Submitted 4 months ago by Don_Dickle@lemmy.world to [deleted]
Nazis do this dumb thing where they go “hey that small and therefore relatively defenseless group (badassness of individuals aside) is the cause of all our problems, let’s kill them to solve everything!”
Surprisingly, it never works.
So they do it again with somebody else, and somebody else, and somebody else, until everybody on earth is killed by nazis or somebody stops them.
As for why anybody is dumb enough to fall for it in the first place…it’s anybody’s guess.
Surprisingly, it never works.
The Holocaust happened and Trump got elected. If those two things don’t count as examples of this hateful strategy working then idk what does.
I think they meant it doesn’t solve any problems because they never were the problem.
This video explains it better than me, but mostly a combination of religion being against trans people and bad science.
“Religion” is too broad a term. Conservatives like to call what they practice Christianity, although it would have appalled Christ. They also like to represent themselves as the mainstream of Christianity, but they are very much in the minority. They just get on the news more often.
You need an enemy who can't fight back... So it's never: The white male millionaires are coming for us [...]
Sorted by controversial, wish me luck boys!
He ded
Ok, am conservative.
I’m going to give my thoughts.
So I’m fine with most things between consenting adults. The problem is when there isn’t consent and in a larger group, a lack of consensus.
Kids can’t consent, and despite claims to the contrary, there’s been a couple of trans kids. The issue I see is the amount of push back on passing laws against trans kids. Why on earth do y’all care so much about banning something that isnt happening?
I’m not into sports, but I can see how unfair it is when a bio man fights a bio woman. Even if they’re taking mtf hormones, there’s still a ton of testorone. Just from a safety aspect, they shouldn’t allow bio men in women’s boxing or MMA or anything like that. Chess and stuff of that nature doesn’t really care about the sex that much. And there’s been more a couple of sports women who are against it too. There’s a lack of consensus.
As an aside, we were making a ton of progress against gender roles, and now here we are reinforcing them. Can’t even wear drag now without being called trans. It’s annoying.
Why are you guys so obsessed with labels? Let dudes wear dresses and women wear whatever. You don’t need a label for it.
Even if they’re taking mtf hormones, there’s still a ton of testorone.
This is factually wrong. Trans women on HRT statistically have far less testosterone than cis women, purely for the reason that it is a hormone all humans create but we are actively suppressing it.
Ok, tentatively, that’s a small sample size, but if it scales up, transwomen still have higher absolute handgrip strength, lower forced expiratory volume in 1 s:forced vital capacity ratio and lower relative V̇O2max. They still went through male puberty and are reaping the benefits.
Trigger warning: this is a very graphic response. In a bad frame of mind? Emotionally upset easily? Just don’t read it.
The thing that conservatives don’t understand is that if someone is clearly trans at 14 and they start taking puberty blockers and estrogen, they sometimes wind up looking like Kim Petras. Kim Petras sort of looks slightly trans, but mostly, she just looks like a hot chick. She will not have the same easy life a naturally born hot chick would, but it’s going to be much much easier because of what happened when she was an early teenager.
Now let’s say you wait until 18, because kids shouldn’t be pushed into things. Now you have adams apples, larger brow ridges, and worst of all, there are different midface ratios you can’t really correct even with surgery. At a certain point, even will all the estrogen and feminizing surgeries in the world, you will still look like a dude taking estrogen wearing makeup. A person in this situation will have a much harder life. The respectable and admirable Kaitlen Jenner is an example of someone who had tons of money and even then, the facial feminization with all the money in the world can’t change certain ratios when someone transitions at a certain age.
Neither person “passes.” Kim Petras from certain angles occasionally looks Trans. But if she wore conservative makeup and a conservative outfit, she could go somewhere and do something without getting mean dirty looks.
Do you know what it’s like to get mean stares and glares all the time? If you are conservative, you don’t. Any mean look inherently makes a person with any normal limbic system feel bad. Do you know how many dirty looks conservatives gives to different looking people every single day? All these conservatives talk about Bible this and Jesus that and protecting children this and that. A lot of children who feel trans blow their brains out, hang themselves, or jump of tall things once they are adults because they didn’t get puberty blockers and estrogen before their face looked manly and it would require hundreds of thousands of dollars of plastic surgery to correct and the dirty looks and meanness wear them down and eventually, they are just done.
This is not about protecting children, it’s about protecting conservative religious beliefs.
The conservative fear that some woke snowflake mom is going to push her confused depressed kid into chopping of his genitals and pretending to be a woman doesn’t line up with reality and it’s a flawed argument. Being trans is a hard and miserable road and no parent or kid wants it, it’s something that happens, like cancer, that people deal with, but at least with cancer, you get sympathy from everyone, instead of your family disowning you if you are conservative.
I understand the “moderate” perspective on this, but you are totally wrong.
Except for the part about sports. Transgendered people just shouldn’t be able to compete in sports or should have their own league. And liberals arguing otherwise detracts credibility from the much more important issue, which is trans kids should be able to get medical care before they get huge adams apples and brow ridges and longer midfaces and sharper cheekbones and wind up much more likely to commit suicide.
The more important part of the equation is being able to use puberty blockers and take estrogen prior to developing even more manly characteristics. Genital surgery could be done as an adult, but that’s not actually what conservatives want, they want no medication intervention before 18.
If there are concerns about making young teens who are confused infertile, then conservative religitards can subsidize these people freezing their eggs or sperm, but the reality is not that many people change their minds on this. For every random YouTube special filmed by a hardcore catholic showing a schizophrenic female who regrets lopping off her breasts, you have thousands of women who are now trans men who are less likely to die, but the Catholic documentary filmmakers don’t add that in, do they?
Conservatives often point to the horrors of the surgeries. They are horrific. Sometimes if someone reverses their penis and scrotum, hair can grow on the inside of their constructed “vagina” and the whole thing is horrific. But the math is evident: the trans people who do these surgeries are less likely to blow their heads off.
People act like this is an ivory tower debate, but really it’s often there are 2 outcomes: outcome 1 is that Billy with a large browridge, adam’s apple, and manly cheeks, who doesn’t have 150,000 for facial feminization surgery, lays down in front of train tracks at 19 and splat, OR Billy takes puberty blockers and estrogen at 13, becomes Billie, and ends up marrying a mathmatician who doesn’t want to have children for some reason and they live happily ever after despite being an unusual couple.
The fake empathy and outrage Christians have neglects to look at the statistics and the actual outcomes and relies on the availability heuristic/bias to make assumptions. It’s all fine and well to do such ivory tower debates, unless you’re the transgender teen who ends up dead because of it.
They’re conservative. The whole name is based on the principle that they want to maintain the old way rather than progress. I think it stems from fear of a changing world. The old world with the old rules provided safety, it was understandable, the rules were clear, and the rules didn’t hurt them. Now some people are “attacking” their world, their rules, everything that offers them safety and understanding. So they feel attacked.
It’s the same thing, but with another subject every time. Whether it is women getting rights, which threatens their safe world with clear gender roles. Or gay people, who threaten the simple rules like “boys love girls”, “in order to be successful, get a job, marry, and get kids”. Or non-white people getting rights. What if they vote for things that “we” don’t want? What if “they” ruin the world that “we” got so used to.
Trans and especially non-binary people are just the next group in like that threatens their simple world. When men are people born as men and women are people born as women, it’s way easier to force people into the traditional roles. The old rules still work, “boy marries girl, gets kids”. And when they speak out about their "concerns* they are (rightfully) called out for it. So they become defensive and start doing whatever they’re doing now.
I don’t think it’s quite that simple. I’m a dad to a FtM trans teenager and I was born in the early 80s. There’s a lot of “inertia” to the worldview presented as “normal” in education, media, and society at large just in my lifetime.
I think the first time I learned that homosexuality was a thing was from Ellen. I know now that everyone isn’t hetero but every relationship I saw around me, in books, in movies for my the most formative years of my life defined it as “normal” in my brain.
All I knew outside of “gender norms” was Bugs Bunny in drag, Bosom Buddies, Some Like it Hot, Rocky Horror. It was “not normal”, a joke.
I come from a liberal family with a liberal upbringing. I’ve considered myself an LGBT ally for a long time, but I still have a lot of implicit biases in my head.
When my child came out as trans, those implicit biases were the first things into my head. I love my son for who he is, want him to be happy, and fully support him. When he decided to dress fem for the first time after hatching my implicit biases were confused. But it doesn’t matter what those biases say because I consciously support what makes him happy.
My parents were born in the 50s. They are both unabashed feminists but they had another 30 years of that “inertia” to overcome when my son hatched. They still occasionally forget the right pronouns. His one remaining great grandmother has almost 20 years more inertia to overcome and still uses the wrong name occasionally.
I guess what I’m saying is that I agree with you to an extent. These things threaten their “inertia” and it’s hard to question yourself like that. It’s easier to dig your heels in and fight back.
I think we agree yeah. More progressive people will be more open to challenge their “inertia” with new ideas that they believe are right. I think more conservative people give in more to the feeling of these “new” ideas being “wrong”. That doesn’t mean that more progressive people don’t feel those same feelings. I’m in my early 30s and I notice that I do start to struggle more with the difference between what I was taught (and thus what I subconsciously sometimes feel) and how I perceive the world now from a logical perspective. I strongly support people being trans or non-binary because I feel like it makes the world a better place, but deep inside there’s still some part that feels like it’s wrong for people to deviate from the gender rules I’ve been fed from birth.
Because of tropes like tvtropes.org/pmwiki/…/CreepyCrossdresser from movies like Silence of the Lambs, Dressed to Kill, and Psycho. It puts the idea of men dressing like women as a means of tricking women to attack them into the collective unconscious.
Because Trump spent $19 million on transphobic ads during football games in battleground states. Because they need a Boogeyman to rile up their base.
It doesn’t have to make sense. You might as well be asking how can the KKK hate people of color or how can Nazis hate Jewish people.
They have to have somebody to hate so they don’t hate themselves so much.
They’re a convenient political target because it makes insecure men not want to be associated with them. Believe it or not, a similar thing happened last time Republicans won the popular vote in 2004 - back then the issue was gay marriage. Bush went hard on opposing that and it helped him win.
Not that it really matters as a legitimate cause to dislike trans people, but the 2023 Nashville shooting at a school was done by a trans person.
I support trans people to do whatever they want but unfortunately one did shoot up a school …wikipedia.org/…/2023_Nashville_school_shooting
With trans people making up 0.5-1.6% of the US population, wouldn’t it be strange if not a single school shooter was trans?
That question lead me down a rabbit hole: There have been 417 school shootings since Columbine in 1999 washingtonpost.com/…/school-shootings-database/
I don’t have statistics on the number of school shootings perpetrated by multiple people. But I suspect that it’s a miniscule number. So I’m going to go with 417 individuals carrying out acts counted as school shootings. And not to try to be John Oliver or something, but what counts as a school shooting may be as little as this numbnuts who shot them self in the leg in a high school parking lot wptv.com/…/lockdown-lifted-at-glades-central-high….
0.5% of 417 is 2.1 and 1.6% is 6.7.
Meaning that somewhere between 2 and 7 trans school shooters would indicate that trans people are just as likely as cis people to carry out school shootings. That only a single shooter has been trans, may not be statistically significant, as we’re dealing with integers and it’s pretty darn close.
So I’m left to conclude that being trans isn’t significant in being a school shooter. Trans people may just be as fucked up as the rest of us.
What I’m more interested in is how the trans man in Nashville in 2023 would have counted, if this statistic didn’t only cover until 2022 statista.com/…/active-shooters-us-schools-by-gend…
The statistics don’t track. Although i agree with your overarching point, the percentage of trans people in the US between 1999 and now would’ve been on an upward trajectory, so your calculations would have to account for that
Conservatives use fear to manipulate their constituents as their primary means to rally support. A minority scapegoat many of their supporters don’t know in person, like trans people, are easily demonized by politicians and clergy to pretend trans folks are pedophiles and sex assaulters projecting their own party and priest crimes, it’s the same thing they try to do with fear mongering homosexuals as a previous scapegoat to distract and deflect from their awful policy privileging the wealth class and harming poor and middle class people, they need someone to blame for their own awful behavior and choices.
I’ll try actually answer the question and get hated for it I’m sure rather than circle jerking something to the top. But I think it goes like this.
Imagine you had a ball and a cube. Then everyone agrees the ball is a ball and a cube is a cube. Been like this as long as anyone remembers.
Then suddenly someone comes around and says one of those cubes is special and is actually a ball. Then everyone agrees that person is mental. Years go by and more people start saying that some cubes are balls and you feel like you are losing you mind. You know what a ball is, everyone knows what a ball is! How can anyone say a cube is a ball. People attack you for it. People say you are wrong that you are hateful, horrible but you know! Surely everyone knows this is a joke.
They started painting cubes to look like balls and everyone acts like they are balls. But you know they aren’t balls.
You are happy to group them on different measures. Sure some balls and some cubes are red, some are yellow. Both balls and cubes can be spiky, sure balls are more often spiky but there is nothing wrong with a spiky cube. Each to there own. Most cubes are smooth but some balls are smooth. That’s fine.
There are a million and one ways to group these shapes. But at the end of the day a cube is a cube and a ball is a ball. Anything else is madness and you’re not standing for it. You can group them however you want, choose whatever is the most important, fine is doesn’t matter. But don’t say something that is obviously a cube is a ball and what is obviously a ball a cube. You can’t change the definition of a cube to be what that shapes feels it is, that’s meaningless. It defeats the purpose of the word. Sure make a new word but don’t use that word.
In regards to the question at hand how so that a shit analogy?
But at the end of the day a cube is a cube and a ball is a ball. Anything else is madness and you’re not standing for it.
This is the crux of where you are wrong. There’s more than just cubes and balls, but because of society, stigma and restrictive laws in some countries, everyone has to try and fit themselves into a cube or a ball, even though they might be egg shaped.
genders are not defined by shape of the human but by biology
It seems that way because the minority of people who are against trans people are very loud and obnoxious, and their voices are heavily amplified by sites like Facebook and Twitter.
I don’t think it’s most people. I (choose to) believe that’s a loud minority.
Most of the culture wars bullshit is originating from a tiny but disproportionately noisy number of people.
But then, because their claims are so outrageous, the media picks up onbit and runs with it, without bothering to be proportional to the number of people causing the problem in the format place.
There are a lot of factors at play that make transness an easy target to be the scary other bigots rally around.
The simple truth is that unless you yourself are trans you cannot understand the trans experience. There is no way to explain the scope or impact it has on someone’s life. It’s automatically alien and provides essentially a permanent out group. Anyone who is uncomfortable with people who are different or that have different experiences than themselves are almost certainly transphobic to some degree. Right now to the best of my knowledge transphobia is the only thing all hate groups share.
Trans people are the current scapegoats because prior to the pandemic we had an explosion of trans people feeling safe enough to come out online (I blame Obama making us all feel safe). They are particularly effective because both white nationalists and evangelicals use queerness as a scapegoat all the time anyway so it was easy for them to rally around. Which is why conservative politicians fearmonger around trans people.
It’s not that simple, but it’s close enough for a lemmy comment.
I’m a queer gender non conforming lesbian who grew up in the 90s and was horrifically violently assaulted for it on the regular by bullies that school authorities never gave a shit about.
I remember the Obama years. I remember back then not trusting the “acceptance”. I never thought it was genuine and to this day I still don’t. I feel bad for those who thought we made real progress. It was always an illusion.
I was severely bullied for just existing on this planet.
In a less direct way one standing theory is that it’s tied to cultural issues with gender relations and due to the lack of a cultural role for us (at least in cultures where that applies or where those roles were damaged during colonialism, which was very common). Then there’s also the oversexualization of trans people.
For the first one Julia Serrano does a good job going into a lot of detail for a big chunk of it, but the quick summary is that there’s two axes of sexism: traditional (one sex and that which is associated is better than the other, traditionally prioritizing the masculine over the feminine) and oppositional (that that which is associated is deeply connected and immutable). All sorts of people run up against oppositional sexism, from cis gay people to dudes who like to sew. But it’s likely necessary to reinforce traditional sexism.
Then there’s the lack of cultural space. It’s being built, but it isn’t done yet and until it’s been uncontroversial for some time it’ll be at risk. It’s the issues of “I don’t know how to treat them” and “it’s against god”. It’s people angry that their understanding of one of the most vital parts of their culture is being called to make space for something that’s new to them
Then there’s the oversexualization. Trans people all throughout the world have a long history of resorting to sex work to survive. That means that to many people our existence is seen as inherently sexual. I grew up where trans people only appeared on tv as tragic sex workers, jokes of erotic disgust, or Springer style freak shows, and the next closest depictions were as murderous erotic crossdressers (which many saw as the same thing). And so now here I am, one of them, demanding you treat me as an educated professional and a peer and a decent chunk of bigots will see my face as inherently pornographic and therefore unfit to display around children. They hear about teenagers wanting to transition and think of it as sexualizing them. And for a certain portion of people they’re mad that a porn category and type of exotic hooker is demanding rights
There’s more, and I didn’t say it all the best I could (typed it out off and on over a while between doing things as well as it being something I mostly break down in discussions with other trans people). But yeah, we’re different and we challenge basic understandings of some of the foundations of society and culture, but our liberation helps break down the issues you’re already facing and a lot of the time the requests we’re making make life easier for cis people once y’all get used to us being around.
I see a lot of mostly correct answers here, but as a trans person myself I can’t help but feel they are all missing the core concept.
People hate trans folk for the same reason “get back in the kitchen” is still said to women in any non-“traditional” role or the “angry black man/woman” is said about anyone advocating for their own rights. There are strict gender and racial roles that are enforced by our society so rigidly, that many have assumed them to be naturally correct laws of the universe. Anyone existing outside of those roles is seen as either mental illness to be corrected or malicious evil-doers wanting to cause trouble. When in fact the reality is much simpler, that being human is a more diverse expressive and dynamic experience than those holding on to those “natural laws” would like to admit. Conservatives are more prone to this, but liberals are absolutely not immune. To exist outside the role you were “assigned” is a threat to society that assings the roles, ergo a threat to the very way of life for those who see them as innate truths.
some schmucks want to exploit the very basic fear of the unfamiliar, and they pointed it at trans folk to get votes or whatever.
Because conservatives are mostly dumb, and dumb people don’t understand things and won’t make an effort to understand things, and people fear what they don’t understand. Very simple A-to-C.
I can only recall one instance of a trans person going postal. …wikipedia.org/…/2023_Nashville_school_shooting
Even trans people aren’t beating the “nearly all mass shooters are men” statistic.
He must have been bullied terribly.
The interesting thing about the furor over trans people existing is that 90% of any harm, real or imagined, stems from mistreatment of people. Conservatives treat trans people badly (supposedly) due to mental issues that are caused by the way conservatives treat trans people.
politifact.com/…/no-evidence-growing-trend-trans-…
Goose meme: One out of how many total?
Remember how the police/Alex Jones kept making big talk about a “manifesto” which never manifested?
It seems like it’s always projection with these fascists.
They are the ones whose “party” is full of violent sexual predators. They will never bring up the monsters (including their “president”) on their own “team”.
I’m going to be an apologist for conservatives for a sec, just for the sake of giving out my theory of mind of these people.
This is a bit anecdotal, but I think this all happens mostly due to the stress trans people are inadvertently causing their parents. If you’re a sensible, smart and handsome person like I truly fucking am, you can process it in a few years and come out as not being a 100% asshole towards the issue.
But if your reference group is republican church goers, there’s a high probability that such a person just simply does not have the mental toolset to process it in any sensible way.
Yeah my mom talked to me about her mixed feelings when I came out. On one hand she saw I was no longer miserable and was extremely happy about that, but on the other hand she was terrified. I lucked out, she’d gotten involved as an ally to the trans community before I came out to her (and I believe she was actually surprised when I did), but yeah she was very scared for me.
Funny enough one of my first thoughts after realizing I was trans was “fuck my life isn’t going to be easy”, so at least the concern for my safety was something we shared lol
If my kid was trans, the only stress it would cause is thinking about how much medical bills we might have.
But I don’t have expectations for my kids that I’m imposing on them, so maybe I have less to process.
I think this all happens mostly due to the stress trans people are inadvertently causing their parents. When your kid comes out of the closet, this will happen to a parent regardless of how liberal-minded they are. Even if you have no problem with the concept, your kid being trans brings about new kinds of threat scenarios you never had to think about before. If you’re a sensible, smart and handsome person like I truly fucking am, you can process it in a few years and come out as not being a 100% asshole towards the issue.
I feel like it’s more the opposite problem. For the parents, trans people are a vague boogeyman. They’ve never meant a trans person personally, and they’re constantly told that trans people are just waiting to jump them in the bathroom, or at sports, or all sorts of other things, so they’ve never had to contend with someone they know being trans.
If it was simply stress or threat to the kid, it wouldn’t really explain the reaction to disowning them, since most of those aren’t about the treatment that their kids would receive for being trans,.
I think you’re close to the root of it. The need for a biological legacy is strong no matter any affiliations. Having “non-conforming” children threatens that legacy.
For the groups that inflate this drive, that’s all there is. That’s the only purpose. No “we as a species”.
For the rest of us it might be a little disappointing at the prospect of no grandchildren. But we know that it’s ultimately not our decision. And the same outcome could happen regardless of any “conformity”.
Yeah, I did certainly want to be able to do something that would’ve made my child not trans, but I couldn’t figure any way to do that. Some of the more delusional churchgoers think they can because they think they have a wizard on their side.
Since when do conservatives care about mass shootings?
Prove it
It’s on OP to prove. But reasonably most people aren’t transphobic considering how big of s topic, if you will, transsexualism had become lately. I don’t think most conservatives are transphobic either.
Kind regards, someone who would be very liberal in the US.
FYI
nbcnews.com/…/nashville-christian-school-shooter-…
They’re people, just like the rest of us. Some are great, some are not.
yeah, was going to say - there have been trans mass shooters, lol
Another notable case:
en.wikipedia.org/…/Colorado_Springs_nightclub_sho…
Aldrich’s attorneys have said in court documents that their client identifies as non-binary and uses they/them pronouns, preferring to be addressed as Mx. Aldrich. Neighbors allege Aldrich to have made hateful comments towards the LGBT community in the past, including frequent usage of homophobic slurs. Aldrich never mentioned being non-binary prior to the shooting and was referred to with masculine pronouns by family members. Police testified they found rainbow-colored shooting targets in Aldrich’s home. Experts in online extremism have voiced the possibility that Aldrich’s proclaimed self-identification could be disingenuous, while the Center for Countering Digital Hate acknowledges the suspect’s past actions and impact on the LGBT community.
I am personally inclined to agree that the self-identification is likely disingenuous, a stunt for the courtroom.
Fear, control, indoctrination, tribalism, double standards, poor mortal character, hypocrisy, and because it ‘makes them feel icky’ and so they have to be loud and obvious about it so that they’re community sides with them and doesn’t suspect that they’re (allegedly) total closet cases.
Because the science ia highly debated and we are yet to come to a real consensus on the issue. From what ive seen most people really dont gives a fuck about being anti trans they give a fuck about trans intervention with children.
It’s who their owners say to hate, so they hate them. Could be anyone and for no or any reason. They’re cultists and they do, say, hate, and fear who they’re told to.
Conservatives are afraid of change, because they control current status quo. They can’t let people escape from that control, so every nail that is a little outside it’s hole gets hammered.
In short, they rather prefer trans (and broadly queers) to hide or die, unless they can control them. Everyone different from what they can control is a big danger. Imagine if everyone could be like they feel like? Conservatives see this as chaos, they are the guardians of peace and good values, so anything not already controlled by them is the opposite, chaos, destruction, fire.
That’s why they rarely present anything new, their policies and general opinion tend to fight the natural evolution of civilization. USA, as obviously all of the American Continent, was built by immigrants (and slaves). Now they fight immigrants, undocumented ones mostly, because they can’t control them. And we know what happened when ‘the libs’ back then tried to end slavery, you know, other people that they CONTROLLED.
Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.
A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 4 months ago
Because hateful people always need an other. an outsider. Someone to feel fearful of, yet superior too.
It used to be black people.
then it was the irish and the itallians.
then it was hispanics.
then it was gays
and now its trans people.
VerticaGG@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 months ago
Oh honey it never stopped being black people.
Most on that list are still targets. A world without trans people cannot exist, and noone’s happy to be a canary in the coal mine…better believe anyone on that list is watching their own rights be stripped away when trans people’s rights are. (General Bodily Autonomy not the least among them)
A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 3 months ago
never said it didnt, but the narrative does shift with time towards new boogiemen