All jokes aside, things like this are why China is beating us. I am absolutely not a fan of the Chinese government, but the simple fact is they get shit done.
Public transit in Chengdu, China versus Toronto, Canada
Submitted 15 hours ago by Davriellelouna@lemmy.world to mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/12d19482-cc60-4000-bfb8-e813b6a5c9b6.jpeg
Comments
SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 11 hours ago
rustydomino@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
It helps that in China you can’t own land. All the land is owned by the government. You only have “use rights” and for a limited time (something like 80 years - I forget the exact number). So when it comes time to build infrastructure the government just tells you to gtfo.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 hours ago
China has stronger property laws than the US, look up stuck nail houses. If the US ants your property, they can eminent domain your shit. In China, developers have literally had to swerve highways around property or build shopping centers around that one person who wont sell
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
America is no different. Try not paying your land tax.
The only difference is that, in America, someone needs to shout “eminent domain!” first and slip you $500 for your house.
rustydomino@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
Look to public transit development in Taiwan as an example of how to do it right in a democratic nation. There are still loads of problems but the Taiwanese government can’t just take your land outright. Taipei especially has seen phenomenal growth in its metro development in the last 20 years.
CalipherJones@lemmy.world 8 hours ago
One of the reasons they can build their future so quickly is because they were left in a unique position after WW2 to effectively destroy their past.
gurnu@lemmy.world 5 hours ago
And they have slave labor. Oops, I guess that’s something that shouldn’t be said in a post pandering China
Jhex@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
I’m curious, tell me more about this (actual question, not being sarcastic)
anachrohack@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
Much of the growth in China is entirely artificial and is basically a glorified jobs program. China builds tons of cities throughout the country to generate construction contracts and keep people employed. This trend has sort of recently reached a head, and China is now suffering from a pretty large youth unemployment rate (something like 15% of young adults in China cannot find work).
Additionally, many of the public transportation routes in China were designed as vanity projects and have never become profitable. A lot of the high speed rail in China cuts through large swathes of uninhabited land and goes out to ghost cities where nobody lives because they were only built to create construction contracts. These rail lines are expensive to maintain and are bleeding money.
Now, of course you’d probably say that public transportation is a public good; they dont need to profit to benefit the country. That may be true, but it also means that the government needs to borrow money in order to subsidize these largely pointless rail lines (think of those maps where people propose a HSR line that goes from New York to California- a largely pointless route that almost nobody would take because it would be a lot faster to just take a plane).
This is not to say that the United States beats China in every category. In my view the United States has become a barely functioning legal fiction on the precipice of disintegration. My point is just that a lot of these things in China are artificially propped up by their relatively centrally planned economy and are designed to feed the egos of politicians. China is coming up on multiple fiscal, economic, and demographic cliffs that will most likely result in the shuttering of lots of these public works projects similar to how Argentina has been forced to shut down large amounts of public services because of decades of poor economic management.
And finally, to be fair, the United States is ALSO coming up on many economic cliffs, and in many ways has already flung itself far off of some of them, resulting in deteriorating fundamental public services such as education, healthcare, housing, public transportation, and regulatory agencies, not to mention the corruption which has also infested all of those
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 hours ago
I cant find statistics on total occupancy rates, but I never saw a high speed train in China that wasnt mostly full, and they mosty sell out days beforehand, so Im pretty sure that’s just someone making shit up. As far as domestic debt due to infrastructure spending, apply your model to Japan.
zbyte64@awful.systems 4 hours ago
Overproduction of commodities is certainly a problem for capitalists. But the workers get to enjoy a lower cost of living. Like I would much prefer we built ghost cities (Chengdu was derided as a ghost city at one point) than have a decades long housing crisis with no signs of improving unless we deport millions of people.
grumpusbumpus@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
No just any shit, shit that helps everyday people living in their country.
I’m just thinking of the major cities in my U.S. state where the public transit map, before and after, looks like Chengdu in 2010. So as unfortunate as the circumstances are in Toronto, they can be even worse.
bleistift2@sopuli.xyz 15 hours ago
I guess it’s easier to undertake a massive infrastructure project if you can just tell residents to move it or else…
Luci@lemmy.ca 15 hours ago
Careful, you might get a ban from .ml for saying that
CybranM@feddit.nu 13 hours ago
The Chinese government is the most ethical government in the world according to people in .ml haha. Really boggles the mind
rustyfish@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
Fuck ml. I am willing to bet the Chengdu one won’t survive the next 14 years. Or 5. But I am willing to give an half honest thumbs up to the tankies if it still stands in 2026.
ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca 14 hours ago
Also easier when you don’t need to worry you’ll be voted out for spending tax money on a massive infrastructure project.
yucandu@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
No, they do, the big difference is that they’ll be voted out and replaced by someone else from the same party.
Because there’s only one party.
renzhexiangjiao@piefed.blahaj.zone 14 hours ago
it's a metro, no need to move anyone...
bleistift2@sopuli.xyz 13 hours ago
Metros aren’t always underground. They also need entrances to their stops above ground.
thedarkfly@feddit.nl 12 hours ago
Is that what they did? It’s a legitimate question, I’m not finding info online.
rozodru@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
as someone who lives in Toronto I mean…you really don’t need an extensive subway network here. We have a lot of buses and several lines of street cars (trollys, trains on the road, whatever you call them where you live).
So what’s being shown here is ONLY the subway network. it doesn’t show the vast street car lines would would make it look A LOT like the China photo.
Jhex@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
is this why there is no traffic problems in Toronto and commute is not a suicide inducing nightmare?
9488fcea02a9@sh.itjust.works 9 hours ago
mean…you really don’t need an extensive subway network here Found the 905’er
The streetcar network is a complete shitshow. Multiple streetcars bunched up, with hundreds of people inside, being blocked by a few SUV drivers and parked cars on the side.of the street.
Its faster to bike or walk in most cases.
Same for the buses. There’s a reason the bus lines hete have nicknames like “the sufferin’ dufferin”
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
with hundreds of people inside
Wow. It sounds very utilized. That awesome.
rozodru@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
sorry bud, I live in Beaconsfild village. I ride the vomit commit almost daily. We don’t need an extensive subway network.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 11 hours ago
At grade == weak
A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 15 hours ago
Population: Chengdu over 20 million vs. under 3 million in Toronto.
The maps above also seem to be differently scaled.
Also, the fact that it has technologically developed fast in the past decades, as compared to Canada that has developed steadily in the past century, is not really the gotcha OP seems to imply it is.
That said, it’s perfectly possible that public transport in Toronto leaves much to be desired - without comparing it to Chengdu.
bleistift2@sopuli.xyz 14 hours ago
Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 14 hours ago
That doesn't really place the transit network.
Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 14 hours ago
The maps above also seem to be differently scaled.
The Toronto map is ~2x more-a-zoomied-in, judging by the distances between the farthest stations. In 2024, looking at the track maps, the driving distance between the farthest stations (Kipling to Kennedy) is 35km while that of Chengdu (天府机场北 to 何公路) is 93 km.
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 12 hours ago
Don’t forget Chinese corner cutting. You probably have to knock 25% off of that if you want infrastructure of a level of quality and safety tolerable to Westerners.
I think it’s fair to guess China is less car-obsessed than Canada, and more serious about fighting climate change. That being said, without cheating it becomes pretty obvious we’re working with the same technology and fundamental logistics.
brunoqc@piefed.ca 12 hours ago
Don't forget Chinese corner cutting. You probably have to knock 25% off of that if you want infrastructure of a level of quality and safety tolerable to Westerners.
Is that a thing? It sounds a bit like some bullshit propaganda from here. China = bad.
Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 12 hours ago
what do you mean "knock 25% off of that" (off what?) and "without cheating it becomes pretty obvious we're working with the same technology and fundamental logistics in this map"? sorry i'm just struggling to parse this
Witchfire@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
Having moved to Toronto from NYC, transit could be much worse. NYC’s is larger to support the greater population but nearly everything about it is absolute trash tier, and it’s useless if you need to go to a borough that doesn’t start with M
metallic_substance@lemmy.world 13 hours ago
I don’t care about the post itself, but OP, in the last 24 hours you’ve made something like 80 posts. What the fuck?
Davriellelouna@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
I’m posting a shit ton of content to support Lemmy.
diffaldo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 hour ago
o7
victorz@lemmy.world 11 hours ago
o7
Tau@lemy.lol 10 hours ago
o7
ValarieLenin@midwest.social 11 hours ago
o7
metallic_substance@lemmy.world 5 hours ago
So, first of all: o7, thank you for your service. Second, where the heck do you find the time?
SlartyBartFast@sh.itjust.works 12 hours ago
Bot, perhaps?
Davriellelouna@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
No, just a guy with a lot of free time.
starlinguk@lemmy.world 13 hours ago
Maybe they’re not just mildly infuriated.
alexc@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
Public transport policy in Toronto is a disaster. It is a complete disappointment of a city and an ugly blight on the landscape that serves only captialism and vapid mediocrity
lordnikon@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
its sad im over here in Dallas and im envious of Toronto.
MerrySkeptic@sh.itjust.works 14 hours ago
Here in San Antonio we have zero rail so…
bdonvr@thelemmy.club 7 hours ago
And still WAY ahead of a ton of similarly sized cities on the continent
kevincox@lemmy.ml 11 hours ago
It’s a disaster until you compare it to most other North American cities. Like what is better? NYC and Montreal? I’m sure there are a few other cities that I can’t think of.
But its true that it has been neglected for decades. Thankfully that has changed a bit recently with 2 new lines being in construction. However the maintenance budget is continually insufficient to keep everything in good repair. Only new projects make your government look good I guess. (But we need both new projects and maintenance)
alexc@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
I agree that North America is appalling. I grew up in Europe, so that is my main comparison.
The two new lines would be helpful, but as someone that lived in Toronto for 15 years until very recently, I believe they were horribly mismanaged. Like most of the city is…
TemplaerDude@sh.itjust.works 12 hours ago
I do think there needs to be a shift in how the government invests in this country, but the answer isn’t “let’s go authoritarian”. Governments need to stop looking for big, complicated answers though and realize that production and growth comes from within, and improving mobility increases production, simple as that. You can invest in industries till the cows come home, but the optics of giving tax breaks and incentives to companies when it takes John 2 hours to drive to work is never going to be good.
shalafi@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
Bet money America’s interstate highway system would not pass today’s Congress. And can you imagine conservatives bitching about the spend?!
For non-Americans, our interstate highways are federally funded, safe, consistently engineered and tie the country together. If interstates magically disappeared, our economy would collapse within a month.
humanspiral@lemmy.ca 7 hours ago
Interstate highway is oil. Interstate highway is love.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 10 hours ago
can you imagine conservatives bitching about the spend?!
Nonsense. They wouldn’t even know that ‘spend’ isn’t a noun when you’re not on the car lot. #soFetch
humanspiral@lemmy.ca 8 hours ago
I do think there needs to be a shift in how the government invests in this country, but the answer isn’t “let’s go authoritarian”.
In the end, its more about getting things done, and investing in society, rather than how strongly you can shout your opinion about transgender folk. A government that invests in society is one not focused on either enriching itself, or cutting all social spending to fund tax cuts for oligarchs. When the only acts we/society/rulers ever implement is giveaways to their sponsors, you could think about your programming that tells you your rulership is the best system of all.
NABDad@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
improving mobility increases production
Can you restate that in a way that makes it clear that the billionaire class will be able to utilize the project to rape and pillage society and increase income inequity? Otherwise, I don’t see how anyone can support it.
yucandu@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
There’s loads of countries and cities around the world with better public transit than Toronto.
Plenty with democratic elections and freedom of expression too.
Only one reason someone would pick China over anywhere else.
perishthethought@piefed.social 15 hours ago
Did ... Did they close stations on the Eastern line in Toronto?
mercano@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
Yeah. Line 3 used different rolling stock than the other three lines, unusual linear induction motor powered equipment, which was reaching the end of its service life. The plan was to shut it down in November 2023 and temporarily replace it with bus service while they built a Line 2 extension to serve the neighborhoods Line 3 used to. Unfortunately, a train derailed in July 2023, which resulted in the system shutting down four months sooner than expected.
The Line 2 extension is going to take a different route to eventually arrive at Line 3’s old terminus. I think there’s plans to covert the old line 3 viaduct into a Bus Rapid Transit guideway.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world 14 hours ago
If I’m not mistaken, the rolling stock (cars/trains) from the, now closed, Scarborough line is actually in use in Detroit because they used the same systems.
cloudless@piefed.social 15 hours ago
Not a fair comparison as Chengdu has multiple times the population of Toronto.
cron@feddit.org 15 hours ago
I think it’s less about the absolute dimensions than about the fact that Toronto’s metro barely grew at all.
A_norny_mousse@feddit.org 15 hours ago
This. 20 million vs. under 3 million in Toronto.
Also, the fact that it has technologically developed fast in the past decades, as compared to Canada that has developed steadily in the past century, is not really the plus OP seems to imply it is.
That said, it’s perfectly possible that public transport in Toronto leaves much to be desired - without comparing it to China.
renrenPDX@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
Yeah but how much of that is up to code?
caboose2006@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
Probably most if not all. Despite some well publisized failures these big government transit projects tend to be pretty good. It’s amazing how fast you can get things done if you don’t care about zoning, the environment, money, worker conditions or safety.
cron@feddit.org 15 hours ago
Wikipedia article for reference.
The Chengdu Metro is now the fourth largest metro system in the world with 630 km. To compare, London’s Unterground has about 400 km.
someguy3@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
That’s what federal directive and funding will do.
miss_demeanour@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 hours ago
Maybe a car tunnel and more lanes, ready in 15-30 years, will solve the congestio!
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world 9 hours ago
man China is knocking it out of the park.
they are so successful!
/s
roserose56@lemmy.ca 15 hours ago
They just started the Ontario line. W are still waiting for he Eglinton Street car. i get your frustration! I think it’s a financial issue mainly, because the last CEO did a post about that, and said there is no money for expansion, and they had to ask government.
nexguy@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
I think the average construction worker in Chengdu made around $3 to $4 per hour building this. Not sure of the safety conditions.
Skyrmir@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
Toronto is more bound to US economics than Chinese economics. You could make the same map for every major city and probably tell which they were more influenced by.
barnaclebutt@lemmy.world 12 hours ago
Toronto in 1990 was approximately the same map.
NarrativeBear@lemmy.world 13 hours ago
I still find it unbelievable that a full subway line was just erased and there was no plan for a replacement.
boatswain@infosec.pub 14 hours ago
When you say “public transit”, does that include bus lines, or only rail?
MissJinx@lemmy.world 13 hours ago
Easy when all the equipment and materials needed are made by the same people that will build it
ddplf@szmer.info 15 hours ago
There is a reason why European countries stopped building wonders, while other parts of the world keep on undergoing tremendous construction efforts.
The reason is slavery.
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca 8 hours ago
Chengdu is the capital city of the Chinese province of Sichuan. With a population of 20,937,757 at the 2020 census
Toronto is the most populous city in Canada and the capital city of the Canadian province of Ontario. With a population of 2,794,356 in 2021
zockerr@lemmy.world 42 minutes ago
Meanwhile Hamburg, Germany with only 1.8 Million: 1000003619
TheCleric@lemmy.org 3 hours ago
DONT BRING NUANCE AND LOGIC TO A SENSELESS FEELINGS-BAITING POST! It doesn’t MATTER the city layout over top of it, the context of rapid and rampant industrialization in China, or something as inconsequential as number of people!
pyre@lemmy.world 1 hour ago
i don’t understand your reasoning here. are you saying that Toronto hasn’t needed more subway lines than a couple extensions in 15 years? how does the number of people affect the lines? i would think it should affect the number of trains and trips. the lines would be more about where people live and want to go, no?
HugeNerd@lemmy.ca 2 hours ago
China BAD?
napkin2020@sh.itjust.works 3 hours ago
Image
NY with almost half of the population of Chengdu.