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We wouldn't listen, anyway.

⁨512⁩ ⁨likes⁩

Submitted ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨fossilesque@mander.xyz⁩ to ⁨science_memes@mander.xyz⁩

https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/79506098-9052-4634-844b-239c9ab24e3d.jpeg

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  • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    The argument that apes have never asked a question “is a classic example of overstatement,” said Heidi Lyn, a professor at the University of South Alabama’s Comparative Cognition and Communication Lab at the Department of Psychology and Marine Science.

    “There is plenty of evidence of apes asking questions, although the structure may not look exactly like humans asking questions,” Lyn explained.

    www.snopes.com/…/apes-questions-communicate/

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    • treadful@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      If a chimpanzee looks its handler in the eyes and points to a banana, it may be interpreted that the ape is asking to have the banana. This, Hobaiter said, shows apes are capable of asking questions.

      Obviously not in the spirit of the question. No curiosity, no attempt to learn about what’s going on around them. The article has no examples of real questions, so to me I’d say the meme rings true.

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      • yeahiknow3@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        Yeah, when my cat meows, it is “asking” for snacks. But it’s not inquiring about snacks, or curious about where the snacks comes from or why dogs like snacks so much.

        Granted, many humans don’t ask such questions either, but that’s because intellectual acuity is on a spectrum whose overlap with non-human animals, at least in the realm of being an incurious dunderhead, is overwhelming.

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      • exasperation@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        asking to have the banana

        Yeah that’s just a quirk of the English language in that “ask” means both inquiring, trying to learn information from a response, and request, a communication to another that the “asker” wants something.

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      • theneverfox@pawb.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        That’s crazy. You think monkeys aren’t curious about the world around them?

        They just don’t look to humans for answers, they look to humans for treats

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      • ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        By that standard, my dog is as smart as a gorilla

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    • Typhoon@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      Also

      apes have never asked one question

      WE ARE APES. We ask questions all the time.

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      • Infinite@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        Ook, ook-ook?

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    • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      Yeah, the moment I read that, I thought it sounded like bullshit. I doubt there’s a database of every sign language interaction with apes that proves that no ape has ever asked a question.

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    • tyler@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      I’m pretty confident most scientists studying animals have stated that apes have never asked a question. It’s pretty clear on record that only two ever have, both African Grey parrots.

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    • the_q@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      This right here. Humans assume so much based on their experiences and interpretations. It’s infuriating the assumptions we make. “That turtle just eats, sleeps and shits! It’s clearly not intelligent! It’s never read The Hunger Games!” goes back to working to afford a place to eat, sleep and shit while also subjugating others, inciting wars, destroying the planet and reading The Hunger Games

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    • tyler@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      And yet the scientists that did those studies stated that the animals never asked a question. Those are all other researchers claiming after the fact that questions were asked.

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  • LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    The entire study of great apes and sign language has been based on flawed methodology and subjective and biased interpretation of very small data sets.

    Its interesting that apes can recollect abstract symbols. It’s even kind of interesting that they can to some extent recollect hand gestures. But it is nothing more than symbolic association at its absolute best. Calling it language is a fundamental misrepresentation of what is taking place. Apes already possess several kind of language comparable to symbolic association, stuff like emotive language and body language and expressive language. There is no substantive evidence that they are capable of understanding and using an abstract language.

    What has largely happened in so called ‘studies’ on ‘sign language’ in great apes, has been a lot of animal abuse and fundraising for animal abuse predicated on vague notions of how inspiring the idea of talking apes is. They can’t talk. They are nonetheless very interesting creatures and we should be fascinated by them even without them having the ability to speak human language.

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    • MonkeMischief@lemmy.today ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      This reminds me of an excerpt in David Graeber’s “Bullshit Jobs”, where he quotes a sailor from like, the East India Company or something.

      Something along the lines of “Many suspect the monkeys of the island can speak, but wisely choose not to, knowing they would be put to work.”

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    • kazerniel@lemmy.world ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Tangentially related: the fucked-up experiments they were doing on dolphins, like giving them LSD or keeping one in a flooded, human-style house and trying to teach it English: The dolphin who loved me: the Nasa-funded project that went wrong | The Guardian

      content warning:

      spoiler

      it involves a caretaker routinely jerking off the dolphin she lived with, then the project got shut down, and the dolphin was kept in so bad circumstances that it committed suicide after a few weeks

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    • bunchberry@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      You’re wrong. I’m a great ape and I can understand abstract language.

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      • Lemminary@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        You big, hairy ape! Look at you over here, with your big brain and your big ass. So much abstract thinking, and you ain’t even got a prehensile tail!

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    • stray@pawb.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      You might like the novel We Are All Completely Beside Ourselves by Karen Joy Fowler. I personally prefer to go into books without knowing much about them, so I will put the premise in a spoiler tag:

      the premise

      It’s about a woman who was raised from birth with a chimpanzee as her twin sister, as she tries to figure out why her sister suddenly disappeared from her life when they were young, and where she is now.

      It has a fairly comic tone, which is very welcome given all the trauma.

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    • pelespirit@sh.itjust.works ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      But it is nothing more than symbolic association at its absolute best

      Have you ever had a pet that you were close to? I think you’re right that it’s cruel to study them though.

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      • LadyAutumn@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Ive had many pets. None of them have ever exhibited the ability of abstraction. Thats not an insult to their ability to understand my emotions or whats happening around them, their brains are just literally not designed to engage in the kinds of communication humans are capable of. They could not have the conversation you and I are having right now, they are neurologically not capable of it. Humans are uniquely capable of this.

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    • plyth@feddit.org ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      and are not meant to live lives in concrete cages

      Neither are we. It must be the language that makes it bearable.

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      • humorlessrepost@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        You misspelled drugs and orgasms.

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  • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Scientists speculate that this is why no ape has ever been on Jeopardy.

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  • WamGams@lemmy.ca ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Canadians don’t ask questions either. They just make statements, and then add “eh” to the end of the sentence.

    Canadians and apes have a lot in common, is what this article is telling me.

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    • MycelialMass@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Thats not how eh is used

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      • WamGams@lemmy.ca ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        You’ve met Canadians, eh?

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      • definitemaybe@lemmy.ca ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I mean, it sort of is, but only for the specific question of asking for agreement with the preceding statement.

        “This weather, eh?”
        “The Leafs actually have a chance this year, eh?”

        But not like “What’s your favourite colour, eh?” (Unless, maybe, it’s in the context where it’s obvious, like someone decked out head-to-toe in pink.)

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  • mumblerfish@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Is this true? I was listening to a lecture of I think it was a linguist on apes using sign language, saying that the evidence for them actually understanding language is… not great. Like it appear they just sign until their carers gets the right/expected answer. That they may want to say ‘apple’, but not finding the word, they can’t describe the shape, color, just random words util they hit the correct one, or something like that.

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    • EfreetSK@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      Afaik yes, although I remember reading that I think Koko sort of asked something (I think it was “what color” or something). But at the same time I remember reading about similar criticism you mentioned, that Koko’s were often quite random and the caretakers often tried to make fun of the situation that “she’s just joking”.

      I should find that article …

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      • mumblerfish@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        Yes, that is the one! Koko and “just joking” I recognize from that lecture.

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    • pimento64@sopuli.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      Longest non-human primate sentence on record:

      Give Orange Me Give Eat Orange Me Eat Orange Give Me Eat Orange Give Me You

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      • exasperation@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        Image

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      • mumblerfish@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        That is pretty impressive. Where is it from?

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      • nezrock@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        Pelcan mouth is good place for baby Put baby Pelican mouth now

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      • Klear@quokk.au ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        Proving that Trump supporters don’t count as human.

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    • theneverfox@pawb.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      That’s just not true. Most of them simply aren’t interested in communicating with humans, they just care about the reward

      That’s what made Koko special. She was interested in communicating with humans, and her conversations were wild. It got existential

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      • Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        You have a severe case of anthropomorphizing animals plus a stark lack of education on animal behavioral sciences. You have zero idea what you’re talking about.

        Koko’s “conversations” were gibberish that the scientists conducting the experiments interpreted with extreme bias. They wanted there to be meaning in what the gorilla was doing so they interpreted it as if there was. It was a heavily flawed experiment.

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  • rustyfish@piefed.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Imagine a fucking gorilla turning to the scientist and ask:

    Does this unit have a soul?

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    • NotASharkInAManSuit@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      Now I’m sad…

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  • Kolanaki@pawb.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Robin Williams had Coco ask if he would lift his shirt for her.

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    • Michal@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      Sounds more like a request / command than a question.

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    • tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      She probably thought he was another gorilla. He was one hairy mf

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  • Godric@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Onion News Network - Scientists Successfully Teach Gorilla It Will Die Someday

    youtu.be/CJkWS4t4l0k

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  • minorkeys@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Good. They will never question how we treat them. Then they can’t rise up and kill us all.

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  • kat_angstrom@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Never once? Not even “what’s for dinner”?

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    • sik0fewl@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      To be, or not to be?

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    • QuinnyCoded@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      well, kinda yeah. Just jumbled and weird:

      Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you.

      is the longest recorded sentence

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  • TerrabyteMarx@quokk.au ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Everything is so sad today

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  • NachBarcelona@piefed.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    Congratulations on that incredibly profound title OP. You should become a professional quote maker or something equally enlightened.

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  • HootinNHollerin@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael_(Quinn_novel)

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    • Dasus@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      Ishmael aims to expose that several widely accepted assumptions of modern society, such as human supremacy,

      Click link, go to “anthropocentrism”.

      Bro I can believe people are smarter than other animals and still not believe we’re the best or most valuable or worthiest or anything like that.

      I know dogs are not as smart as me, but they’re sure as fuck better people than me.

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