Why limit immigration?

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Submitted ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨Cryophilia@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨[deleted]⁩

Aside from racism. I mean economically/socially, what issues does too much immigration cause?

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xmunk@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Immigration only really causes economic issues with bullshit employee specific visas like H1Bs - those visas trap immigrants in powerless positions where they’re unable to advocate for fair compensation and drive down overall wages.

Everything else is fucking bullshit xenophobia.

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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Would more supply of workers (even naturalized ones) not drive down wages too?
  
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  - Acamon@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    An increase in supply would reduce wages, unless it also increases demand. If you think about wages in cities vs rural areas, you’ll see that most of the time more people = more economic activity = higher wages.
    
    Where this breaks down, is if there’s barriers of entry that prevent immigrants from participating in the economy fully. If immigrants aren’t allowed to legally work or start business (as happens with some asylum seekers or ‘illegal’ immigrants) then they are forced to compete over a small pool of off-book / cash-in-hand jobs, which could see a reduction in wages without a significant increase in overall economic activity.
    
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  - xmunk@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Eh, it doesn’t really seem like that tends to happen… economies are weird and if you keep adding people you tend to just get more and more service jobs.
    
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HelixDab2@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Mostly to avoid having infrastructure and social safety networks overwhelmed. Yes, you will also see wages be depressed by large-scale immigration, but that’s something that could–in theory–be controlled by strengthening unions and labor regulations. That’s not where we are though; right now, unions and labor regulations are fairly weak, and are being gutted by courts even as the NLRB tries to strengthen them.

Housing takes time to build, and good city planning is necessary to ensure that cities are sustainable rather than being sprawls. (Not many cities do that, BTW; it’s usually, “oh, we’ll just add another lane to the existing 20 lane interstate”). Given that we’re currently in a situation where there’s insufficient low- and middle-income high density housing, and few companies are willing to build any more, competition for most of the immigrants that we’re seeing–people that are trying to get away from deep economic woes–would be fierce for housing.

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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  and few companies are willing to build any more
  
  I don’t think this is actually true. At least in my area, developers would LOVE to build condos and apartments all over the place, but local laws are holding them back.
  
  I suppose even in a perfectly willing area that upgrades its infrastructure to support more people, you don’t want to move people in too quickly, before that infrastructure is available. But it’s easy to see that become a self fulfilling prophecy: we don’t take immigrants because we don’t have the infrastructure, and we don’t build the infrastructure because there’s no demand for it.
  
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  - Phil_in_here@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I don’t think anyone wants to make a brand new condo and try to full it full of fresh immigrants that other businesses are exploiting to pay less.
    
    They want to develop 1 set of condos they can sell for $300k+ rather than 3 sets for $100k
    
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  - HelixDab2@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    AFAIK, the issue around me is largely profitability. You can buy up acres if land, chop it up into 1/2ac parcels, quickly build cheap “luxury houses”, and sell them for 2-3x your costs, easily earning $200k+ per house sold (“Coming soon, from the low $400s…!”). And it’s all with fairly minimal regulation, compared to building high-density housing in existing cities. Compare and contrast that with building low- and middle-income high-density housing, where you’re going to end up managing it as apartments (probably not condos; that’s uncommon in my area); that means that you’re in the red for a larger number of years before you pay back the initial costs of construction, since the profitability comes through rents.
    
    Maybe I’m wrong; all I can comment on is the kind of building that I’m seeing in my area, and the way that the closest city–which was originally about 90 minutes away–is now alarmingly close.
    
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weew@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
It can suppress wages.

Immigrants often are expected to work for less money. After all, they usually immigrate from an economically worse country, so they don’t expect to land top tier wages.

You keep filling in minimum wage jobs with an endless supply of immigrants, then there is never a worker shortage and never any incentive to raise the bar.

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- Sgt_choke_n_stroke@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  If the company makes products the workers can’t buy, then who buys the products?
  
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- TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  This is dubious. Immigration can have massive positive benefits to the target economy.
  
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  - weew@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Yeah, it pumps GDP numbers up. By having more people to do work.
    
    Not by increasing GDP per capita.
    
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Kaboom@reddthat.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Immigrants are often effectively scabs. They work for less, take more abuse, that sort of thing. And It’s a lot harder to form a union when half the workers don’t even speak the same language.

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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  They definitely need strong worker protections and a force to represent them.
  
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Bigfish@lemmynsfw.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
There’s also the carrying capacity of the area they’re emigrating to. Housing in particular is one aspect of it that’s already very very tight in most of the Western world. Even without immigration per se, this problem plays out every time a major company moves headquarters to a new city/state. Lots of new people, and a very slow to respond housing stock means surging prices. Schools and other social services also get stretched - but they’re much quicker to respond to the demand.

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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  This might be me projecting, but I think lack of housing stock is driven by NIMBY policies intentionally restricting stock, and not by some unchangeable market force. It doesn’t have to be a limiting factor, at least not as much as at present.
  
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  - eatthecake@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    When i was a kid even poor people had a 3 bedroom house on a quarter acre block. I know someone who rents the balcony of a 2 bedroom flat and shares with 7 other people., all of them are migrants or international students. Oddly enough, i live in a house that was built in a backyard. A cheap, crappy new investment property made to capitalise on the housing crisis. We’ve had more than two dozen tradesmen visit in a couple of years so i wonder how that investment’s working out. This is not progress.
    
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  - visor841@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    In the long-term yes, but in the short-term, housing takes time to build, so there’s going to be a lag. During that lag, it can cause problems.
    
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pumpkinseedoil@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
There only are so many resources for them. Here in many European countries the main issue (I think) is that with the current numbers we fail to teach them all our language (it’s simply not possible without having more language teachers available, and apart from needing those teachers that also needs more money). Without knowing the language their professional development is massively hindered, causing many to remain lower class, and causing disproportionately high crime rates among certain groups.

This leads to further problems: In the big cities there already are schools where people who speak the local language are a minority (for example in a primary school near me they have two classes for each grade (1-4) for children who can’t speak German yet and one class for all grades together for German speaking children).

So guess what people do: They go to a district with less immigrants, while the districts with many immigrants keep getting more immigrants (since cost of living is low there and as pointed out earlier many struggle to leave lower class). We’re re-creating segregation. This makes it even harder for those people to leave lower class, since they have no networking opportunities but only know others from lower class instead.

Even the left wing parties are now saying that we have to reduce immigration and instead integrate immigrants better.

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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  That’s a good point. Maybe a more even distribution of immigrants would help.
  
  It’s a little strange to me because the US has no official language. My poor grasp of Spanish and Chinese is actually a hinderance here in California.
  
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  - GBU_28@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    That’s a problem though, you can’t dictate where people live, within the country.
    
    Also, the US has a primary language, not a federally official language. The same issues of disadvantage occur if you can’t speak English.
    
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- TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  So the reason to limit immigration is because you fail to teach them the language? How is that a reason, and not just one form of limitation?
  
  Instead, why not ask: why not invest more into supporting integration programs? Because immigration tends to have hugely positive impacts on the target society. The only reason not to invest in it would be… 🤔 some kind of fear…
  
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  - pumpkinseedoil@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    The reason is lack of ressources. Integrating them properly works well as long as there are enough ressources, but when too many come in a too short timeframe it sadly does not work (also makes it much harder for them to get proficient at German since they can live in their own bubble and just talk in their native language).
    
    (And we have many ressources, but we (Austria) took the most immigrants per capita of all central European countries, even significantly more than Germany which is known for having taken so many. We really are trying.)
    
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- mayo@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Ethnic enclaves - tons of these in Canada.
  
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  - kent_eh@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    It happens in any country that has immigrants.
    
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BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
In Canada it’s causing a huge housing crisis. Lots of newcomers do not have the finances for what rent is here either so end up in limbo.

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- kameecoding@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Yes but that’s a side effect of this en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-family_zoning
  
  Which is also screwing over regular people and also causes you to have shittier cities with suburban sprawl
  
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  - gerbler@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    It isn’t just housing it’s infrastructure in general. Governments are happy to bring in more bodies to fill jobs and pay taxes but don’t bother to plan accordingly and infrastructure takes a long time to build leading to a lagging effect.
    
    Hospitals, transit, housing, etc. It’s all being overwhelmed right now.
    
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- whotookkarl@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Sounds like too many landlords, not too many immigrants.
  
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  - Mossheart@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Porque no los dos?
    
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- FarraigePlaisteach@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  The irony of a nation of colonial land thieves complaining about immigration …
  
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  - Surp@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    To add to your point…every nation stole or was stolen from someone else at some point. I always laugh at this argument. No one’s giving anything back that they were born into and didn’t literally take themselves. Are we going to find Henry the Viiis ancestors and make them answer for his barbaric ways? No. Egyptian pharaohs who enslaved countless people and god knows what else? No.
    
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  - BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    They sure should.
    
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zipzoopaboop@lemmynsfw.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Housing is already unsustainable, more people means more demand for it

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- draneceusrex@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Housing in even semi-desirable locations is already unaffordable for most Americans. How would immigrants, considering the low wages they are limited to, make this worse?
  
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  - zipzoopaboop@lemmynsfw.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Smaller partitions, roommates, families in single bedrooms, landlords exploiting ignorance to skirt rights and maintenance etc
    
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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Very good point. Having a local government that is willing to allow more housing to be built is absolutely necessary if you want to let immigrants in.
  
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  - gencha@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Building houses is probably generally allowed, but not an easy solution.
    
    Someone who migrates to another country, to work there in a regular job, can get a regular apartment. But everyone wants to live where the living conditions are best. You can’t build infinite housing in those locations, and the increased demand drives prices.
    
    Someone who seeks asylum is in an entirely different situation, and housing them is a different challenge. Building a house in a nice place costs 10x what it costs in a remote country region. But now people have nobody to integrate with and less social options.
    
    Any house being built costs money. Building houses for people who are still in search of employment is a bad investment. Nobody wants to build those houses. They want to build the nice houses in the nice places that will gather lots of rent. If you want to have the houses anyway, because maybe the people are already here, you probably have to use taxes for it. Some citizens will never be able to accept that, creating conflict.
    
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  - zipzoopaboop@lemmynsfw.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    It’s the only non racist rationale I can think of, and potentially solvable if local governments and NIMBY laws didn’t suck so much
    
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peereboominc@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
It depends on the kind of immigrant. You have students, high educated workforce, people that flee from war/not safe to stay country and people that just want a (economic) better life.

I think too much of any immigration can cause maybe an issue that the majority of people are new and that the culture (how do we interact with each other, what is acceptable behavior etc) has not settled.

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Noel_Skum@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
It’s easier for most people to believe that different coloured or dressed folk, or those that look the same but speak differently, are the reason your life is difficult. It couldn’t possibly be the people that look and sound like you that are your problem. In the UK it’s been said before that a white British guy in a factory job has more in common with a Jamaican bricklayer or a Polish chamber maid than they do with Boris Johnson. I believe that position.

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fart_pickle@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
It’s a complex and polarising issue. The main problem is that some, sometimes most, of immigrants don’t want to assimilate. They are creating ghettos, don’t respect local laws. Other issue is that governments prefer to spend tax payer money for accommodating immigrants instead of solving nation’s issues.

I wouldn’t limit immigration per se. I would limit unchecked illegal immigration and spend more money on assimilating immigrants that want to contribute to a country they moved into.

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- Adderbox76@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  The main problem is that some, sometimes most, of immigrants don’t want to assimilate. They are creating ghettos, don’t respect local laws.
  
  Generalisations like this are the very reason it’s a polarising issue. Opinions like yours generally derive from “observation” and “gut feeling”. Which by definition is completely anecdotal and harmful when it begins to be applied to millions of people all at once.
  
  Betsy from insert town here sees an immigrant couple down the street in her home-town keeping to themselves and not really wanting to take part in the community. She’s talking on the phone to nosy-nessie the town busybody who says “oh…you know…my aunt said the same thing about her insert culture neighbours.” And then all of a sudden, that’s just “how those people are”…all of them…everywhere.
  
  Maybe this couple is just a little embarrassed about their english skills and want to strengthen them more before going into public everywhere, which comes across as shy. Maybe they’re just private…who knows. But suddenly…“it’s just how (those people) are”, becomes the anecdotal “truth”.
  
  It’s wrong, it’s dangerous, and the fact that you don’t even grasp the irony of your own comment is telling in a lot of ways.
  
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  - Melvin_Ferd@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    No unfortunately. There is plenty of evidence of immigrants building their own justice systems and authorities under the radar of their new countries because it goes against the freedoms and expectations.
    
    We shouldn’t ignore that and not talk about it.
    
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courval@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
The “shot in the foot” effect when you accept immigrants from conservative/racist countries and they and - most likely - the next generation will vote right wing which more accurately mirrors those conservative/racist beliefs.

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SorteKanin@feddit.dk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Check Swedens problems recently with unchecked immigration.

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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Or you could tell me about them? That’s why I asked the question.
  
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  - SorteKanin@feddit.dk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Well long story short sweden has had quite relaxed immigration law for a long time and is now dealing with major crime problems as violent gangs cause shootings in the cities.
    
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HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Aside from racism, it is usually the belief that the new immigrants will either be economic competition for those with jobs or a drain on welfare.

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- kent_eh@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  That combined with a lack of available housing are the answers I see most often.
  
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  - zbyte64@awful.systems ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Gee, if only we could find the labor to build some extra housing. Must be that the immigrants taking our jobs just don’t want to work these days.
    
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- WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  in my country that’s exactly what is happening, they are taking the simpler jobs for much cheaper, and lot of our “native” people has/had jobs like this.
  
  ironically, this country is among the loudest in anti-immigration in the EU, all the while they are immigrating people from neighboring countries exactly for cheap labor.
  
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leftzero@lemmynsfw.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

Aside from racism.

No such thing. It’s racism all the way down, no matter what colour they try to paint it.

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- LifeOfChance@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I’m curious how so? Wouldn’t an influx of people immigrating into any country cause a dramatic economic shift? I’m aware racism plays a part of the selection process but I can’t imagine it’s the sole reason for such strict control over immigration.
  
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  - TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Nations always have people coming in and out. Immigration isn’t inherently about the influx.
    
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bear@lemmynsfw.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Many people believe that too much immigration causes the destruction of a nation or of an ethnic group by means such as the disintegration of its political and social institutions, of its culture, language, national feelings, religion, and its economic existence.

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- Nemo@slrpnk.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  OP said other than racism.
  
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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Ok, but how?
  
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  - HKPiax@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I mean, people want to keep their customs and traditions, so immigrants will bring their own customs and traditions, and if you have lots of immigrants, their customs and traditions will become the main ones in that place.
    
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RightHandOfIkaros@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Regarding potential societal issues:

When multiple cultures mix together, one of two things can happen:

The cultures mesh well and either coexist or mutually mix into something new

The cultures do not mesh well and this leads to all sorts of problems, especially increased crime

The second usually happens when both cultures place opposite value in something. For example, one culture places a high value on self and the other places a high value on being in a group, this can lead to a divide between cultures. Eventually, the resentment each group has for each other will lead to violence and other sorts of crime. One culture may think “I made the money for myself,” while the other thinks ,“we should all share the money.” If people don’t learn how to get along, you can probably see how that would increase criminal activity. In most cases, it is usually the expectation that the immigrant adapt to the culture of the new place they have moved to, rather than the new place’s home residents being expected to adapt to every immigrants different country cultures.

It also isn’t good when immigrants enter a new country and do not know the laws of the country they have entered. They may commit crimes that could have been legal wherever they came from, but now someone may be a victim to a crime and the immigrant did not know. Now, usually immigrants that legally enter a country do learn about the basic laws of the country and the basic culture, but ones that enter a country illegally may know nothing about the place they are in. They may continue to act the same as they did in their previous home, which may have very different laws, leading to further divide.
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- jpreston2005@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  It’s a racist lie that increased immigration leads to increased crime.
  
  The mythical tie between immigration and crime - a Stanford Study
  
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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  In most cases, it is usually the expectation that the immigrant adapt to the culture of the new place they have moved to, rather than the new place’s home residents being expected to adapt to every immigrants different country cultures.
  
  Yeah this topic is really showing my American bias. Or rather Californian. I’m used to a fluid, adaptable culture.
  
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  - TimewornTraveler@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I would be really hesitant to trust the answers here. How many people responding on Lemmy actually have an educated position on how these systems work? Because I can tell you that there are some fields where Lemmy users are just plain ignorant, while displaying all the confidence of certainty. Especially when you include Europeans on the topic of race…
    
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taiyang@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Historically, US actually was quite welcoming of immigration, including from Mexico. It tends to ebb and flow. I was taught by an economist that typically you open the flood gates when you want the labor, while restricting it when you don’t. To him, labor works just like goods in supply/demand curves. Flooding a market can drive down value of labor, etc., which can be bad for local workers. Obviously it’s a little more complex, but that’s the jist.

The trouble is, with globalization, one must wonder if that S/D curve is still valid. I imagine it is in some sectors, but in others, those jobs have been outsourced. If this is a bigger strain on demand, then it’s better to keep immigration on lock. That would at least help explain why it’s so hostile currently, but I’m just thinking out loud. I don’t necessarily agree with the economist approach.

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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  Flooding a market can drive down value of labor, etc., which can be bad for local workers.
  
  That makes sense, but in the long run/bigger picture, having a bigger employable workforce results in more consumers, which means a growing economy.
  
  I’m not well versed enough in macroeconomics to explain how to promote the economy without lowering wages, but surely it can be done. “They’re taking our jobs” just sounds way too reductive.
  
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  - taiyang@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    It actually has more to do with training and education. In developed nations, people get more education and the result is a larger void in the low skill labor force who are employed by them. Ironically, more education results in lower wages for white collar work and higher wages for blue collar work, haha. Unfortunately we rarely talk about education, economics and immigration in the same breath, so it’s rarely addressed in politics.
    
    Automation also adds a wrinkle, as low skill labor has been automated with technology. It’s credited as one of the major contributions to the wage gap, as efficiency is a boon to the owning class, not the working class. But I digress…
    
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SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
From an economic perspective, it’s mostly positive. Raising a child is expensive, and those costs go on for about 20 years before you have a person that’s economically productive. Most Immigrants are adults and can join the workforce immediately. The economic costs of their childhood was paid by the country they came from. It’s a negative for the country they came from, this is refereed to as a “brain drain.” But for their new country, it’s like a tax paying worker just appeared out of nowhere.

As for the economic negatives, the big one is housing. Too much immigration all at once can result in a shortage of housing. It can also put stress on public services and infrastructure. Businesses may not have the capacity to serve a larger population. These things can adapt of course, but you can’t instantly build a house and you can’t instantly expand public services, etc. So you might want to limit immigration so an area can adapt to all of the various economic needs of a larger population. An immigrant will work and pay taxes and contribute to the local economy, so long term it’s all positives, but there can be a lot of short term problems if a population grows to rapidly.

As for social… well I’m not really much of a sociologist, but just from I can see, people who already live in an area might be uncomfortable being around people of a different culture. Might say crazy things like “They’re eating the dogs!” Yeah that’s crazy, but it is a problem. Not caused by the immigrants themselves, but it’s a problem that does happen when there’s immigration.

But there’s social benefits. Can learn from a new culture. May get some new options for restaurants to go to.

Generally the young will enjoy more social benefit (going out to the different restaurants and learning about different cultures), but the older people will tend to be uncomfortable with it. But that’s just the tendency.

So overall I’d say you do need limits on immigration to mitigate the short term issues, but it’s all positives in the long term.

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EnderMB@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
In my opinion, country-based immigration paired with needs-based works really well.

Ultimately, many of the best parts of the culture of a place are because of what people brought with them years ago. Some of the best restaurants are because someone in India moved to the UK, and then moved to the US and brought the culture of Curry Mile or Brick Lane with them, or because a community of Greek railroad workers decided to set up bakeries using their known recipes that all the locals love.

The same often goes for business. Look at the rise of Aldi and Lidl, and how cheap produce and great workers rights will suddenly make local supermarkets look in bewilderment at how markets they once dominated are being torn away from them.

IMO, if you have skills to offer, you should be welcome. I’m currently in the process of moving to the US on a high-skilled visa, and it is mad how one country will require thousands in legal fees and 24+ month waits while a country next door will say “Shit, you can teach?! Come join us! If you want to stay permanently that’s fine!”

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Flax_vert@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Housing, job availability and potential erasure of culture. I think it depends on what migrants you let in though. Also some groups forming bubbles and refusing to integrate as well.

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menas@lemmy.wtf ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
There is no or a very small impact of regulation on the number of exiled people coming in country. However, making more people illegal let bosses exploit them more. Those workers could not sue their boss because of those regulations, and most conservative unions rely unfortunately too much on legal solutions.

So if a country couldn’t limit immigrations, it could exploit more people and bybass human right with regulations against exiled people.

Yes, this is only positive for far-right bosses, and awful for others. But guess who decide in a capitalist economy ?

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- Professorozone@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Not sure why you were downvoted, but this is a good point. In fact, I find it interesting that the US hasn’t stopped pretending and just lifted the law against hiring illegal immigrants.
  
  It’s the main argument on how to stop illegal immigration, no one seems to talk about. Instead of building walls, jailing people or even shooting them for crossing the border, they should crack down on the people who hire them. To me it’s just conservatives admitting that their opinions are just racist.
  
  Sorry if you the conversation was about Europe. Just relating it to home.
  
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frostmore@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
just have a look at the EU and also Germany with some crazies wanting shariah law…this is Germany we are talking about,with their histories and what not

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superkret@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
If you provide real social security for anyone on the country and don’t limit immigration at all, you attract people who aren’t willing or able to work and want to live off social security.

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- norimee@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Poppycock.
  
  It’s the same argument than if you provide social security people don’t want to work anymore. Its classist and racist.
  
  Congrats. You hit two right wing propaganda points with one scentence.
  
  Feel free to prove me wrong with reliable sources and real numbers.
  
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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I’d love to see data on that.
  
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  - superkret@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    You won’t cause there isn’t a single country in the world which doesn’t limit immigration, and also not a single country in the world which provides solid social security to all its inhabitants (and not only its citizens).
    
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jeena@piefed.jeena.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
It depends a bit on how you define immigration. Is what the Spaniards and English did to the Americas immigration or something else?

If the influx of a different culture is so big that it displaces you and your children like it did to the Native Americans, then I understand that you'd want to stop it.

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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  Is what the Spaniards and English did to the Americas immigration
  
  Uhh
  
  No.
  
  Weird place for your mind to even go.
  
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  - pmk@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    What would you call it instead?
    
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PlzGivHugs@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Immigration in excess and esspecially in combination with exploititive or unenforced labour laws and mismanagement of other resources and infrastructure, can decrease wages, and cause shortage of key resources. For example, if there is no new housing being built, but there is very high immigration levels, housing prices will rise, and availability will be limited.

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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Well sure, but then why not build more houses?
  
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  - PlzGivHugs@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Usually because those responsible for regulating housing are heavily invested in it, and like the fact that high immigration is pushing prices up. As usual, most things lead back to corrupt governments and capitalism.
    
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  - ackthxbye@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Typically these quickly built housing is of such crappy quality that only immigrants will want to live there (because they can’t afford anything else anyway). This leads to the development of ghettos, with leads to the typical problems from crappy schools (that traps the kids in the lowest social class) to no cultural assimilation.
    
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chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Infrastructure is a large issue. Border towns can become saturated, which will reduce living conditions, and when immigrants move to larger cities, they can often have trouble finding places to live. A lot of this can be because of a communication barrier. Sometimes that is because there are too few to translate, but there can also be educational issues. As much maligned as the US education system is, it is better than some others, and when your culture eschews school for an early start at earning a paycheck, communication in any language becomes a challenge.

Many issues can be overcome, or at least minimized, by compassionate workers, which many that work with immigrants are, but there isn’t enough funding to get compassionate people where they are most needed. Supporting increased budgets at the border isn’t always about putting guns on the border, it can be about improving the infrastructure that helps get people where they need to be in more efficient ways. I’m starting to ramble, though, and I think I’ve given a partial answer to your question.

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- Keeponstalin@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  From an economical standpoint, immigrants bring in more taxes and labor, which can go towards infrastructure and social infrastructure like education and housing
  
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  - chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Just gotta make sure those taxes are going to the right place.
    
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Phegan@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Racism

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small44@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
They eat people pets \s

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ricdeh@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
If immigration leads to more unemployment, then that is an economic problem, especially in the hypothetical case where the social benefits system is getting more and more strained by an influx of unemployed people. But generally, I think that you can expect that the immigrants will soon find employment. Besides that, there’s the cultural aspect that @jet@hackertalks.com mentioned. You could also make the point that the country’s infrastructure is more and more stressed as the population grows, but that is fixable and potentially counteracted by the labour potential of the immigrants themselves (i.e., qualified immigrant work forces can make a large-scale infrastructure overhaul possible that will lead to greater national capacities and a net benefit for the entire population).

Aside from these things, I would argue that most of the other reasons boil down to xenophobia or racism.

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- Cryophilia@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  but that is fixable and potentially counteracted by the labour potential of the immigrants themselves
  
  That’s how I would deal with immigration in my power fantasies. I’m sure in reality it’s much more complicated than that, but the basic idea of bringing in immigrants and using their labor to build more infrastructure (and paying them a fair wage for it) seems sound. Coupled with pro-housing policies and free education - not necessarily college but trade school and language classes.
  
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