Gish galloping is a well known argumentative technique to avoid scrutiny. It works so well, that now the US government is using a version of it to destroy the government at a rapid pace.
2/10 people on Lemmy, is that you?
Submitted 3 weeks ago by Return_of_Chippy@lemmy.world to [deleted]
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/afcb2ea9-2718-4391-a78e-d4f0b2008e05.jpeg
Comments
defaultusername@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
If the American Republic survives I suspect one long term change we’ll need is to introduce classes on political and rhetorical life to schools. Train people on how to have constructive discussions and how to recognize bad faith rhetorical tactics. We’re seeing now just how effectively bad faith tactics can undermine critical thought. This of course will have to be paired with teaching emotional intelligence.
If the goal of our education system is to produce good citizens of a republic and effective stewards of democracy, we need to be putting more time and effort into that. If my schools could fit religion classes in and still be a better education than public schools they can find the way to teach these things. Philosophy classes every year would probably have done me much better than religion classes.
notwhoyouthink@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
You’ve put a long form version of a theory I also have been thinking of: we need to do better for future generations by teaching and actually supporting critical thinking skills. I’ll also add empathy, which supports critical thinking and is not always hard wired in every human brain. Both are skills, much like emotional regulation and resilience. Personally, I would have benefited greatly by learning critical thinking and interpersonal skills at the age of 16 vs. whatever ‘algebra’ is supposed to be.
Essentially, and TLDR: We need to teach young developing minds how to think, not what to think. We can do even better by teaching said minds that while we are not defined by our thoughts, we have much to learn by observing them instead.
Donkter@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
So often it’s me typing out a big old comment. Realizing I can preempt some nuance to help the conversation. Thinking of a dozen more little nitpicks that might happen and realizing it’s just not worth it and it’s really the idiocy of the argument that’s making it so hard to explain myself.
GeorgimusPrime@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
You encountered Brandolini’s Law aka the Bullshit Asymmetry Principle: it takes an order of magnitude more effort to debunk bullshit than it takes to produce it.
Virtvirt588@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Exactly that, one bullshit goes into circulation, it spreads everywhere strengthening its flawed position. And just like it was said, facts dont even matter at that point - requiring a novel approach to disprove it.
tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
Hi, are you me?
absGeekNZ@lemmy.nz 3 weeks ago
No they are me
axh@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
In science there is an answer “you are not even wrong” which is a polite way of saying that wat you said makes so little sense, that it cannot even be disproven.
JohnSmith@feddit.uk 3 weeks ago
Originally used by Wolfgan Pauli, I believe. He also said “I don’t mind your thinking slowly; I mind your publishing faster than you think.”
fum@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I met a guy in a sauna the other day who started preaching to me and saying that he doesn’t believe in science because it contradicts the bible story of creation.
I just had nothing to say to this man. His perception of reality is so far off base that I cannot comprehend his thought processes.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 3 weeks ago
did you ask him why he thinks that the bible is true?
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
“Because it is the word of god”
“Ok, and you know that because…?”
"The Bible says so.’
“And why do you think the Bible is true?”
Rinse and repeat
grrgyle@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
This is what lead me to question my own faith: just someone asking honest questions with real curiosity
fum@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I was trying to relax in the sauna, so I didn’t want to get into it. Which is part of the problem with preaching like that!
Tonava@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
It’s pointless, then they go on a tangent about how it’s the word of god etc.To them god is real and everything is about god and if they have to make leaps in logic it’s just because mere people can’t understand god’s will
Siegfried@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Maybe the temperature of the sauna was a little to high?
I went to a catholic school in my country. We got teach biology, evolution, genetics and we also got sexual education including abortion (the practice was illegal at the time). One of the first things that i remember from our teology classes was that “we shouldn’t take what is written in the bible in a literal sense and that most of it was written to a particular volk in a particular time by men”… and the example the Father used was specifically the Genesis, meaning “earth was not created in 6 days”.
I read stories of those lunatics, i mean, those who trully are in a crusade against reality. Are those more common over the ecuator or something?
grrgyle@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
That’s a classic one too
StopTech@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
Do you think he understands everyone else’s though processes? Presumably if you were surrounded by guys like him then you would be able to comprehend the way they think.
zod000@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
I see you have met my in-laws. This isn’t just some boomer humor, they have truly transcended their Fox News addicted roots and now get really angry about aliens, chemtrails, and all sorts of bullshit.
bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Same here man. Its insanity. It has to be the lead. People can’t be this studpu otherwise right
Inucune@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Ruts in thinking. Fox News has given them the tools to win any argument with little effort on their part… Any person attempting to provide a sound argument is flooded with BS and gives up… Which they consider a win.
zod000@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
I honestly have no idea, but I suppose it could be the lead. My own mother is bonkers and is starting to remind me of the crazy old mother from Requiem for a Dream,
StarryPhoenix97@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
There are some people who have just been filled with so much wrong information over the course of their life that it’s impossible to reach them. Anything you say to them will have a keyword that puts their guard up, any fact you share would be fake news. It’s like their brains have been encrypted with the propaganda and hate. It’s pavlovian. I try to recognize it in myself and maintain an open mind but it’s hard.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
Now imagine that they’re your parents.
It’s fucking awful.
BeMoreCareful@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I don’t have to
StopTech@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
Now imagine it’s your children too.
StopTech@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
Very true. And we have to remember that our own views are informed by years of study/observation in areas other people will not have paid any attention to. So often it would take a book worth of real life examples to give someone the same background experience, and they would have to read that book carefully over many months for those examples to sink in, and still then they might think those are cherry-picked examples, whereas you came across them organically.
StarryPhoenix97@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
It hurts, man. Especially knowing that the road I took has crumbled behind me, like in those old Looney Tunes cartoons where someone redraws the road lines to lead people off a cliff.
Bitflip@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
Its unethical to have a battle of wits against an unarmed opponent.
Matombo@feddit.org 3 weeks ago
“Right extremists are defending Democracy”
Just 2 weeks ago and I still haven’t recovered from hearing that in person.
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 3 weeks ago
this could be because they understand “democracy” completely differently, though honestly it’s probably just a cover for “our way of life” or “our interests”
like when the US goes to the middle east to spread “democracy”, they’re not actually spreading a better quality of life for the people, just violence and bloodshed. could be that your acquaintance meant it in that way.
arrow74@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
Allegedly the guy who shot Charlie Kirk was a right extremist who’s take was Kirk was too moderate.
So far I think it’s a bet gain for democracy though.
It’s an interesting hypothesis
plyth@feddit.org 3 weeks ago
Wasn’t that assumed because of the family, but he actually turned left?
Utah County prosecutor Jeffrey Gray said that Robinson’s mother told investigators that her son had become more political over the last year and had started to “lean more to the left, becoming more pro-gay and trans rights–oriented”.
NickwithaC@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I used to work with people who would smoke whatever weed their friend gave them but wouldn’t get the covid vaccine because “you don’t know what’s in it”
StarvingMartist@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
online arguments never change minds, they only serve to galvanize each persons prior beliefs
Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
Its not about changing your opponent’s mind. It’s about the people reading along. You aren’t talking to your opponent. You’re talking to the audience you share with that opponent. Never forget that.
grrgyle@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
False. I was deeply religious growing up but can remember the exact “debate” with an online athiest that planted the doubts and lead to my deconversion.
drmoose@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
disagree, I’ve changed my mind several times through online arguments. Not always a flip but often reality is not as binary as you think and opposition has some important points.
pmjv@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
liar!
petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
- This is not always true.
- There is a third person in this equation.
musicjunkie@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
The majority of my currently held opinions on things have been shaped and influenced by over a decade of online forums discussion boards and conversations with strangers who hold different views as mine
I usually explain the phenomenon of the internet similar to that of the printing press. It makes the smart people smarter (easier access to information) and dumb people dumber (they can’t detect misinformation and manipulation thus will trend towards the worst possible outcomes). If you are a smart person without access to higher education YouTube and Wikipedia is the greatest invention of mankind; if you are a retard then YouTube leads you to binge watching Candace Owens
gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 3 weeks ago
i don’t see it that way, my views have changed significantly because of the discussions i’ve had (mostly online)
fum@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I think this is mostly true IRL too
grrgyle@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
People will not show you that they’ve been convinced, but inside something may have shifted.
matlag@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
You’re wrong and I am going to harass you until you change your mind to prove it!!
Oh, wait…
Auth@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Most people read internet comments even if they never participate. Regardless of what they say they will be influenced by those comments. If you never have the argument your view will be represented and will die out.
W98BSoD@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
MAGAs. Sometimes I don’t even debate them, I ignore them and talk about them as if they weren’t there, make fun of their arguments, laugh at them, mock them, just generally bully them, without even addressing them directly. They really hate that.
MAGAs and Anti-Vaxxers are about the only acceptable bullying targets, and they should be bullied as viciously and as relentlessly as possible. The damage they have done is incalculable, they deserve it.
StopTech@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
This reminds me of that quote
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Truthtwopower@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
Every maga I come across. Just a bag full of excuses for pedophiles.
hoch@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Same thing for me with tankies. Just a bag full of excuses for authoritarian regimes.
Return_of_Chippy@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Those are one of the groups I’m talking about
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
Yes, I block them, after I make sure that they’re insistent on being disingenuous.
Related: Pretty sure I’ve blocked most of the .world moderators/admins at this point.
Return_of_Chippy@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I never block. I post a lot and blocking doesn’t stop them from seeing and commenting on my posts.
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
I don’t care what idiots think, I enjoy not having to see their thoughts.
sin_free_for_00_days@sopuli.xyz 3 weeks ago
Yeah, I have a pretty low tolerance for the argumentative bullshit. That’s not why I’m here, and I often don’t give a shit if someone is wrong.
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
See I enjoy arguments, they can be productive and interesting, but I don’t enjoy arguments with people who are not honest with themselves, argue in bad faith, people who are either deliberately putting words in your mouth.
Nomorereddit@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
7/10 ppl online.
But w lemme its still 7/10…but there’s obly like 10 users so I can handle it.
DarrinBrunner@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
It’s not worth the effort to break down their position, and present coherent arguments back to them. They’ll just completely miss what you’re trying to say, and blast back more incomprehensible BS. It’s just raw, blind, ignorant anger, most of the time, we can’t refute emotion with logic, they just don’t hear it.
lobut@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Went to the UK and the director was shitting on vegans. I said, “you can hate them but at least they’re good for climate change” (I ignored mentioning I was a vegan in the past). Holy fuck, non stop verbal diarrhea. He said that global warming isn’t true because scientists have agendas. Global warming is when seasons change (I think he was being funny or facetious about that). He also said eating meat had some carbon in their bones and that’s good for the earth or some shit.
I wasn’t able to get a word in. I did eventually say that his definition of climate change would be agreed by no one. Then he came at me again and eventually ended it with “well, you started it”.
I said, “yes and let’s end it and move on”
He did not and then said more random shit.
wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
Thankfully the fediverse is still small enough that blocking people has a noticable effect. On reddit, for every person you block there’s 4 more to take their place.
gaiussabinus@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
1/5
SeptugenarianSenate@leminal.space 3 weeks ago
One fifth out of one
1984@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
I try not to argue with people on the internet. Its a compete waste or time and im actually surprised how many people do it.
pieberry@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
My mind has been changed by comments on here.
People can be quite informative, patient, and empathetic. They can write eloquently and persuasively. I’m glad for those people who have helped me change my mind on topics where my view was wrong because of my ignorance or flawed logic.
But in all honesty, I probably would have been better served by in-person public discourse on those topics instead of spending my time reading a bunch of takes from strangers on the internet. In person, you (usually) know everyone participating is real. You can gauge their sincerity by their tone & inflection, facial cues, and body language.
While my mind has been changed by people on here commenting, I still would much rather step away from the internet and talk to people face to face about the topics that effect us the most.
realitista@lemmus.org 3 weeks ago
As have mine many times. But there are certainly many people for whom learning something new is not in the cards as they have failed to learn so many other things in their life that they’ve come to some sort of dead end where they think they know everything yet know nothing useful.
1984@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
Thats good. I just learn shallow stupid stuff on here myself. Top topics are memes, big tech dystopian stuff and Trumps daily shocking statements.
Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
It’s not about your opponent. It’s about your shared audience. Tailor your arguments to convince the community reading along, not your opponent.
1984@lemmy.today 3 weeks ago
For me its not important if the community is convinced. :)
TerdFerguson@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
The denominator is divisible by the numerator.
Straight to jail.
BreakerSwitch@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person. It’s damn near impossible to win an argument with an idiot.
moderatecentrist@feddit.uk 3 weeks ago
This reminds me of talking to tankies on Lemmy, which is probably a futile endeavour.
For example, they seem to think that Russia’s imperialist invasion of Ukraine is justified. They think that Russia murdering Ukrainians with missiles and drones is justified. I can tell them that these actions are wrong, but they won’t listen.
fartographer@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
No, I’ve never tried interacting with myself like that.
Malyca@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
In my wise old age I don’t waste time on fools. I no longer have the patience. I used to try to talk them out of whatever stupidity they’re peddling and it was rarely successful. Not worth the effort.
peteypete420@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Yes, i have meet a person before. I have also commented on the internet.
FlyingCircus@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
My favorite are the anarkiddies who will be the first to tell you that corporations and capitalist states are lying propagandists, but when you say something remotely positive about China or the USSR they start talking like a 1950s US History textbook written by the CIA.
WanderWisley@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I live in rual northern Nevada and everyone here is hardcore brainwashed republicans. I used to try to correct them when they said dumb shit but it just made me look stupid, so now I just watch and listen to there ramblings. It’s more entertaining for me and less of a headache.
daannii@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I had the misfortune to run into one of those tankies I had heard about on here. They are like the extreme alt right. In that they go so far left they go right.
Like they literally blame feminism for Trump. It felt like talking to a maga. Making up their own definition of terms. Refusing to acknowledge actual definitions.
I didn’t realize who it was at first then took the time to read the user name and was like . Ah. … yes. Your reputation proceeds you. I should not engage with this individual.
Other people had made a post mentioning a few problematic users and this person had been mentioned and other people had chimed in with comments regarding said individual too. This was a while back but yeah…
godzillabacter@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
“Never argue with stupid people because they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” George Carlin