Is it wrong to not have a disabled child solely to avoid forcing the child to suffer their whole life?

Comments

• lukewarm_ozone@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You have no moral obligation to have children at all, even if they’ll predictably have a happy life. So if their life will instead be predictably horrible life (or ruin the lives of the people around them - plenty of severe mental disabilities seem much less horrible for the people themselves than for their caretakers), it’s very reasonable to avoid it.

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  • einkorn@feddit.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    While I’d also support my partner in terminating a pregnancy with a disabled child, please reconsider your wording.

    A disabled person’s life isn’t necessarily horrible, and neither will they necessarily ruin someone else’s life by being born.

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    • lukewarm_ozone@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I agree that there’s a lot of space between “considered disabled” and “horrible life”, but OP said “suffer their whole life” which I associated with the latter.

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    • deur@feddit.nl ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Their wording is fine, you have some internal biases to iron out.

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  • foenkyfjutschah@programming.dev ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    plenty of severe mental disabilities seem much less horrible for the people themselves than for their caretakers

    in germany we consider this as an original national-socialist thought and expressing such would disqualify you in public discourse.

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    • SorteKanin@feddit.dk ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Source? Or is it just your impression?

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• Croquette@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  No it is not wrong. Abortion, even of a healthy fetus, is not wrong and you shouldn’t let anyone tell you otherwise.

  In states with heavy abortion restrictions, there is a surge of dumpster babies.

  Instead of bringing a clump of cell to term only to abandon it, might as well just get rid of it altogether.

  And let’s not forget that the lives of the immediate family are also impacted negatively.

  Taking care of a child is a lot of work. Taking care of a child that has a disability is much more work.

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• november@lemmy.vg ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It’s never wrong to avoid having children for any reason.

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• LovableSidekick@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  If “not have” means abort, I don’t think it’s ever wrong not to have a baby. People should only have kids if they want them and can commit to being good parents for the long haul. “Maybe it will save our marriage” and “God says so” are equally shitty reasons to have kids.

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• theywilleatthestars@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You are not morally obligated to reproduce under any circumstances.

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• Maggoty@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  This isn’t a question with a binary answer. This is the kind of question you talk about with your doctors, your partner, and people whose moral compass you trust. There’s a lot of factors. For example are we talking about a disability that’s largely survivable or a disability that means they will die as an infant? Do you have the financial and mental means to provide the extra care? Do you already have children? Is the pregnancy expected to be more dangerous than normal? How far along is the fetus?

  You can end up on either side of this question and be a good person. This is one of those things that nobody gets to judge you for.

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• TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Ultimately it’s your choice to have a baby or not and it’s absolutely moral to choose to not have a child if you don’t want one.

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  • mouserat@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Completely agree, but my guess is they want one, but struggle with the information about the health status. Without knowing what the issue is, it’s hard to say what my decision would be. But “your body, your choice” is always true and nobody should be allowed to condemn you for your choice.

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• cRazi_man@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  That’s an incredibly complicated question with no single answer. If you’re looking to delve into this area then I’d say your interest will take you to reading phiosophy and medical ethics. If you are interested, then this is one of the best podcasts for medical ethics that I’ve found.

  As for your question, it’s probably best broken down to at least 2 initial questions:

  • Who decides what is “disability”?

  Very poor eyesight or cataracts used to be debilitating. Now anyone with access to basic healthcare would not even consider mentioning those as health problems. Downs syndrome used to be a teerrible diagnosis, now people with Downs syndrome mostly have a good quality of life. Many deaf people would not consider themselves disabled at all. Does it matter if someone is in a wheelchair, and is happy, fulfilled and contributing to society? Is losing a part of a finger a disability? How about losing a whole finger, or 3 fingers?

  • Who decides what is “suffering”?

  Plenty of fully able people are suffering. Plenty of medically limited people are perfectly happy and fulfilled. A person who has the maximum intellectual intellectual capacity of a 2 year old and no ability to communicate, but who smiles and laughs and claps could be said to be happy and not suffering. If a pregnancy scan shows a baby is going to be born without a foot, can the parents or doctors decide that’s a life not worth living? Even if someone is suffering, how much suffering is too much? If a person is in endless pain, severely limited function and unable to survive off a ventilator; then can parents or doctors decide that’s not enough suffering to end their life?

  There are loads more questions that will come up. How do you even find out your child is going to be disabled? Is it reasonable for everyone to ask for genetic tests before the baby is born, and abort if they don’t like the answer? Just because we have a ability to test or treat a condition, doesn’t mean we should use those tools without considering why. Your question also is particularly about having a child, and you need to seperate the suffering of the child from the inconvenience and suffering of the parents/family.

  This is a very deep rabbit hole to go down and it ends up in all sorts of places (eugenics, euthenasia, abortion, resource allocation, the value of a life, etc).

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  • lukewarm_ozone@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This is a great comment. I’ll add that anyone thinking about disability ethics should read Two Arms and a Head, lest they start taking too seriously the idea that disabilities have no effect on quality of life.

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  • Rivalarrival@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Alternatively, it’s an incredibly simple question, with an incredibly simple answer:

    It’s your business, not mine. Do what you want for the reasons you want.

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• GraniteM@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I personally know a person with a child who was born with profound physical and mental disabilities. She’s a dear sweet caring person, and she shared an emotionally devastating story about how she had her first “conversation” with her daughter when said daughter was in her early twenties, which took the form of the daughter being able to indicate, through extraordinary effort, that she preferred to be read one story instead of another.

  For her, this was a deeply rewarding moment, the ability to have any kind of deliberate interaction with her daughter, after nearly two decades of struggle and effort. She clearly loves her daughter. I would never try to take anything away from her in that regard.

  However. When my wife got pregnant we had very serious conversations about the potential for birth defects and how we were prepared for her to have an abortion if serious defects were found. We talked about the quality of life of a human being we were bringing into existence, and how no one should ever have to feel trapped by their own body, and what our experience of being parents was going to be like.

  Our daughter was born without any issues at all. In fact she’s bright and friendly and less destructive than we might have expected… and still being a parent is easily the most intense and difficult project of my entire life, mentally, physically, and emotionally. Nobody should ever have any reservations about being a parent for any reason at all, and if there are factors that you can control to make that decision easier one way or the other, then you should absolutely take control of them.

  All of which is to say, no there is absolutely no moral issue with choosing not to deliberately create a person with genetic birth defects. The choice to become a parent is the most important and consequential choice anyone can make. Make it in exactly the way that you would want to make it, and in no other way whatsoever.

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• Metz@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I think the other way around is wrong and immoral. Forcing a child to suffer their whole life is pure evil in my book. If you have the opportunity to prevent this, it is your duty to do so.

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• muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  No. I would argue your morally obliged to not have a disabled child (if possible). But then people would say thats just eugenics with extra steps.

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  • Rivalarrival@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    If your decision to abort is because the fetus will be a redhead, that’s “planned breeding”, not “eugenics”.

    The sine qua non of eugenics is a state mandate.

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    • muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Semantics. Also sounds like eugenics with exrra steps, the state cant mandate but it can provide incentives. Ie is china paying certain races for having children and not other races “planned breeding” or “subtle eugenics”?

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  • 3dogsinatrenchcoat@slrpnk.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    this is kind of ridiculous. do you realize how broad a term “disability” is? my parents have poor eyesight and need glasses. are they bad people for having kids when they knew we would inherit that?

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    • muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      this is kind of ridiculous. do you realize how broad a term “disability” is?

      Well op didnt define it but i would assume everyone draws the line at a different place for the purposes of this thought experiment.

      are they bad people for having kids when they knew we would inherit that?

      Thats something between ur parents and god (and by god i dont literaly mean i god i mean whatever morality or personal philosophy they hold themselves to).

      If u want/can go ask them what they think about the idea i recon it would be interesting to hear.

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• ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  To be honest I think having children when you have a family history of disability is the most selfish thing a human can do.

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  • angrystego@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Family history of disability is not a necessary prerequisite of having a disabled child, though.

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    • ThatWeirdGuy1001@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      It’s not necessary but personally if I knew my family had a history of any disabilities I’d never have kids. I know there’s a base level of chance to begin with but being okay with a higher chance, especially if the disability is prevalent enough to be known about, is incredibly selfish.

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    • GrammarPolice@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      They’re probably referring to having a child when it is genetically predisposed to abnormalities due to whatever genetics the parents have.

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    • Fades@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      And you tell your child when they’re suffering from a life long birth defect/disability that there was only a chance they could’ve ended up trapped like that.

      I’m sure that will help them feel better and the rest of their life coping will be so much easier!

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  • Fades@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Exactly this, you know the child will likely inherit and suffer but the parents want a kid so all that suffering the kid will be forced to endure and be trapped in a living hell… well that’s just fine!

    To a lesser extent I see having kids in a world like this as similarly selfish.

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    • Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      This view differs from simple eugenics? I don’t yet see how.

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• lurklurk@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Some percentage of people will think it is, but as I recall it, that percentage drops dramatically when people are actually faced with the decision themselves, so make your own decision if you’re unlucky enough to have to

  There are already natural miscarriages for many unviable fetuses, so in a sense diagnosis and abortion is just a way to help that be more accurate

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• 1ns1p1d@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  If it’s a disability you can diagnose prior to birth, no.

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• spankmonkey@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Depends on the disability.

  Not having a child based only on the child being deaf (who shouldn’t really suffer, but could if never given support) is very different than not having a child because they have something that will cause them immense pain and a death within days or weeks of being born. Then there is a massive spectrum between the two.

  It depends, but some a child can also suffer for their entire life if they are born healthy but abused and neglected there will always be reasons for having or not having a child. Having the choice whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term is the important thing, and being denied that choice is wrong.

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• jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I don’t know why I’d want to set up a person to live like that.

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  • MelonYellow@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yeah simply put - if I was the kid and I was able to comprehend being born at a permanent disadvantage, and I knew you had a choice in the matter… Hell yeah I’d be mad!

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• greencactus@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I would urge people to be careful how much we think disabled people (might) suffer. My mom is colorblind (she sees the whole world in shades of white or black), and her vision strength is 5% or lower. She is definitely disabled and receives a pension for not being able to work. Still, she managed to build up some form of existence: she managed to start an education and became a masseuse, and she gave birth to me and my brother. If my grandma would’ve known that my mom will not be able to live on her own, she maybe wouldn’t have proceeded with the pregnancy. Then I wouldn’t be here either.

  My conclusion: what do you define by disability? If it is a chronic disease which means your child will be in pain their whole life, it is very different than having a child who isn’t able to “function” normally, but isn’t inherently in pain. Over my mom I met a lot of other disabled people, and most of them have built up an existence and lead a life. My mom wouldn’t agree that she is forced to suffer her whole life.

  No one is forced to bear out a child. You are not morally responsible to bear out a child, in my opinion. But we shouldn’t assume we know how this person will grow and develop during their lives.

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• fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I dislike the use of the term “wrong” in this case immensely.

  Everyone ought to be able to decide what to do with their own body, free from judgement. That includes whether to grow a fetus, and the decision making process is completely irrelevant.

  It’s wrong to opine what’s right and wrong regarding someone else’s bodily autonomy.

  If the question was, “if you were pregnant and you were told your child was going to be severely disabled, would you seek an abortion” the answer is “most likely”.

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• bitchkat@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  No, its the moral thing to do.

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• stoly@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You are showing empathy and that is a good thing. Not wrong.

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• MissJinx@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  If you are not one of the bilionairs in the world your child will suffer, the difference is just if more or less. Why have children at all? So they can work like slaves until they are too old? Don’t do that to your kid

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• zephorah@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  This is a deeply personal question only you can answer.

  The other piece is impact on other children.

  I was privy to one situation in which the mother told the father she would divorce him if he did not agree to place their heavy needs child in a home. Why? Their two other children didn’t know their father and the entire household revolved around 1 person instead of the family unit except on private outings between the two non-special needs kids and the mom, who scrambled to give them normal kid experiences. Caring for this needs child became all the father did when at home. Sometimes caring was sitting in the room with the heavy needs child, a child content in a bed, unable to walk or communicate (congenital) to the exclusion of the other children.

  We have all probss as blah read those Reddit threads from kids who were screaming into a thread about hating their special needs sibling as well.

  Consideration needs to be made for every member of the family unit. And healthcare being what it is lately, outside the home care options may not be as available today.

  Nothing about this is easy and there is no one right answer.

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• Shelbyeileen@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I got sterilized because I have a painful, degenerative, genetic condition (with no cure), that I feel is too cruel to pass on. I won’t risk letting a child be born with this syndrome, so I made the choice so I never have to deal with getting pregnant. If I ever want a kid, I’ll adopt. (Doubtful. I can barely take care of myself like this)

  Every day hurts, there’s LOTS of days I wish I was aborted but I look at my rescue dog (who had been my service dog for 9 years now) and everything is OK. He was thrown away twice before I came along and his first owner kicked his teeth in. If I wasn’t here, who knows what could have happened to him.

  Pet Tax. You can see where his face was kicked, but nothing stops him from smiling

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  • lka1988@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    That dog is adorable, I don’t know what would possess someone to inflict that kind of torture on him… Also, I love the fact that he’s got a Master Sword strapped to him

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    • Shelbyeileen@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Some people have no regards for lives other than their own… and often get violent if a living being won’t obey them. I’m a domestic abuse survivor, so there was no way I was gonna leave without him.

      And thank you! He’s dressed as Wolf Link. 😁 I am a cosplayer, and since he’s my medical alert dog, he goes with me to comic cons.

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• njm1314@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Of course not.

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  • earphone843@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This is a little bit of a stupid question.

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    • guy@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Well, where it posted 😄

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• sepiroth154@feddit.nl ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It depends. Is it wrong to abort a child with mild autism? I’d say very. But if they were to live a life full of (mental) pain it would be a different story.

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• sunbrrnslapper@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I don’t think so. I have 2 disabled kiddos and they aren’t suffering, but they don’t have it as easy as their peers - which can be heartbreaking to watch.

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• skozzii@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’m in Canada and we have some extremely high rates of FAS(Fetal Alchohol Syndrome) within our indigenous population and its absolutely heartbreaking.

  The mothers selfishness to drink during pregnancy has absolutely devastated these kids future, and the outcome of nearly all of them not good and it is incredibly sad to watch.

  These days life is super hard without disabilities, and with the disability it becomes nearly impossible unless you have strong family support which in these cases nearly none of the have.

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• Squorlple@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You’ll have to think through a few other philosophical questions first.

  What about ailments that either cannot be detected prior to birth or which take onset after birth? By going forward with these uncertainties, you take a nonzero chance of subjecting the hypothetical potential progeny to the same fate.

  Even without any chronic ailments inseparable from a person’s body or psyche, there are still external hazards. Is it not ok to force someone to suffer a stubbed toe, yet ok to force an offspring to be born to suffer the eventual certainty of stubbing their toe? I think it would be impossible to find a sentient life that did not experience even a modicum of suffering. What percentage of an offspring’s life do you consider acceptable to force them to suffer through and to what magnitude of suffering? Can you guarantee that these criteria are met throughout their life?

  Who do you intend to benefit from making a child? Yourself, your partner, your parents, your religious leaders, your nation’s work force? I don’t expect people to answer “The child”, yet the child is the one who is most involved and the one who must live that life through. The child would not notice any detriment relative to birth if they were not born, and suffering can only be noticed by those who are born (which I would say is certain to happen), so in what way does it benefit any child to be born and shift from zero suffering to some suffering? To what extent does the boon for others that would be exploited from the child’s birth justify the non-zero suffering that the child would experience?

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  • CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    One could make the argument that suffering is more or less the opposite of happiness, and so that if you give the kid a good enough life, that cancels out the suffering and then some, but a lot depends on how exactly you define those things I guess.

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    • lukewarm_ozone@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      That’s literally true, but the simple counterargument is that the happiness/suffering conversion coefficient is a matter of one’s values and not particularly up for debate - so there’s nothing incoherent about, say, the position that your child living a happy fullfilling life for a thousand years but stubbing their toe once is enough suffering to make their life net negative.

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• Rivalarrival@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’ve said this many, many times: If abortion is a viable option, it is the only option worthy of consideration.

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• zbyte64@awful.systems ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’m not dumb enough to rationalize my way through life, so just go with what you’re feeling. You don’t need to rationalize it for it to be valid.

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  • volvoxvsmarla@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    That’s kinda sweet… I think

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    • zbyte64@awful.systems ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      The line and reasoning is borrowed from “Bimbo - a philosophical analysis” : youtu.be/FeRIE6JDhCQ , the line “I’m not dumb enough to rationalize my way through life” is a rebuttal of Nietzsche type attitudes.

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