who disagrees hasn’t read a world history book.
Foreig*ner
foreigneR with a hard R
You just need to understand how to talk to them:
We bring the foreigners in, give them a first class AMERICAN education and then send them back into the world. They now are effectively a double-agent, preferring to deal with Americans in business, promote American superiority in the world by telling everyone what a badass they are for getting into Harvard, and have been indoctrinated on American values which they then seed into whatever population they are returning to. This is one of America’s effective long term methods of world domination in action and it would be stupid to halt it.
And then make up some fake examples of it paying off big time.
Republicans: Our values are for Americans only! Those immigrants may prefer to deal with us afterwards, but we prefer to deal with Americans only! The only method for world domination that Americans need is American weapons and American boots on the ground until the only people left alive are Americans only!!!
They don’t understand soft power.
the reason why they accept alot of foreigners, is they are ineligble for scholarships, or in state tuition assistance, they also pay ALOT more in tuition. that is the real reason. besides that because of the money these universities earn, they have one of the best research labs, or companies hiring too.
Hate to be that guy and I’ll accept my fate but ‘a lot’ is two words.
They actually have to give an alot to the university
they forget often that women, people of color, etc at one point were “dei” to someone, too. their family, on coming here, was “dei” to someone else already here.
the nation they want is one where genocide is ok, women are nonpersons, young women are brides, and people of color are slaves to be used for profit.
Hilarious, considering that Harvard didn’t even admit Americans for the first 140 years it existed.
‘Merit’ is perhaps not the defining factor, rather ‘money’. Or have you guys forgotten what ‘Ivy league’ actually means in the confusion.
have you guys forgotten what ‘Ivy league’ actually means
“Planting the ivy” was a customary class day ceremony at many colleges in the 1800s.
The “league” part is related to Athletic events between schools.
What was your point?
The ‘Ivy league’ of universities are elite schools, for the elite.
People making lesser than $200K (even foreigners) don’t pay tuition at Harvard. Just checked and all other Ivy League schools similarly offer need-based aid except two.
If you get in by scholarship, which is not how most people end up in these universities
someone tell this person that something like %90 of US science is done by foreigner scientists and immigrants
Its also as it happens the defining trait of a cluster b disorder.
I search things so others can be lazy.
Cluster B things:
Cluster B disorders are marked by inappropriate, volatile emotionality and often unpredictable behavior. The disorders in Cluster B are antisocial personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, histrionic personality disorder, and narcissistic personality disorder.
A and C are also things.
Narcissism is dead center of cluster b They are always selfish and always play the victim. They only show kindness for recognition and attention. They lack empathy. Its the defining hallmark of maga. The term DARVO exists because of them. Narcs in particular are almost universally against any form of mental health treatment. They fear exposure but more than that they fear their victims will discover what they are. The source of their problems. No narc will seek out mental health treatment.
A list of narcissistic traits
Does this remind you of a certain group in the US?
That 1 to 6 percent is wrong. What is said is 1 in 6 or 16% of the US population. That is also hard to prove due to narcs fear mental health treatment. The actual reported amount is .5% of the population. The statistics for that are interesting though.
Note that the groups in the list above are mostly in a place where a mental health evaluation is pretty much required. The most discovered being in the military where its certain you will get a mental health screening to get a security clearance. That number strongly supports the 1 in 6 statistic with the real number probably being 1 in 5.
Just imagine the world we could have if these people were identified and ignored when it comes to the common concerns we all share. Of course you can bet they would violently oppose this.
I pulled those stats from this site. It matches what I’ve read before. Unless you have been raised by a narc or somehow stayed in a relationship with them its hard to understand how bent they are.
www.therecoveryvillage.com/…/npd-statistics/ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO
Gaxxz angry! Gaxxz isn’t likely to pass the first educational hurdle to get into a top flight university. I possibly wouldn’t either. Taxes however find metric to make him look clever!
I mean, it’s more nationalism. Not all conservatisms have been nationalist, and not all nationalists are conservative.
The Nationalism usually ends when they want cheap labor. Then it's okay for foreigners to come in, unless they advance their status through hard work economically and socially
In that case they wouldn’t be complaining, most of the international students are in grad school aka some of the cheapest labor available lol.
That’s actually pretty unusual in the big picture. I’m guessing you’re North American, maybe European? In East Asia, no such thing ever happened, and historically even in the West immigration and free markets were championed my the liberal parties. Ditto from what I know of other regions.
All nationalism is conservative by definition. Nationalism is based on order and cultural/national idealized traits which are the hallmarks of conservatism.
Nationalism and communism have had pretty heavy overlap over the years, even if it didn’t start that way. If you accept conservative communism as being a thing, sure, I guess you could argue that.
In my many years on this fucking planet, my conclusion is that Conservatives, in many countries, are either selfish, gullible or rich. Juat takes one, but a mix is not rare at all.
I also thing those traits come or are caused by a lack of introspection, self-awareness or empathy. Not sure what is it exactly, but you can smell a conservative from across the street…
“Rich” is just “selfish” with a heaping side of luck.
You’re right, being rich basically means that you are selfish and made it.
I thought the one saving Grace to American Healthcare was that you get treated no matter what as long as you’re willing to go into crippling debt
Also the false notion that if a third party benefits it will always result in a loss for their first party. Better education for everyone can only result in a better world for everyone. And if the issue with foreigners is some of them earned their place unfairly then the problem isn’t nationality but the massive wealth gap billionaires keep on feeding. People should whine less and eat more rich, the healthiest diet out there. 10/10 doctors forced to leave the US would approve.
lmao at the idea of any foreign national coming to the US for a medical procedure they could have performed for free at home.
And this dolt is all “yeah, fuck those guys!”
It might be understandable if you expected all applicants to already be in the USA because then the “correct” percentage would be the percentage proportional to their share of the population, but since several USA universities are in the top schools worldwide then clearly they’re going to accept the most qualified applicants from all over the world. If anything, the fact that only a fourth of the students are foreign and not more is a clear bias from the school admin.
since several USA universities are in the top schools worldwide then clearly they’re going to accept the most qualified applicants from all over the world
Only for teaching and research. The only reason for undergraduates to be foreign is because they pay more.
Oh boy
This is a spicy post…
Well to be fair i do see the pictures nt in saying “harvard exists to serve the people here in usa first”.
But that’s not the argument they are really making.
Nobody tell this guy he’s advocating for DEI, he’ll have a stroke.
I hope he gets what he wished for
Well damn!
Yawweee877h444@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
If a foreigner blocks an American from using a drinking fountain when they’re thirsty, the foreigner should be immediately executed and the fountain should be marked as whites only… oops I mean Americans only.
/s