This is (fortunately) why there’s a maximum size on insects. The environment is less oxygen rich today than in the eras of giant insects in the past. They reach a size where oxygen can’t penetrate deeply enough onto their bodies.
Bees don't have lungs.
Submitted 1 month ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to science_memes@mander.xyz
https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/9ca8df3d-efcf-466f-bd88-cb15dee07542.jpeg
Comments
Reddfugee42@lemmy.world 1 month ago
excral@feddit.org 1 month ago
It’s all based on a very fundamental mathematical law: if you increase the size of something, the volume increases with the third power while the surface area increases with the second power. An insect twice as large would be 8x as heavy and need 8x as much oxygen but 4x as much surface area.
That’s also the reason why insects are as strong as they are. The strength of a muscle scales primarily with the cross section area of it, which again scales with the second power. So if you’d increase the weight of an ant by a factor 10,000,000 (e.g. 5mg to 50kg), the expected strength would increase by 10,000,000^(2/3) ≈ 46,400. If it could lift 10x it’s weight at the original size, it could now only lift about 4.6% of it’s weight
Sauerkraut@discuss.tchncs.de 1 month ago
Reminds me of how the damage to roads scales with the weight of the vehicle to the 4th power, so someone driving a 6000lb pickup does 16x more damage to roads than a 3000lb sedan
Reddfugee42@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Square Cube Law
Anomalocaris@lemm.ee 1 month ago
maybe once I have money for hobbies, but I really want to make oxygen rich terrariums, and selectively breed tarantulas to see if I can make them larger.
BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world 1 month ago
This is giving Island of Dr. Moreau
WinterBear@lemmy.world 1 month ago
As long as you leave the centipedes out of it
kandoh@reddthat.com 1 month ago
And a separate tank for Scorpions to fight them, we’ll make a killing
Gladaed@feddit.org 1 month ago
On lungless insects. If they develop to be larger they will get lungs!
Enceladus_One@lemm.ee 1 month ago
Yeah giant insects would be utterly terrifying (and deadly).
count_dongulus@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Beekeepers intentionally use smoke to make bees docile during collection time, transfers, etc
milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 1 month ago
However, what I’ve heard from a beekeeper is that the smoke triggers a flight response in them (from fire) so they consume honey ready to flee, and that’s actual what makes them docile/drowsy.
faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 1 month ago
You’re telling me the bees get the munchies when they smoke…
EvacuateSoul@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Pretty shitty instinct if it means they end up sleeping instead of fleeing.
Atomic@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Insects don’t have lungs. It also means their potential size is directly limited by the oxygen content in the air.
Which is why we don’t see cat sized insects roaming around.
vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Which is why you don’t see cat sized insects roaming around, I live next to a tarantula trail and some of them fuckers get BIG.
samus12345@lemm.ee 1 month ago
Spiders aren’t insects. Though like them, they don’t have lungs!
Anomalocaris@lemm.ee 1 month ago
tarantulas do indeed have lungs though
WrenFeathers@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Wait… tarantula trails are a thing?
Atomic@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
Arachnids are not insects though.
dariusj18@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Related is this awesome video discussing dinosaur breathing
TomasEkeli@programming.dev 1 month ago
that was great! thanks!
hperrin@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Hold on, wait a minute, pause. There are people who think that bugs have lungs?
Remember_the_tooth@lemmy.world 1 month ago
To be fair, while bugs and other insects don’t have lungs, some arthropods do. The differences among arthropods, insects and bugs aren’t exactly common knowledge.
TomasEkeli@programming.dev 1 month ago
some have book-lungs not true lungs. Only us fish have “true” lungs
T156@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Usually not lungs as they exist in mammals, though.
Maalus@lemmy.world 1 month ago
It’s funny that this is biology in 4th grade and half the people here are shocked
frostysauce@lemmy.world 1 month ago
I didn’t think bees had lungs. I also didn’t think bees didn’t have lungs…
SuperSaiyanSwag@lemmy.zip 1 month ago
I’m less bothered by that person not knowing and way more bothered by them just being so confidently incorrect. Doesn’t take long to just look it up yourself. Unless the whole post was an educational setup?
LordOfLocksley@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Huh, the Greek hero Spiracles saved the bees
milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 1 month ago
TIL
faythofdragons@slrpnk.net 1 month ago
Obviously, the Greek hero Spiracles also rhymes with the bees
Alpha71@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Hunh. TIL.
AppleTea@lemmy.zip 1 month ago
Not just bees, it’s true of all insects.
Consequently, the amount of oxygen in the air determines how big bugs can grow. Get too big, and the oxygen can’t diffuse into the body fast enough. This even shows up in the fossil records, with larger bugs being found alongside evidence of eras that had more oxygen in the atmosphere.
Tlaloc_Temporal@lemmy.ca 1 month ago
They aren’t insects, but most arachnids have book lungs, which are basically a pocket full of air gills.
Korhaka@sopuli.xyz 1 month ago
How much was the oxygen and where has it gone since then?
woodenghost@hexbear.net 1 month ago
It’s what limits their size. If insects had lungs, they could get larger. 300 million years ago, when the oxygen content in the atmosphere was temporarily higher, there were huge dragonflies with 75 cm wingspan (2.5 ft).
manny_stillwagon@mander.xyz 1 month ago
In the original Jurassic Park novel by Michael Crichton, one of the animals they’ve cloned are these giant dragonflies. Its only one line in the book (Tim, one if the kids, sees one fly by and recalls reading about them) but it caught my attention as just straight impossible. I remember thinking, “Unless you’re somehow controlling the oxygen level of the air around this entire island, there’s no way that bug can’t breathe.”
MyNameIsIgglePiggle@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Well that’s a Christmas spiracle
ADTJ@feddit.uk 1 month ago
Just laughed aloud in a café, thanks for that
match@pawb.social 1 month ago
they don’t have circulatory systems either they’ve basically just pushing things through themselves and tryna make it work
Remember_the_tooth@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Pedant here. They absolutely do have circulatory systems. They have what’s known as an open circulatory system, whereas we have a closed circulatory system.
NoOutlinesBand@lemmy.world 1 month ago
“I’ve been trying to quit smoking. I want to take better care of my spiracles”
Wilco@lemm.ee 1 month ago
Wait until this person hears about fish.
pyre@lemmy.world 1 month ago
don’t beekeepers use smoke or some such?
Leeks@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Yup. It simulates a forest fire and encourages them to gorge themselves on honey and leave the hive. They get less protective of the hive (because they think it is doomed) which makes it easier to work. They will check back in under an hour to see if the hive made it, and if so, will regurgitate the honey back and continue on with their day.
kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 month ago
This sounds strange. You really don’t want to make them abandon the hive. You want to disrupt the hive as little as possible.
bane_killgrind@slrpnk.net 1 month ago
They stay in the hive if it’s not hot iirc
tpyoman@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Yea tobacco smoke I think but want to say they were being stopped for that n9t sure.
kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 month ago
I don’t believe they’d use tobacco, as nicotine is especially toxic to insects (and has a long history of being used as an insecticide).
Beekeepers burn paper, woodchips, or really anything that burns well that they have on hand (that isn’t toxic). Source: Have used smoker while handling beehives.
BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
Like most others I have not read the article. But someone please answer me this:
If the bees fell asleep, then why didn’t the fire kill them? I can accept that insects don’t have lungs, I mean some people are doing well without hearts… but am I supposed to accept that bees are also immune to fire damage?
Plaidboy@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
The bees were on a different lower down roof from the main roof (which is the one that burned). The article notes that bee wax melts at 70C and they didn’t see any of that under the hives, so they know temperatures stayed below that. So the bees were likely only exposed to some smoke and maybe some slightly elevated temperatures.
Abird1620@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
Put simply smoke doesn’t have to be hot. Smoke is just sunburnt fuel caused my a process called off gassing (solid turning to a gas).
An example of cooled down smoke is a fire that starts in a well sealed room. It burns through as much fuel as possible, and while the solids are hot they turn into gas, however, due to a lack of oxygen, you don’t necessarily see combustion. So then the fire snuffs itself out and what you are left with is a cooling smoke.
So let’s say that the fire is on an upper floor. Heat goes up, cold goes down. So as smoke travels through a building it cools, and may eventually sink towards the ground or a lower level (this can be especially possible in a building as large as a cathedral) smoke sinks and interacts with bees at a “manageable temperature”.
Tldr: smoke isn’t always hot. The bees are happy.
Jimmycrackcrack@lemmy.ml 1 month ago
Why doesn’t the damaging and hot particulate matter in smoke do any harm to or otherwise clog up their spiracles like it does to the inner lining of lungs? I gather lungs are wet and also very delicate, but if they’re directly oxygenating their organs through these spiracles eventually it must get to somewhere wet and delicate for the smoke to get in and potentially harm.
ulterno@programming.dev 1 month ago
Maybe something like:
- The spiracles stop working and the insect stops most major movements
- When the air becomes better, the new air fills the spiracles and reinvigorates the insect
vs
- Humans need to use their muscles to start breathing, or they will require external assistance
Umbrias@beehaw.org 1 month ago
am i the only one who notices that this logic makes no sense? it doesnt matter that they have no lungs, they still are susceptible to both heat and airborn toxins, they perform gas exchange. They lived because the heat and smoke were below toxic levels for them.
Anomalocaris@lemm.ee 1 month ago
this is true,
but the main takeaway is that some people learned that not all animals have or need lungs.
as a kid I assumed insect anatomy was like human but insect shaped, learning how alien they are for the first time is a fascinating experience I wish I could relive.
Umbrias@beehaw.org 1 month ago
they are indeed very alien it’s true. And i suppose, i just dont really want people thinking bees are immune to smoke or other airborne toxin.
Another fun fact is that bee flight muscles are directly saturated with oxygen and have a power density comparable to helicopters. The whole bee in flight is comparable to a car. Crazy creatures.
Spacehooks@reddthat.com 1 month ago
I remember the first time I heard bugs dont have lungs. Like wtf? Just no internal ventilation pumping air as needed. Seems wierd but also thx God. They are annoying enough.
antonim@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 month ago
They also have no blood or blood vessels, just a little heart and blood-like stuff splashing around.
JamesBoeing737MAX@sopuli.xyz 1 month ago
They breathe their own farts. Well.
happybadger@hexbear.net 1 month ago
We should all aspire to be more like bees.
psx_crab@lemmy.zip 1 month ago
“fall asleep” sounds like a nice way to say ded
unexposedhazard@discuss.tchncs.de 1 month ago
If they “survived the fire” then they probably dont die from oxygen depravation or at least not quickly.
Remember_the_tooth@lemmy.world 1 month ago
To bee, or not to bee, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The stings and sparrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep
No more; and by a sleep, to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks
That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep,
To sleep, perchance to Dream; aye, there’s the buzz,
For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come,
When we have fluttered off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause.
pruwybn@discuss.tchncs.de 1 month ago
But that’s illegal!
AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 1 month ago
Next they’re going to tell me that bees don’t have hearts
Nangijala@feddit.dk 1 month ago
Next you’re gonna tell me that plants don’t have a neocortex!?
SanndyTheManndy@lemmy.world 1 month ago
insects are also all upside-down
Gullible@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
So if I understand you correctly, if I remove my lungs, I’m a bee? My aunt had lung cancer, so they’ll probably kill me, anyway. I’ll report back on the results.
tahoe@lemmy.world 1 month ago
No because you’re likely too big (no offense) :(
I think insects have little holes all over their bodies, in which air gets inside by itself through some physics shenanigans. It doesn’t need to be actively sucked in like with lungs, it just happens because they’re so small.
This method doesn’t scale up though since if you’re bigger, you need more air, and having little holes all over your body won’t cut it. Thats when you know you need lungs, and that’s why you don’t see insects the size of a dog these days (thankfully).
There used to be times in the Earth’s history (Carboniferous) where the air’s composition was different though, and since it had more oxygen in it, insects could grow a lot larger.
Metz@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Fun fact: Cutaneous respiration (aka “Skin breathing”) is something we humans do too. But it accounts only for 1% to 2% of our oxygen input.
However, the cornea of our eyes doesn’t have its own blood vessels to supply it. Therefore, it relies on direct gas exchange with the environment—in other words, skin respiration.
Our eyes breath like bees.
Remember_the_tooth@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Adding to this, the holes (spiracles) connect to the tracheae, which connect to air sacs. While respiration is almost entirely passive in smaller species, larger species actually force air through the system to aid the otherwise passive process.
…m.wikipedia.org/…/Respiratory_system_of_insects
Side note: Spiders have book lungs. They’re not insects, but like insects, they are arthropods.
wisely@feddit.org 1 month ago
So theoretically if we terraformed the Earth we would be free to genetically engineer humans to survive without lungs?
joelfromaus@aussie.zone 1 month ago
It’s been a long time since I’ve seen it but the movie Mimic had bugs that had grown to the size of a human and taken on a vaguely human form in order to hunt us.
The movie used the reasoning that the bugs had developed basic lungs which enabled them to grow past the limits of their usual breathing apparatus.
No point to make here, I just remember it being cool that they put a small amount of thought into why the bugs could grow to human proportions.
Remember_the_tooth@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Yeah, and if you pluck a chicken, it will be a human, because it’s featherless and stands on two legs.
hperrin@lemmy.world 1 month ago
But what came first, the human or the egg?
milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee 1 month ago
Nah-ah, that makes it a dinosaur!
GreatRam@lemmy.world 1 month ago
Diogenes my goat
trxxruraxvr@lemmy.world 1 month ago
That is almost how it works, but to really become a bee you’ll have to turn the lungs into wings. Good luck. I’m looking forward to seeing the result.
Remember_the_tooth@lemmy.world 1 month ago
[Lung flapping sounds]
BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 1 month ago
WHAT! MY MOTHER WAS A SAINT!
FauxLiving@lemmy.world 1 month ago