Submitted 5 weeks ago by DuckWrangler9000@lemmy.world to [deleted]
You’re looking at it all wrong.
You’re letting yourself get pushed around. The parents have their priorities figured out. They know work isn’t their life. You should stop trying to narc on other people and stand up for your own self.
Having kids you have absolutely unbreakable obligations. Work shit can wait. You’ll learn that eventually.
Because my boss knows if he tries to make me pick between my job and my baby girl… He WILL lose. There wont be a discussion or an argument, he will lose, I might get fired but so be it.
Once people have kids they have more to lose, but running head to head with them instead of making minor concessions is the dumb move. Theres always another job and guaranteed they will start looking immediately if they dont quit outright if you pick that fight. As a supervisor at my job people with kids are also more inclined to bust arse to make sure people arent carrying their load when they do need a bit of special treatment because they still need to provide and have a solid income.
Everything here is great until you got to the sanctimonious "you'll learn that eventually" shit.
So you’re telling on yourself that you haven’t figured out that “work can wait”?
You’ll learn that eventually.
Parents just might quit over work interference in kid stuff. There a legal repercussions for not doing some kid things.
If you are treated badly, don’t get mad at people who are treated a bit less badly.
As someone without children:
They should, yes. Children are extremely important for our future so especially people who earn well and can provide their children with a good life (likely leading to a successful carrier later on) should be encouraged to have them.
Additionally this kind of culture is needed if we want women to have same chances as men (since childcare still is majorly done by women, and likely always will be (progressive families split it evenly, conservative families don’t or at least don’t split it evenly, for every families where the father does more there’s at least one where the mother does more))
As someone with kids: they should not. This kind of basic flexibility should be the bar for all employees, regardless of family status.
So they should get this kind of treatment, it just shouldn’t be special.
We are approaching 10 billion people on this Earth.
At some point people should realize that the important thing for our future is having less children, not more.
Population is shrinking in developed countries, looks like that issue will erase itself as more and more countries are developed.
in a different team
Maybe this all comes down to the boss of the other team not being a dick? Life and work are not separate things. A good manager knows this. If your manager is making you work through lunch , not take breaks, not go to the doctor, etc. then you have a manager problem and this has absolutely nothing to do with who does/doesn’t have children.
Also depending on where they live making them work through lunch / breaks is illegal without extra pay. Look up your local labor laws.
The better question is why management is giving you flack? That’s the issue. Not your coworkers with kids.
Lots of great points in the comments. But I think so far no one has really addressed your core complaint head on, which is why society tolerates a double standard here.
Parents get a pass because they are supporting more than just themselves… It may appear that the parent who is getting a free pass is pulling less weight, if you look at this exclusively through the lens of comparing contribution to the company’s productivity. But if you expand that lens a bit, you see that raising a child is also work to be valued (which you benefitted from yourself, btw). Frankly, a company with a work culture that considers its social responsibility to the community beyond merely spitting out products is a really good thing.
If you are ok with the double standard of handicapped parking, you should be ok with this too.
raising a child is also work to be valued (which you benefitted from yourself, btw).
This.
And it’s not a binary thing, it’s a scale. Kids who are supported by emotionally stable parents who are able to spend their time together are more likely to succeed in life than kids who are left to their own devices and end up picking up all sorts of insecurities due to the parent being sort of a nerve wreck, and them eventually feeling like a burden all the time.
I will happily support my colleague spending more of his time with his daughters, because then when I’m old, I have higher chance that those daughters being confident, nice and educated adult people who can produce economical value. Only then, part of that value can come back to me in various forms of support, whether it’s pension, better social services or just more options. (Unless they move to another country – but then again, that depends on the relative quality of life in this country, which in turn boils down to the same principle.)
Now, maybe I’m a nice guy here, but none of the above logic requires me to be nice. I could be a totally selfish asshole and still the position works out the same.
That sounded very American. Is this a US specific problem?
why can’t you work through lunch?
Seriously, there’s something wrong with your boss or perhaps even the whole company. If you need to get stuff done during your lunch hour, you just go ahead and do it. Why should your boss care as long as you do your job during the other hours of the week.
It seems like you might not realize, but much of White collar America works right through lunch. It’s the standard. You will work your ass off your entire life, and you will be grateful for your job, they will not be grateful for you. That’s the standard that has been set in the USA. Hell, at least once a week I’m on a call with some other team and there’s someone calling in from a doctor’s office. Had a guy say he had to step out of the doctor’s office mid visit with his doctor just to take a call and I thought that was the most absurd and ridiculous thing I have heard in a really long time. You’re literally in the chair talking to the doctor and you say hold on sorry I got to leave really quick for business. Like what the heck?
I work an office job in the US. You need to find a better job. No one here is required or even expected to skip lunch. Scheduling is often difficult, so many of my colleagues put it on their calendars as reserved time/another meeting. You can’t schedule a meeting with John at noon. It doesn’t matter if it’s because he’s in another meeting or at lunch; he’s already booked.
Yes, there are many terrible employers. If you work for one, you need to leave.
That can’t be healthy in the long run. I wonder if it makes Americans snap and go totally postal. Or maybe people just burn out and decide to jump in the nearest river.
I work in the US and this is not universally true. Though a lot of companies will make you feel that way, there are many that wouldn’t do this. My company respects my lunch hour. I know many that have the same situation.
I don’t have kids myself, but I understand that it’s the employers fault they don’t extend the same privileges to me, not the parents fault for receiving the privilege.
Exactly. This whole argument is just allowing corporate greed and manufactured resource scarcity to win.
Working class trying to remove rights and privileges from the working class because the ruling class creates a situation that encourages it.
I think your complaint is similar to that of non smokers when smoke breaks were normal. What you see as preferential treatment is just how everyone should be treated.
Also, In my 20 or so years in the legitimate workforce, I have seen parents cut slack and parents get run off because the boss doesn’t like people having other priorities. In my direct experience it’s been a lot more boss dependent than anything else.
Working class trying to strip other working class of rights and privileges. Yes parents of children should get considerations according to their need.
There’s always some sort of excuse with them. Have to go pick him up from the bus stop, have to go pick him up from school because they got in trouble, dance recital during the middle of the day, always something.
I am a single parent and work the same hours per timesheet and get the same allotment of personal leave per year as everybody else at my employer.
If I happen to use that personal leave to pick up a kid who threw up in their classroom while somebody else uses it to see their optometrist or attend a funeral isn’t really anybody’s business.
I take one early afternoon each week to take my kid to an after school activity, this puts a weekly 2 or 3 hour deficit in my timesheet that I either make up by working a bit longer on the other days or if the sheet doesn’t balance I make up the difference by spending some annual leave. (I try to avoid using AL like this because I would rather save it for holidays but it is occasionally required.)
I don’t telegraph all of this timesheet accounting to my colleagues, they will know which day I’m leaving early that term and the rest isn’t really their business. At the end of the day/month/year I have my schedule OKed by my line manager and work the commitments of my contract.
But when it comes to ordinary normal people who don’t have kids, it feels like there’s a lot more scrutiny. Why do you need a doctor’s appointment in the middle of the day? Why do you need to go pick up a prescription at lunch time, like why can’t you work through lunch?
If your employer / manager is second guessing your leave thats an issue between you and them and shouldn’t have your looking at your peers with resentment.
I think in general people should be understanding of each others’ situations and make things easier on them where possible.
Speaking as a parent, I can pretty much guarantee that you are living a less stressful life than your coworkers with kids. Not sure it means much but hey
First part: 100% agree. The problem is that the empathy and compassion isn’t directed at everybody, not that parents get something extra. Everyone should get that extra empathy, and as long as you get your work done, who cares what responsibilities you have at home?
Second part: Hard disagree. There’s simply no way you can know what’s really going on in your coworkers’ lives. People also experience stress very differently, it’s quite relative. I think it’s universal statements like this that are part of the issue. Everybody deserves empathy, compassion, and the flexibility to live a full life while having a job. Parents don’t deserve that more than non-parents.
I cab pretty much guarantee that you have no fucking clue what any other person is dealing with.
you scold people like this irl too?
Second paragraph is an easy one on my bingo card. Parents are so predictable always thinking they are more tired or more stressed than any non-parent. It doesn’t work like that.
Parents do have a lot of reasons to be tired or stressed but it is self elected. Non-parents (and Parents!) Can also have self elected things that are stressful or tiring. Worse when is when someone has a non- elected thing that is stressful or tiring-- parent or not.
Being a parent is just a low level way to group people, but it doesn’t mean anything other than they just decided to procreate. I certainly have empathy when my coworkers are telling me about how they are tired because of a kid. But empathy should go both ways. Listening to conversations thinking that you have the trump card on stress is a shitty way to approach conversations.
Obviously I’m aware that people face all kinds of challenges and stressors, it’s the entire fucking point of my first paragraph. I wasn’t trying to start a “who’s more stressed” contest here, it was a throwaway half-joke attempt to make OP feel better.
Seriously, internet, can you chill? Do I have to speak with absolute precision and clarity at all times?
I’m a parent, and I don’t want special treatment. Some consideration would be nice, but honestly I just want every employee to be treated like adults.
The only co-worker I have on my team has two kids. She’s an absolute pleasure to work with and is a champ when it comes to getting shit done.
As a result, I go out of my way to ensure that she’s covered when she needs to do things for/with her kids. Mainly because I really don’t wanna lose her but also because she pulls her weight and doesn’t ever take advantage of the situation.
I don’t have kids, don’t want 'em, and don’t really care if anyone else does, but if you’re a good teammate and I can see you’re a great parent too, I’ll support you as much as I can.
I don’t think so but tbh it sounds like you’re just in a bit of a shitty team. My coworkers with kids do the same thing but so do I with no kids. I can just disappear for a bit as long as I’m getting my work done
Exactly. I disappear quite often, just like my colleagues with kids do. We all trust each other to get our work done, so nobody cares what we actually do all day. More widespread work from home has helped normalize this a bit (it’s an amazing privilege that I enjoy, that not everyone can, to be fair), but just don’t be late for meetings, meet your deadlines, and otherwise enjoy your life however you choose, kids or not.
Yeah, I was a little late the other day for my daughter’s appointment, but my coworker needed to duck out early another day because they had a maintenance guy going to their place.
Feels like there is more than just 1 answer…
There’s always some sort of excuse with them. Have to go pick him up from the bus stop, have to go pick him up from school
First part of my answer: when they have to, then they have to. Raising kids isn’t just always fun, it is hard work too. No need to make it even harder. If nobody has kids, humans dy out.
Why do you need to go pick up a prescription at lunch time, like why can’t you work through lunch?
The other part of the answer is just an asshole boss (can’t say it with nice words, sorry, not sorry). As soon as you find a better one, give this one a greeting from me with your shoe print on his backside.
Up until the last few years I’d hear the same argument about smokers taking breaks. Think the solution is to just keep heading ceos till things improve.
Pretty much agree with the last statement.
Disagree with the first statement. Given that the survival of our species is one reliant on us not only having children but also raising them in a way that improves our world and doesn’t make it worse.
The later of course is the Crux of the problem. A society that doesn’t encourage parents to be good parents and just shits on them instead is not a society that wants to survive.
Smokers are actively detrimental to their health, though, while families benefit society
No. Everyone should get the same treatment, as if they had children.
Exactly this. If you need to step away, take care of something, or just need a break, that ought to be entirely acceptable.
The reason it seems like parents “get away with it” is because they push limits, because they have a priority higher than anything else related to employment. I have to go get those kids. Is that report urgent? Cool, I’ll get to it as soon as the literal humans whose lives are depending on me for basic survival are safe at home. Are you going to fire me for parenting?
Yes and no. Everyone deserves the same benefits here. The issue isn’t why someone with kids gets a free pass, but why you don’t get the same offering. Why should someone have to work harder because they’re infertile, gay, or otherwise unable to reproduce?
But that’s on the capitalist, not on the worker. They should hire some more people to cover for whoever has emergencies.
I have a kid now and I understand the frustration of who didn’t have kids. The problem is that the frustration is to the wrong person.
100% ageed. We seriously need to normalise compassion for colleagues and pushing back on overwork and entitled clients. I’ve been a senior manager in IT for a decade and whether one of my reports’ kids is sick or someone just needs half a day out due to a migraine, I’ll let them do what they need to do. Turns or if you treat your colleagues like actual fucking human beings they actually appreciate you and often return the favour when the crisis has been dealt with.
Some of the horror stories in this thread of people phoning into zoom calls from the doctor’s office are insane. The world is not going to end just because Jerry couldn’t join this morning’s scrum or you had to move a call with a client.
“Oh but if underling #148 takes the afternoon off sick we won’t hit our weekly sales goal”. You know what Karen, firstly we sell receipt processing software, we are not saving any lives here yet a fucking grip. Secondly, if you deny them that time off they will be doing the bare minimum for the next quarter while they job hunt and inevitably leave.
I truly resent being forced to partake in this ridiculous system but for as long as I have to, I’m going to have the decency to try to protect my team the best I can.
I’m agreeing with you, the employer should offer the same leniency
Sounds to me like your company sucks and you’re taking out your frustration in people when kids. You are being absolutely unfair.
This might be unique to each parent as well. Some children do require extra attention and it is very difficult to managed work time in.
With most schools letting kids out around 3pm it’s not easy to keep the children occupied before the work day is finished. This leaves parents either on a work call with kids heard in the background or working late at night al week.
Think of it as if the person is a caretaker and a full time employee at your company. It’s basically two full times just that happen to overlap during the day.
I think calling it a privilege is really unfair but if the people are missing work and not meeting deadlines then management needs to step in and work out a solution. Work life balance is hard.
I’ve worked at a lot of different places and in my experience it varies a lot.
Some bosses cut everybody slack. Some bosses are jerks and cut nobody any slack. I would say most of them play favorites with their employees (some are blatant about it, some are more subtle). Some bosses cut the workers with kids more slack. Some bosses cut the workers with kids less slack.
Anecdotal evidence is like that. It’s emotionally compelling, but doesn’t really tell us what’s going on in the bigger picture.
Fuck no
Fuck no, if anything you should be punished for bringing children into this world. (The kids shouldn’t be, but damned if they aren’t going to be already anyway)
Some stupid ideas should just be kept to yourself.
I wish your parents hadn’t had children.
What u trying to say here?
Which part tripped you up? There’s too many people. The world sucks. Mostly because there’s too many people.
Having a child is morally equivalent to aggravated murder (you’re intentionally directly causing that person’s death, as well as decades of pain and suffering), so no, breeders shouldn’t be treated differently than any other murderer (though they probably aren’t more likely to murder an already conceived person than the average citizen, which isn’t saying much).
Of course some people might adopt, and therefore are merely enabling murderers, but they’re statistically insignificant, so I’d say it’s safe to assume that anyone who has children is either a murderer or a child trafficker.
In any case, no, fuck them, they might deserve to be treated differently, but definitely not in a positive way.
Dude I think you need a hug. No one chooses to live or die. But I’m glad I’m alive. Billions of years of physics have made us self perpetuating machines. There’s nothing wrong with not having kids. By the same token there’s nothing wrong with having kids. I’ve been through some pain in my life, less so than others I’m sure, but if I had to endure a thousand years of torture for five more minutes of petting my dog I would.
Both pain and pleasure are all temporary; but if we consider that our lives are on average less violent and longer than those who came before us; it seems that the good parts of life are winning. No all wrongs are righted, there are new evils and old evils.
Would you deny the hunter gatherer the joys of seeing their children’s first steps though in contrast we know their life will be short, uncomfortable, and painful? If not then I do not see how one can justify denying a modern family the same. We can argue about population control, but on a macro level it is not wrong to have children.
This reeks of incel
Step away from the 4Chan and back away slowly
Asking the big questions. Drag disagrees, but appreciates the energy you bring to the table. You make some good points that drag can’t argue with.
I’m starting to think drag is a bot
dude what the fuck
In a way, yes. Good healthy families are a core of a functioning society. However some examples you gave:
Why do you need a doctor’s appointment in the middle of the day?
Unless you’re in a society where doctors are available in the evening, this is a silly question
Why do you need to go pick up a prescription at lunch time
Again, depends on the pharmacist’s opening hours
like why can’t you work through lunch?
This is just stupid completely
They need the job a lot more. They have a little girl!
This makes sense, as again, someone with a child needs to provide for a family
Clearly they need it more than the the person who has a disabled spouse, because kids are way more important than an adult dependent!
This is stupid and a disabled spouse or any dependent should also be taken into consideration
We can’t fire this person, they have kids! Let’s choose someone who doesn’t have a family.
This makes sense. Some people need more money than others. That’s a basic fact. You or I would find more value in £1000 than a billionaire would.
Society flourishes when there are more middle class families flourishing. It is natural order that we should make society an easier environment to have a family in, rather than harder. Lest you end up like Japan or China with a declining population
My opinion on this, it fully depends.
I fully agree that people should be empathetic to people with kids because there are events that are outside of their control. This being said I don’t think they should be sympathetic to it. At the end of the day it isn’t that person’s problem that someone else has a kid, so therefore they shouldn’t be affected by it. Being said the world isn’t a perfect place and if you straight out don’t show any sympathy period you’re going to make enemies Having a kid should not be a get out of jail free card for any type of commitment, no if ands or buts.
Since you mentioned the professional World I’ll keep it more leaning towards that, a worker with a kid should not be getting preferable treatment to someone without a kid unless it is something that is directly out of that person’s control. A kid being sick is one thing, leaving early due to a doctor’s appointment is a whole different thing. They make sick days and they make vacation days for that, if the company is willing to work around your appointments that’s great, but that should be a treatment that they are given to everyone regardless of if you have a kid or not.
As for the lunch example that you gave, without getting too far off topic I firmly believe that that shouldn’t be happening. Regardless of if you have a kid or not. Depending on your contract you’re entitled to a lunch, and in most companies that lunch is unpaid. If I’m not being paid my company is not going to dictate what I’m doing. Lunch period Is very often the period that I use to be able to do the things like what you mentioned such as going to the store or going to the bank, that’s none of my employers buisness what I’m doing during that time.
in the professional World shit happens, managers will give preferable treatment to people they like and to the more efficient workers. Some managers also struggle to see the difference between empathy and sympathy and go a little too far in worker preference, this doesn’t mean that it’s right. This is a human trait, it’s against our nature to go against it. However as cold-hearted as it sounds employees life outside of the job should not be a problem of the employer. I’m not saying they should be the first one on The Chopping block, but I am saying that if that worker is less efficient, or ends up working less than higher other workers, the fact that they have a kid at home should not be taken into account.
Please note that this post is not including if your country has laws prohibiting certain actions. Such as in the US FMLA states that once the worker has been with the company for a year they can be entitled to up to 6 months of job protected unpaid leave as long as it’s being used by one of their eligible statuses, and one of these is if I remember my paperwork is caretaking of a dependant or immediate family
“A kid being sick is one thing”
You just wrecked your whole argument and put the flaw to OP and all the kid-free people here.
If your opinion is that “a kid being sick is one thing” then all we’re talking about here is degree of consideration, not whether to consider or not.
OP and others here are acting like having a kid is some get out of work card. “This one weird trick drives bosses insane!!”
It very well may be the case that parents get a little more grace, but chances are that the boss has kids too. Because it starts with “a kid being sick is one thing.”
By the same logic a disabled spouse doesn’t mean you get any additional consideration right?
Depends on the situation. If the parent(s) look absolutely done with life because their crotch goblins are draining the very life from them, I’d do shit like let them go ahead of me in line even if they have hella shit and I just have 1 thing. Let them get on their way and get some rest.
They already are. Months of parental leave, come back, make another child, get another couple of months off. If the money is it there to allow this, why can’t we get some kind of sabbatical
Depending on your state, you can! Is your parent dying of cancer and requires constant care? Did you get in a car accident that requires a multiple day hospital stay, and a wound the size of a dinner plate? You too can have a few weeks unpaid leave to recover. Thinking of maternity (or paternity) leave as a sabbatical is a joke.
I got exactly one day off for the funeral after a parent’s cancer but it’s not really comparable. Becoming a parent doesn’t exactly happen against your will. I may as well take a dog and claim I need time off to walk it.
zbyte64@awful.systems 5 weeks ago
I mean we should all be able to leave our desk to go pick up a prescription for ourselves or a family member. That’s the problem, not that parents are the only ones with the privilege.
The discrimination in regards to parents is real. In an interview I was asked if I would be able to keep up with a demanding schedule because I have kids. In my experience, women with children get the opposite end of that consideration than with men. This is messed up any way you slice it.