He took it literally

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Submitted ⁨⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨Sine_Fine_Belli@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨greentext@sh.itjust.works⁩

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cross-posted from: lemdro.id/post/28115777

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Mac@mander.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
FYI:

Later, at his trial, prosecutors told jurors that his silence in the face of that question showed that he was guilty,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berghuis_v._Thompkins

Understand how to invoke your right to remain silent and what consequences silence or otherwise may have–especially if improperly used.

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- Derpenheim@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Invoking your fifth amendment cannot be used to as evidence against you in a criminal court, but it can be used in civil cases. Its called adverse inference. Basically in a civil court if you refuse to provide information, it can be used against you to decide a fine or penalty. But it cannot lead to your incarceration under a criminal indictment. Griffin V California from '65
  
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  - ricecake@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Yes, but the case being referenced involved what it means to invoke your fifth amendment rights.
    Is remaining silent invoking the right, or do you have to state “I am invoking the right to remain silent”, or some other statement?
    
    Per the supreme Court, you can’t passively invoke the right and can only do so actively. So simply not answering a question isn’t invoking the fifth amendment and could be used against you.
    
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  - halvar@lemy.lol ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    That’s pretty good to know, as far as I understand the fifth is to be used exclusively in the context of presumption of innocence and protection of civils from authority. It would be very fucked up if some jerk would turn it on it’s head and argue that you not saying some shit that may incriminate you as far as you know is actually incriminating itself. That’s how oppressive regimes work.
    
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- JackbyDev@programming.dev ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  How?
  
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  - UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I mean, it’s fun to believe there’s this One Neat Trick to avoid being wrongfully convicted. If you’re just smart enough, educated enough, and cool in the moment, you can outfox the police, the DA, and the judge using a proven formula laid out in the US Constitution.
    
    But then you hear how these stories play out - cops outright lying to people they’re interviewing, DAs lying about what you’re being accused of, defense attorneys working with the prosecution, suspects being held for days or weeks without habeas corpus, suspects being threatened, suspects being tortured, suspects being lynched in their cells.
    
    There’s no “winning move” absent having friends on the outside of the system willing and able to lobby on your behalf.
    
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  - PieMePlenty@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    You tell them you want your lawyer and you will not answer any questions until you see them. Your lawyer will tell you how to proceed.
    If the police have nothing on you and wanted to fish something out of you, your lawyer will get you free. If the police have something against you and are pursuing further, your lawyer will inform you of what your options are. But generally, this is when you’re going to have to deal with this shit. It doesn’t matter if you did it or not at that point, but a lawyer will be your best bet to make it out on best grounds - whether that is get out free or with the smallest fine/sentence.
    Just know:
    
    if the police has something on you, and you did it, its game over, a lawyer may help ease the price you pay
    
    if the police has something on you, and you didn’t do it, its an unfortunate situation, a lawyer may help ease the price you pay
    
    if the police has nothing on you, and you did it, though unethical, a lawyer will get you off free
    
    if the police has nothing on you, and you didn’t do it, a lawyer will get you off free
    
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  - Godric@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    “I invoke my right to remain silent”
    
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Sendpicsofsandwiches@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Because everyone thinks they’re just going to either explain what happened and it’ll all be fine (it won’t), or they think they can just weave a great big lie and the cops will buy it (they won’t). Don’t talk to the police without an attourney. If you’re in that chair, it’s because they want to implicate you in some way, regardless of right or wrong. While they might throw a fit about it, refusing to speak without an attourney present is your right and is in no way an admission of guilt.

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- hoshikarakitaridia@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Either that, or police use the Reid technique and subject you to interrogation and psychological torture for multiple days while keeping you in maximum security in prison, of course unfortunately without any recording (a lá Richard Allen - and what a tank he was, withstood their interrogation for superhuman amounts of time until they finally broke him).
  
  So yeah there’s 2 ways: corrupt police departments and criminals that are way too confident.
  
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- BorgDrone@feddit.nl ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Just leaving this here.
  
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- binarytobis@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  explain what happened and it’ll all be fine (it won’t)
  
  A few times during traffic stops when I was younger (white male), I was so defenseless and trusting that in retrospect I can tell the cops were befuddled and just let me go even though I admitted to an infraction.
  
  That said, I wouldn’t try it again.
  
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  - TubularTittyFrog@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    a town next to the one i grew up in was notorious for asshole cops. i got stopped there multiple times as a teenager under false traffic bullshit ‘you ran a red’ etc. we were dumb and just let the cops search our cars and accuse us of being high and etc. they found nothing, but usually let us go after trying to intimidate us for an hour.
    
    i think they just want us to freak out or cry or something. they usually got pissed off with our polite compliance.
    
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- mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  and the cops will buy it (they won’t).
  
  The vast majority of cops are really dumb, so I disagree with thus statement. However, cops are highly motivated to not give a shit about whether a suspect is actually guilty. They’re motivated to get a confession or conviction, regardless of innocence or guilt.
  
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  - LH0ezVT@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Assuming the cops are dumb (enough) is a really risky strategy. And even if you are lucky and they are, they might just end up making a lucky guess.
    
    Plus, they’ve been through this game hundreds of times, while you most likely have quite limited experience with the system (hopefully). Never underestimate that.
    
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  - Agent641@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I would qualify this further to say that cops are motivated to make as many arrests and lay as many charges that have a potential to get a conviction as possible. They don’t really care if half or more of the charges get downgraded or tossed out, but they will charge a person with ABCDWXYZ during an arrest, because that looks good to them. If the DA only gets B and X to stick, that’s fine, they got their arrest. It’s the scattergun approach to charging people and arresting them.
    
    There’s a fair chance that wherever you go, whatever you do, there is something about you, your conduct during questioning, or your property that a cop can cite, charge or arrest you for. This is by design. This an age-old tactic by dictatorships and impressive regimes that work in their favour. It’s illegal for you to be you, and you aren’t locked up only by the grace of the oppressor. The result they want is that you behave, comply, and be quiet, or they will find something about you to bust you for.
    
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Nioxic@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Depends where you live

I heard about a guy in my country who admitted to have murdered someone

but the police couldn’t prove he did it - so he walked.

They then later found the real killer. the first guy “confessed” to it because he thought he didn’t have any other way out.

The police have to prove it - a confession can be unrealiable

at least where i live. in the US people are threatened with jail-time by the police, just to force a confession, so they can close the case and move on. Even though the police doesn’t throw people in jail… a judge does.

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- Psythik@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Yes this only works in the US. No matter what they say, the only words that should be coming out of your mouth is “I would like to speak with a lawyer”. And then close your mouth. Police in the US are allowed to lie to you to get the information you need, but asking for a lawyer right at the start shuts the entire conversation down before they even get a chance to do so. In the US.
  
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  - discocactus@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    or at least it used to
    
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- imetators@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Many serial killers, murderers or just plain weird people would claim they’ve done it even if they didnt. For the most part they just want some spotlight, or if just a weird person/homeless - to go to jail just to not to stay on the streets. So, I agree that even if they admitted to it - justice system still has to prove they’ve done it.
  
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- mojofrododojo@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  
  just to force a confession, so they can close the case and move on.
  
  this is the part that frustrates me the most having interacted with law enforcement from the victim side and from the administrative side; bad cops make it harder for everyone. when they subvert the law it’s not just violating innocent people’s rights, you’re denying justice to the victims by/and letting the criminal get away with it, who will most certainly go on to crime more and cost society shit tons of money; it should be their fucking job to find the actual criminal and proceed lawfully.
  
  it’s all so backwards, so dumb and wasteful.
  
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- pineapplelover@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Was his name Gun Rack?
  
  www.youtube.com/watch?v=14WE3A0PwVs
  
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ceenote@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
FYI, you need to say “I’m invoking my right to remain silent” or similar before going quiet. Just shutting your mouth and refusing to say absolutely anything will make it worse.

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- YouAreLiterallyAnNPC@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Ah, right. The Supreme Court decided we only get to have the rights we can remember under any given circumstance. Don’t let the cops catch you sleeping. Totally normal stuff in a totally normal democracy. Not at all a sign of any sort.
  
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- TragicNotCute@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  This is not entirely accurate.
  
  If you clam up pre-Miranda warning, it can be used against you (if you didn’t specifically exercise your rights).
  
  Case law about this: supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/570/178/
  
  Post-Miranda warning, there’s no issue. The warning literally advises you of your right to be silent.
  
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  - ricecake@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    That’s not entirely accurate:
    
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berghuis_v._Thompkins
    
    Your fifth amendment rights haven’t been invoked until you say so. The Miranda warning isn’t a guide for how to invoke the rights, just a notification that you have them.
    
    Now, it’s ridiculous that we’ve ended up here and it was a terrible ruling, both of them, but if you’re just quiet you haven’t invoked your right to silence anymore than you’ve invoked your right to legal counsel.
    Which is a hell of a position for the court to take on coerced confessions.
    
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  - sukhmel@programming.dev ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    It seems that you can’t invoke your rights pre-Miranda and before arrest, as seen in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salinas_v._Texas
    
    I don’t know how that works specifically, but I expect nobody will allow you ~~more~~ your rights whenever they can
    
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- derry@midwest.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  “I declare bankruptcy!”
  
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- UnityDevice@startrek.website ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  If you have to say a certain phrase in order to get granted a right, then it’s not a right, it’s just a spell you have access to.
  
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DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Yo I swear to god.

So I got arrested for “aggravated assult” because I defended myself against a racist bully in highschool

And you know what the fuck did my mom do, start fucking discussing about the details of case during the parent meeting thing.

And also like literally the next day when I had to go to the juvenile court system thing, my mom keeps saying a bunch of shit to the court staff, WHO IS NOT THE PUBLIC DEFENDER BTW.

Mom wtf, are your stupid. Are you TRYING to fuck it up even more? Shut the fuck up.

Literally I keep trying to tell her to shut the fuck up, stoping mentioning details other than just simply deny the allegations.

(Charges ended up dropped)

Also btw, I start using a non-english language and the court staff immediately got more aggressive with their tone and treated me as though I was conspiring with mom about something. Xenophobic pieces of shit court system.

I’m glad I had Citizenship, the system would literally attempt to deport a minor over a school fight. Cruel as fuck.

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- Holytimes@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  I mean strictly speaking by using a language other than the native one of the court you were conspiring with your mother.
  
  Conspiring is just planning or acting jointly with another in secret in its most mundane form.
  
  If your hiding your conversation by changing the language that is text book boring mundane conspiracy.
  
  Even if you didn’t intend to hide it, you were in fact doing so. It’s entirely understandable for a court to demand you speak the language of the court or have a translator present to ensure everyone understands.
  
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  - alsimoneau@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    “the native one of the court” but the US doesn’t have an official language
    
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  - DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I don’t think I was technically in a court room.
    
    It’s… okay I’m no laywer, but it felt more like just some court staff reading out / explaining the charges in a small room, it didn’t really feel like a court hearing or anything, at least it didn’t seem like it.
    
    I honestly was so confused af and wasn’t sure what was happening.
    
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mkwt@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Funnily enough, the supreme court ruled that you cannot invoke your right to remain silent by remaining silent. You have to actually say something about “I want a lawyer.”

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- lightnsfw@reddthat.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  Why the fuck do you have to invoke it at all? It’s a right. They should all be invoked by default.
  
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  - moody@lemmings.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Because they wanted to prosecute a guy who used that right, and they decided it needed to be reinterpreted to suit their desires.
    
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  - ricecake@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    The (obviously flawed) reasoning the supreme Court used is that it’s the same as invoking the right to legal counsel: we tend to accept that you need to ask for a lawyer, they don’t just get you one. Likewise, if you want them to stop asking you questions you need to say so.
    
    Considering the right isn’t the “right to remain silent” we nickname it, but No person shall be … compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, it’s a bit preposterous. Like saying it was a legal warrantless search because you never said “stop”, you just locked the doors, tried to keep them out, and tried to keep them out of certain areas.
    
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ElcaineVolta@kbin.melroy.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
he wasn't so silent when he voluntarily went on the news and basically let everyone know he was involved by having a panic attack on live tv.

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stringere@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Who is this and does that matter for the sake of the post?

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- sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  iirc he murdered a woman and scattered her body parts in trash cans on a college campus. I might be thinking of someone else because it has been a while but I pretty sure this is the guy. They spent hours trying to interrogate him and he effectively said nothing while remaining uncannily still.
  
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  - Diddlydee@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    The sped up video where you see him not move at all for ages is quite unnerving.
    
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  - FudgyMcTubbs@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Here’s a link to the wiki, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lauren_Giddings?w…
    
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  - stringere@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    Thanks for the context
    
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joyjoy@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Your silence will be used against you.

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- gustofwind@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  It actually legally can be used against you if you go silent before being told you have the right to stay silent
  
  The logic being…why would someone go silent before they’ve even been officially warned about it
  
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  - DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
    I think the problem is more like:
    
    They trick you into talking about the weather, then suddenly be like: “Yea, such a great weather, it’s such a shame that the victim couldn’t enjoy seeing this because you murdered the victim”
    
    Then you remain silent without verbally invoking the right to remain silent
    
    So the prosecutors are gonna be like: “SEE, HE IS GUILTY SINCE HE SUDDENTLY BECAME QUIET!”
    
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- mindbleach@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
  The nature of bad faith is that there is no right asnwer.
  
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Hubi@feddit.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I wouldn’t call life in prison “win”.

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hoch@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
I remember this interrogation. Fatso on the left kept getting in his face, telling him to make eye contact, so dude stared into his soul for the entire rest of the interview without moving. The detective ended up getting uncomfortable and had to lean back in his seat hahaha. Homie was creepy as hell.

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timewarp@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
Thanks for the soda & snacks, but the only person I’m talking to is my attorney.

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Stalinwolf@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
… I don’t… understand…

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shalafi@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago
My wife watches these shows. I want to scream at the white trash morons incriminating themselves. This is why I wear ear plugs and read a book in bed.

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