What’s the opinion on certain high risk countries where there’s a high likelihood of the artifacts simply being destroyed? If I remember correctly ISIS and other similar organizations have burned or bombed several historical sites before.
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Submitted 3 weeks ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to science_memes@mander.xyz
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Comments
greenskye@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Museums should participate in cultural exchange, if a museum feels under threat then they have channels they can trust to protect their artifacts until they can be returned
merc@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
if a museum feels under threat
If you run a museum in Afghanistan and are afraid that the Taliban is going to execute you unless you destroy some blasphemous statue, are you going to risk your life to send the artifact to the British Museum, or are you just going to destroy it? Yeah, some heroes will definitely risk their lives, but most won’t.
But_my_mom_says_im_cool@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
The only opinion that should matter is that of the people the artifacts belong to.
“It’s safer with us” is an excuse that’s been abused by colonizers and raiders for too long.
merc@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
The only opinion that should matter is that of the people the artifacts belong to.
Which people? The government? So in Afghanistan it’s up to the Taliban? If you don’t trust that the government of a country represents the will of the people, then how do you determine what the people want?
And, again, which people? Is a totem pole in a museum in Canada the property of the Canadian people? Or is it something that belongs to the Haida people, and it doesn’t matter what other Canadians want? If it is up to the Haida, it is up to the Council of the Haida Nation, or is it up to the band the original artist belonged to?
What about a Tatar artifact found in Donetsk? Who gets control over that? Is it the Russians since they occupy Donetsk? The Ukrainians because they used to occupy it? Do you have to study the blood of various Ukrainian people to figure out who has the most surviving Tatar DNA?
greenskye@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
What if some of the locals want it taken away for protection, but the government wants it destroyed?
There’s no clear ‘owner’ in many cases. I think it places where it’s uncertain, then we should prioritize saving the artifacts over the ones that seek to destroy them.
KittyCat@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
In many cases there is no owner, they’re from a completely separate culture that happened to occupy the same region in the past.
makyo@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
We have to be extremely wary of people who cite that because it’s so easily used as a justification for artifact theft and can have deep roots in racism.
nexguy@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
That’s the question. Where is the line between racism and artifact protection?
toast@retrolemmy.com 3 weeks ago
If you’re suggesting a daring heist at the Smithsonian, I’m in!
MeowZedong@lemmygrad.ml 3 weeks ago
Much like the theft of historical artifacts by the UK et al, ISIS was the result of decades of imperialist meddling by the US. Maybe just leave things be and let the locals work out what they want to do with their land, their people, and the artifacts on it. Offering assistance without strings attached is good, interventions are bad.
It’s like offering to help your neighbor with their yard: it’s acceptable to offer to lend them your mower, but it’s not acceptable to dig up everything on their property, replace it with grass sod, and spray it regularly with herbicides because you didn’t like the look of their local fauna and are afraid the dandelions and clover would spread to your lawn after your first intervention.
greenskye@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
Who do you recognize as the authority to make that decision though? If the locals are currently ruled by a terrorist group or Nazis or whatever, do they get to decide? What about the locals that disagree with the government currently in power?
And an answer of ‘if we just didn’t needlessly meddle’ might be the ideal, but it’s ignoring the realities that we have meddled and some countries are unlikely to stop doing so. We have to accept the world we have not the one we wished we had.
m532@lemmygrad.ml 3 weeks ago
ISIS works for usa, so, the answer is kill all yanks
TempermentalAnomaly@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Gonna play a game of comment roulette. How far do I have to scroll before I see someone say something like, “That can’t be in their museum because they can’t be trusted with it”.
Spinning the chamber now.
Anomalocaris@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
on the other hand how often things go missing in the British museum?
DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 3 weeks ago
Eurotrash gonna eurotrash.
pugnaciousfarter@literature.cafe 2 weeks ago
Anomalocaris@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
i need someone to convince me why it is wrong to steal from the British museum gift shop
Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Will you display for free all your stolen giftshop loot for everyone to see?
Anomalocaris@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
I’ll showcase it to people I allow on my house, and say I take care of it, but what if I put then in ebay? who is going to stop me
jumping_redditor@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
better a museum than on a shelf in someone’s living room (no I won’t be donating it)
Agent641@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
They are my human skulls I found them fair and square
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
This is why I always donate my finished books to my local library. I don’t need them, and if I want to read it again I can always just go check it out from the library.
troyunrau@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Countries and borders are an arbitrary concept created during the peace treaty of Westphalia.
Those relics belong to dead people.
TimewornTraveler@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
Attributing modern concepts of borders to Westphalia is a Eurocentric worldview. What, you don’t think they had the concept of statehood and sovereignty in Asia for at least a few thousand years prior to this?
Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
ebolapie@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Hot take: all world heritage artifacts should be located in the most geopolitically stable area possible
Hotter take: un peacekeepers should protect world heritage sites with weapons-free orders
ProvableGecko@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Countries and borders are an arbitrary concept created during the peace treaty of Westphalia.
Stealing this foolproof argument for when I apply for a UK visa to go to British Museum. Thanks!
pugnaciousfarter@literature.cafe 2 weeks ago
Those relics belong to dead people.
No, it belongs to a community. Does something stop belonging to a people if the original creators die? No.
That way nobody owns any land, because it belongs to the amoeba.
Returning the artifacts is meant to be a good will gesture, and a sort of a reparation (in lieu of the actual reparations) for all the horrible colonial era crimes that were propagated not more than even 100 years ago.
ieGod@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
I think I get the gist of what you’re saying but they’re very much not arbitrary. They’re a direct manifestation of a state’s ability to exert control.
troyunrau@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
We agree entirely.
Without the ability to exert control and therefore reinforce the definition, borders are as arbitrary as any other law. They are created by people, enforced by people, and if we change our mind then they can go away. It’s not some intrinsic property of the planet.
While I’m ranting, the definition of a relic or artifact is equally arbitrary. As well as the definition of a people. And ownership. At any point in history, these definitions will be different. Right now we’ve defined it in such a way that we’ve decided that it is socially acceptable to return relics to people who live inside geographic areas where the relics originated from. This is also arbitrary.
But as long as people, decide to exert force to reinforce this definitions, there is true as any other law.
CybranM@feddit.nu 2 weeks ago
Countries and borders are an arbitrary concept
Very Lemmy comment haha
troyunrau@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
When I was in grad school, the philosophy of science students would egg me on with things like: “I’ll buy you a beer if you can prove the electron is real”. I’d like to think I’m carrying on their tradition in science memes.
moobythegoldensock@infosec.pub 3 weeks ago
Gotta love how the first movie opens with him stealing an idol from an uncontacted Peruvian tribe, and the heroic music swells as he narrowly escapes with spears flying around them.
Granted, this takes place in 1936 and his actions were the norm for the period, but despite coming out in 1981 the movie plays this scene out rather uncritically.
chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
He narrowly escapes with his life after having the idol stolen from him by his rival, Belloq, who works for the Nazis and actually hired that Peruvian tribe to be his little private army. Belloq is the one who orders the Peruvians to attack Jones.
moobythegoldensock@infosec.pub 3 weeks ago
Where do you get that he hired them?
The opening scene is them discussing that the tribe would kill them just for being in the area, and then Belloq taunts Jones saying he can’t warn them that he’s scamming them because Jones doesn’t speak Hovitos. No where does it say he hired them.
Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Temple of Doom had way more questionable scenes in it with the banquet, the heroic British soldiers at the end and… Short Round. Did they really have to name him that?
Although the cultists were based on a real group and I actually saw something that looked like the heart thing in an Indian movie, so maybe that’s based on something real as well.
pugnaciousfarter@literature.cafe 2 weeks ago
I doubt it.
There are 1.4 billion people. I think there’d be a stereotype about them doing black magic if it was an ever prevalent thing.
To be fair to the movie, it isn’t trying to say all Indians worship dark gods. It’s just depicting a cult that happens to be in India.
NigelFrobisher@aussie.zone 3 weeks ago
Yeah, but if the tribe made those traps that still work perfectly after hundreds of years, imagine how advanced they must be by now. Dr Jones was probably within miles of a hidden techno utopia and never had a clue.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Marion, this is a movie made in the 1980s and set in the 1930s, what the hell are you even talking about?
DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social 3 weeks ago
“I liked you better when you were a child I was grooming!”
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Marion, you knew when you met me that I came from the mind of George Lucas. It’s not my fault I’m a little fucked up!
Anomalocaris@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
That attitude gets retconed in the great circle.
where he explicitly says that it belongs in a museum and helps locals get their relics to keep safe in their museums. ie, it belongs in their museums.
good game overall
Kolanaki@pawb.social 3 weeks ago
It should belong to the country of origin, but it could also be shared and tour around museums across the globe so an even greater number of people can check it out. They do this with art pieces. Why not cultural artifacts, too? Is not everyone entitled to learning about anything, including someone else’s culture?
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
I would assume there would be arguments around transporting them increasing the chances of it breaking. It would really only make sense to move these back to their country of origin and have them remain there to minimize potential points of failure. The rarer the artifact itself (another rusted out sword or plain clay cup versus a one of a kind manuscript whose pages have become incredibly delicate) the less their respective owners are going to want it to be moved.
Instead, we should be allowing more people the ability to travel and take time to go explore other cultures in their country of origin instead of trying to transport priceless artifacts across the globe.
odelik@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
Fun fact: Many cultural artificats do go on tour!
For example I’ve seen both Pompeii & King Tutt exhibits in San Diego that have since rotated. I’ve also seen other traveling exhibits in several other major cities I’ve lived in that were far more than art.
Many cities also have free admission days to museums for people that live nearby (depends on the institution but it could be for City/County/State).
With this knowledge, you too, can now learn and explore societies that predate written word.
lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
Many ethnic minorities complain that their cultural heritage is exhibitioned in the capital far away. Countries are a social construct
Kuori@hexbear.net 3 weeks ago
doesn’t mean crackers are off the hook for centuries of theft
HowAbt2morrow@futurology.today 3 weeks ago
Mf’kin crackahs be trippin and shit.
BoxedFenders@hexbear.net 3 weeks ago
Do you REALLY think a minority ethnic group in say, Nigeria, would rather have their artifacts locked away in London under the stewardship of Anglos rather than displayed in Lagos where they can at least visit it?
lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
I didn’t say that, how do people read that into my comment? I was giving additional context that it is not enough to bring it anywhere into the country. Sure, keeping it in London is worse, I never said it’s better.
Many anti-colonial activists will point out that the modern day governments are the collaborators from back then and still they get the reparations and artifacts. Sure, keeping them in London is worse, I never defended that.
pugnaciousfarter@literature.cafe 2 weeks ago
So it’s better to keep it somewhere thousands of kilometres away where they’ll never be able to see it as compared to having difficulty seeing it?
lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
I never said it’s better to keep it but it’s not enough to bring it somewhere in the country. Countries are a social construct so instead of focusing on boarders, bring it directly to the cultural heirs. Of cause keeping it is worse. If the capital is too far away, why would London be better?
Semjaza@lemmynsfw.com 3 weeks ago
So a museum in Western Europe or the US is better, or just as bad?
lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
It’s worse, obviously. It’s not enough to bring it into the country but it’s worse to keep it in Western Europe or the US. You could argue that once it’s in the capital it won’t travel anywhere closer to the people but when it stays in London or Berlin, it’s not moving anywhere. On the other hand, once you ship it to the country of origin, you can take the extra mile and bring it to the cultural heirs. But keeping it is the worst option.
supersquirrel@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
Why are the pyramids in egypt?
Because they were too big for the british museum.
Scott_of_the_Arctic@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Well I’m British so… fuuuck that!
vga@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
They’re too poor to have museums so by default yoink
SpaceScotsman@startrek.website 2 weeks ago
Honestly, “country of origin” will have straight lines drawn on a map that are so far removed from where the people who lived there originally considered their borders even that’s probably not pinning it down well enough.
raspberriesareyummy@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Karen Allen, the perfect example of aging naturally and radiating beauty.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
wanderwisley@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
Britannia Jones and the stolen museum artifacts.
Surenho@lemmy.wtf 3 weeks ago
The museum could pay rent per item to the country the artifacts originate from? Bad idea?
epicstove@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Laughs in British
burgerpocalyse@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
if you want to compare Indiana Jones to real life, the movies say flat out that he is an unscrupulous grave robber and he is completely aware of the hypocrisy. its part of his character arc, where he’s all about fortune and glory and doesnt believe in any of the mystical crap, until he is confronted with powers he didn’t understand and fights to stop others from exploiting them. and at the end of the day it was a movie
MacNCheezus@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
Finders keepers, them’s the rules. Don’t blame me.
samus12345@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
kruhmaster@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Forgot the zoom on the bottom panels.
muhyb@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
-Why there are pyramids in Egypt?
-Because Brits couldn’t moved them to British Museum.
GandalftheBlack@feddit.org 3 weeks ago
Imagine doing a Gate of Ishtar maneuver but with the pyramids
Zagorath@aussie.zone 3 weeks ago
It’s not quite the same thing (particularly because of the motivation), but, uhh…I suggest you read about Abu Simbel, if you haven’t already.
damdy@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
To be fair. Most of the pyramids were raided far before the British took an interest and whatever they held has now been lost to time.
muhyb@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
Eh, I meant the whole pyramids but fair enough.
lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com 3 weeks ago
how to write lists
markdown - Why there are pyramids in Egypt? - Because Brits couldn’t moved them to British Museum.renders to > - Why there are pyramids in Egypt? > - Because Brits couldn’t moved them to British Museum.Markdown guide is in the toolbar (?⃝) alongside a button for lists.
muhyb@programming.dev 3 weeks ago
Well, that’s the reason why I didn’t write it like that. I wanted it to look like a dash, just like in novels.
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
TIL what quotation dashes are.