All jokes aside, things like this are why China is beating us. I am absolutely not a fan of the Chinese government, but the simple fact is they get shit done.
Public transit in Chengdu, China versus Toronto, Canada
Submitted 5 weeks ago by Davriellelouna@lemmy.world to mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/12d19482-cc60-4000-bfb8-e813b6a5c9b6.jpeg
Comments
SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 5 weeks ago
rustydomino@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
It helps that in China you can’t own land. All the land is owned by the government. You only have “use rights” and for a limited time (something like 80 years - I forget the exact number). So when it comes time to build infrastructure the government just tells you to gtfo.
rustydomino@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Look to public transit development in Taiwan as an example of how to do it right in a democratic nation. There are still loads of problems but the Taiwanese government can’t just take your land outright. Taipei especially has seen phenomenal growth in its metro development in the last 20 years.
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
America is no different. Try not paying your land tax.
The only difference is that, in America, someone needs to shout “eminent domain!” first and slip you $500 for your house.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 5 weeks ago
China has stronger property laws than the US, look up stuck nail houses. If the US ants your property, they can eminent domain your shit. In China, developers have literally had to swerve highways around property or build shopping centers around that one person who wont sell
ALiteralCabbage@feddit.uk 5 weeks ago
Wait until you hear about the UK! I own the freehold to my land, but technically it’s gramted by the crown, so I could in theory at any moment have my home taken from me.
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Wrong, the state owns the land but you can own the house, and not just for your 70y BS period.
There are plenty of articles like of instances where homeowners don’t want to sell for infrastructure like this: twistedsifter.com/…/china-builds-highway-around-h…
I know for a fact here in EU or the US they will indeed " just tells you to gtfo"
BTW, in China a high 90% of people OWN their house and aren’t rentslaves.
So there’s that China bad man.
grumpusbumpus@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
No just any shit, shit that helps everyday people living in their country.
I’m just thinking of the major cities in my U.S. state where the public transit map, before and after, looks like Chengdu in 2010. So as unfortunate as the circumstances are in Toronto, they can be even worse.
anachrohack@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
[deleted]Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 5 weeks ago
I cant find statistics on total occupancy rates, but I never saw a high speed train in China that wasnt mostly full, and they mosty sell out days beforehand, so Im pretty sure that’s just someone making shit up. As far as domestic debt due to infrastructure spending, apply your model to Japan.
zbyte64@awful.systems 5 weeks ago
Overproduction of commodities is certainly a problem for capitalists. But the workers get to enjoy a lower cost of living. Like I would much prefer we built ghost cities (Chengdu was derided as a ghost city at one point) than have a decades long housing crisis with no signs of improving unless we deport millions of people.
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
LOL thanks for your unfunded BS CIA.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 5 weeks ago
Much of the growth in China is entirely artificial and is basically a glorified jobs program. China builds tons of cities throughout the country to generate construction contracts and keep people employed.
I’d infinitely much rather have meaningful job programs that actually increase the real amount of wealth in the nation (such as public transport and housing) than whatever crisis the west has by building too little housing for people for the last few decades simply to make the cost of the existing real estate go up further so landlords can ask higher rents. What a nightmare, what a disaster. How could anybody shill for this?
CalipherJones@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
One of the reasons they can build their future so quickly is because they were left in a unique position after WW2 to effectively destroy their past.
gurnu@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
And they have slave labor. Oops, I guess that’s something that shouldn’t be said in a post pandering China
Jhex@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I’m curious, tell me more about this (actual question, not being sarcastic)
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
Chengdu is the capital city of the Chinese province of Sichuan. With a population of 20,937,757 at the 2020 census
Toronto is the most populous city in Canada and the capital city of the Canadian province of Ontario. With a population of 2,794,356 in 2021zockerr@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Meanwhile Hamburg, Germany with only 1.8 Million: 1000003619
elucubra@sopuli.xyz 5 weeks ago
Kind of misleading. That’s metro+light rail. Above ground light rail is massively cheaper to build than subways.
TheCleric@lemmy.org 5 weeks ago
DONT BRING NUANCE AND LOGIC TO A SENSELESS FEELINGS-BAITING POST! It doesn’t MATTER the city layout over top of it, the context of rapid and rampant industrialization in China, or something as inconsequential as number of people!
pyre@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
i don’t understand your reasoning here. are you saying that Toronto hasn’t needed more subway lines than a couple extensions in 15 years? how does the number of people affect the lines? i would think it should affect the number of trains and trips. the lines would be more about where people live and want to go, no?
poopkins@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Reading past your sarcasm, you’re suggesting that it’s better to have reduced public transit options than investing into them. I’m curious to hear your reasoning to argue that.
napkin2020@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 weeks ago
Not bad… With how things are going, if Mamdani wins, I could see NYC turning into a progressive city-state of sorts that people from the rest of the country will flock to for refuge.
With no more funding from the federal government, the differences between states are going to start getting much larger and blue states (and in cases like NYC large metro areas) are going to need to step up and fill in the gaps. It’s going to be rough.
poopkins@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
What is the required population threshold for investing into public transit? Above 3 million and below 20 million, it seems, but can you be more specific?
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
Why is it my job to provide policy? Can you be more specific?
boonhet@sopuli.xyz 5 weeks ago
Other comments have pointed out that Toronto also has a light rail system and other solutions. This post shows just the metro systems of both cities. Maybe when there’s an order of magnitude difference in population, the exact transit solutions needed differ?
metallic_substance@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I don’t care about the post itself, but OP, in the last 24 hours you’ve made something like 80 posts. What the fuck?
Davriellelouna@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I’m posting a shit ton of content to support Lemmy.
victorz@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
o7
ValarieLenin@midwest.social 5 weeks ago
o7
Tau@lemy.lol 5 weeks ago
o7
metallic_substance@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
So, first of all: o7, thank you for your service. Second, where the heck do you find the time?
diffaldo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
o7
SlartyBartFast@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
Bot, perhaps?
Davriellelouna@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
No, just a guy with a lot of free time.
starlinguk@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Maybe they’re not just mildly infuriated.
A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 5 weeks ago
Population: Chengdu over 20 million vs. under 3 million in Toronto.
The maps above also seem to be differently scaled.
Also, the fact that it has technologically developed fast in the past decades, as compared to Canada that has developed steadily in the past century, is not really the gotcha OP seems to imply it is.
That said, it’s perfectly possible that public transport in Toronto leaves much to be desired - without comparing it to Chengdu.
Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 5 weeks ago
The maps above also seem to be differently scaled.
The Toronto map is ~2x more-a-zoomied-in, judging by the distances between the farthest stations. In 2024, looking at the track maps, the driving distance between the farthest stations (Kipling to Kennedy) is 35km while that of Chengdu (天府机场北 to 何公路) is 93 km.
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 5 weeks ago
Don’t forget Chinese corner cutting. You probably have to knock 25% off of that if you want infrastructure of a level of quality and safety tolerable to Westerners.
I think it’s fair to guess China is less car-obsessed than Canada, and more serious about fighting climate change. That being said, without cheating it becomes pretty obvious we’re working with the same technology and fundamental logistics.
Witchfire@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Having moved to Toronto from NYC, transit could be much worse. NYC’s is larger to support the greater population but nearly everything about it is absolute trash tier, and it’s useless if you need to go to a borough that doesn’t start with M
rozodru@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
as someone who lives in Toronto I mean…you really don’t need an extensive subway network here. We have a lot of buses and several lines of street cars (trollys, trains on the road, whatever you call them where you live).
So what’s being shown here is ONLY the subway network. it doesn’t show the vast street car lines would would make it look A LOT like the China photo.
9488fcea02a9@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
mean…you really don’t need an extensive subway network here Found the 905’er
The streetcar network is a complete shitshow. Multiple streetcars bunched up, with hundreds of people inside, being blocked by a few SUV drivers and parked cars on the side.of the street.
Its faster to bike or walk in most cases.
Same for the buses. There’s a reason the bus lines hete have nicknames like “the sufferin’ dufferin”
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
At grade == weak
Jhex@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
is this why there is no traffic problems in Toronto and commute is not a suicide inducing nightmare?
BastingChemina@slrpnk.net 5 weeks ago
The last video of Not Just Bikes is specifically about Toronto’s streetcar.
ThirdConsul@lemmy.ml 5 weeks ago
street cars
Is at least one of them called Desire?
Logical@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
What’s up with all the China hype on Lemmy? These projects are impressive, no doubt, but their cost in terms of human rights violations are pretty high. I’m speaking generally, I don’t have the specifics with regards to this subway system. Either way it’s not really comparable to a project like this in a country like Canada imo.
napkin2020@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
!meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works
Lemmy has tankie problem.
AA5B@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
We don’t have to agree with China’s politics to appreciate that they did a positive thing. And we shouldn’t have to emulate their politics to get a thing done. We should be able to do it
zeca@lemmy.eco.br 5 weeks ago
What helps is that the aumomotive/gas industry lobby there isnt so effective.
mlg@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Pentagon wasted tax money on facebook bots to convince people in East Asia that the chinese covid vaccine was poison, so no one is really buying the “China human rights abuses are what allow China to succeed” idea anymore.
Especially since you can just as easily point to Japan’s infrastructure projects which achieved the same thing under US supervision post WWII, meaning said human rights violations aren’t even a supposed cost if there’s less evidence of it that of UAE literally pirating in immigrants to build their lavish towers and stadiums.
Of which the US fully supports, so this just goes back to the blame game of who is worse.
Yes, China has some shady ideas of what is considered acceptable behavior and work output from citizens, but the point is that they are using it to rapidly grow their infrastructure, unlike NA which take a decade for a single transit system to get approved all while car OEMs are pumping out dumpsterfire vehicles of whose parts are overwhelmingly made in China.
OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 5 weeks ago
Lemmy is more international than Reddit, so you’ll see more diverse perspectives
hansolo@lemmy.today 5 weeks ago
lol, as if it’s all magic?
Does the sinkhole caused by slapdash construction feature on the map?
reuters.com/…/subway-under-construction-collapses…
How about the shed where 4 people died during construction?
alexc@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Public transport policy in Toronto is a disaster. It is a complete disappointment of a city and an ugly blight on the landscape that serves only captialism and vapid mediocrity
burgerpocalyse@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
boiling down different countries having different things as one of them ‘winning’ and ‘beating us’ always fills me with nuclear levels of contrarianism. can tychus findlay from starcraft have a lit cigar in his mouth? NO, because china doesnt allow smoking in media. Guess we’re beating them!
buttnugget@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Talking about China’s human rights issues right away is very strange. Nobody does this if someone mentions a US project.
utopiah@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Orange vs Apple! Who will win!
That being said I do wish every country would have a better public infrastructure.
Just out of curiosity if you do have recent research in economy on the impact of subway, tram, bus, bike lanes, etc on both productivity AND happiness, please do share. I’m already convinced but I’d love to learn more on how and why.
perishthethought@piefed.social 5 weeks ago
Did ... Did they close stations on the Eastern line in Toronto?
cloudless@piefed.social 5 weeks ago
Not a fair comparison as Chengdu has multiple times the population of Toronto.
GnillikSeibab@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Is this another bot that all hails great mother china? They use people like disposable biomass when building this crap.
TemplaerDude@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
I do think there needs to be a shift in how the government invests in this country, but the answer isn’t “let’s go authoritarian”. Governments need to stop looking for big, complicated answers though and realize that production and growth comes from within, and improving mobility increases production, simple as that. You can invest in industries till the cows come home, but the optics of giving tax breaks and incentives to companies when it takes John 2 hours to drive to work is never going to be good.
yucandu@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
There’s loads of countries and cities around the world with better public transit than Toronto.
Plenty with democratic elections and freedom of expression too.
Only one reason someone would pick China over anywhere else.
cron@feddit.org 5 weeks ago
Wikipedia article for reference.
The Chengdu Metro is now the fourth largest metro system in the world with 630 km. To compare, London’s Unterground has about 400 km.
someguy3@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
That’s what federal directive and funding will do.
miss_demeanour@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
Maybe a car tunnel and more lanes, ready in 15-30 years, will solve the congestio!
kandoh@reddthat.com 5 weeks ago
A nation’s big construction projects tend to happen when labour is at its cheapest.
altkey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
I might be wrong but a lot of it’s wikipedia page looks like this city was completely reconstructed from the ground up in said period of time that makes it too exceptional for this comparison and not a usual occurence even in China. It became a major hub of China-EU trade upping it’s importance and neccesitating a boost in infrastructural efficiency while it’s population effectively doubled. A great move all around tho.
renrenPDX@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Yeah but how much of that is up to code?
roserose56@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
They just started the Ontario line. W are still waiting for he Eglinton Street car. i get your frustration! I think it’s a financial issue mainly, because the last CEO did a post about that, and said there is no money for expansion, and they had to ask government.
beejboytyson@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
We also have non labour’s camps
davidagain@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Doesn’t Toronto have the tram lines east west or trolley busses and buses with cheap flat price through ticketing for each journey?
The cables over and underground run from the cheap, green hydroelectric power?
If it’s cheap, regular, reliable with through ticketing, it’s good public transport, not bad.
nexguy@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I think the average construction worker in Chengdu made around $3 to $4 per hour building this. Not sure of the safety conditions.
Skyrmir@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Toronto is more bound to US economics than Chinese economics. You could make the same map for every major city and probably tell which they were more influenced by.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
man China is knocking it out of the park.
they are so successful!
/s
barnaclebutt@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Toronto in 1990 was approximately the same map.
bleistift2@sopuli.xyz 5 weeks ago
I guess it’s easier to undertake a massive infrastructure project if you can just tell residents to move it or else…
Luci@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
Careful, you might get a ban from .ml for saying that
CybranM@feddit.nu 5 weeks ago
The Chinese government is the most ethical government in the world according to people in .ml haha. Really boggles the mind
rustyfish@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Fuck ml. I am willing to bet the Chengdu one won’t survive the next 14 years. Or 5. But I am willing to give an half honest thumbs up to the tankies if it still stands in 2026.
ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
Also easier when you don’t need to worry you’ll be voted out for spending tax money on a massive infrastructure project.
yucandu@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
No, they do, the big difference is that they’ll be voted out and replaced by someone else from the same party.
Because there’s only one party.
renzhexiangjiao@piefed.blahaj.zone 5 weeks ago
it's a metro, no need to move anyone...
bleistift2@sopuli.xyz 5 weeks ago
Metros aren’t always underground. They also need entrances to their stops above ground.
KuroiKaze@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Except China respects user rights to an insane degree and there’s many images of giant infra projects going around one tiny homestead and whatnot. My guess is also Chinese typically are less game to make a big deal about new transit compared to the home owners of Canada. Where’s the Toronto excuse now?
thedarkfly@feddit.nl 5 weeks ago
Is that what they did? It’s a legitimate question, I’m not finding info online.