Submitted 5 months ago by chknbwl@lemmy.world to [deleted]
I grew up Catholic and went to catholic school all through primary and secondary school as well as attended church weekly for a good portion of my childhood (disclaimer: I’m not catholic anymore). We were always taught that if scripture and reality disagree, then it means scripture isn’t being interpreted correctly. Reality always trumps what the bible says. Much of the bible is meant as allegory or proverb and isn’t intended to be taken literally.
Most Catholics tend to lean much more towards an allegorical interpretation of the Bible when compared to, say, evangelical Protestants. They also tend to quote scripture a lot less.
That’s also been my experience; I can’t speak from personal expierence, but this seems to be a fundamentalist protestant thing.
This is also my experience exactly.
As a Christian, no. Education is great! We need more of it
Interesting that they call that dude from over 2000 years ago “Jesus”, when the letter J wasn’t invented until the 1500s, in Italy.
The more you know…
Now you know how I feel about Tutankhamun.
That’s why clocks with Roman numerals often use iiii instead of iv. IV would have looked like JU.
Your name literally has 666. Presses “X” for doubt
You’re generalizing what you’ve seen in media instead of what you might see in the world. Like all Americans carry guns, all Germans drink beer for breakfast, all Australian’s wrestle crocodiles, all jews believe in destroying Gaza, all Muslims chant ‘death to America’,
Of course he’s a Christian. They’re the only ones who think “666” actually means anything.
“We need more of it”, you say.
If only to avoid that those people get more influence.
When people talk about “christians” they always fail to realize that there are hundreds of different denominations. Some are going to be psycho snake swingers or ultra regressive loons. Others are just regular people who believe in god. People always focus on the crazies because the crazies are the ones standing around screeching.
But there are plenty of denominations that are left leaning as fuck because, guess what, Jesus as described in the bible was a socialist hippy who hung out with sex workers, leppers, and other social outcasts. For example the church I always went to was pro same sex marriage as far back as 2005, so long before it was legal in most states (I just don’t remember it comming up before that).
So some ultra regressives (like the person who made those comics) are anti-education because they’re against anything that doesn’t promote their worldview. But I’d say the vast majority of christians aren’t like that at all.
The problem with the regular moderate Christians is they vote in droves for regressive politicians. Because one of the parties got a monopoly on Jesus™️.
Yet, nobody talks about moderate Nazis. Just Nazis.
What’s a moderate Nazi even look like? I think if you even slightly deserve the term ‘Nazi’ you’re so far past anything considered moderate it’s absurd.
Are people not familiar with Chick Tracts? These comics are a part of the prodigous ouvre of paranoid right wing evangelical conspiracy theorist Jack Chick.
I think his work is best understood as that of an outsider artist, like Henry Darger or a painting elephant. His work allows you to glimpse a mind outside the normal human experience.
His work focuses on who is going to hell - everyone who's not a right wing american protestant, and many who are. It shows a strong pornographic influence - many end in a blissful face dowsed in a baptismal money-shot.
It's meant to be used as a legitimate tool to evangelize. The worst christian lunatics leave these things in public, earnestly believing that after reading you'll realize the divinely ordained truth that freemasons will all burn in hell along with blood-drinking rothschilds and D&D players.
Ohhh, Chick Tracts. Fun times, I recognized the style right away too!
I’ve seen them in person twice. Once a neighbor gave us one in a plastic bag with other Jesus-y stuff. And the second time I found an entire stack of them at the gyno’s office
I stole all of them. Amazing. Horrible things, I love how batshit they are lmao
I always took them all whenever I found them - horrible things, I love them covers it perfectly.
But also, I wouldn't just leave a kitchen knife lying in public. Most people can be trusted to safely avoid the danger. But what if a child, or someone intent on harm found it?
The responsible thing to do is to remove the threat from the environment.
My mother brought a couple of Chick tracts home from church for me… I don’t think she actually read them first.
My favourite was the one where a man murdered his wife while drunk and then his daughter threatened to cut him with a broken bottle.
The d&d game summoning the devil was always my favorite. Always love a d&d episode.
Also any one where the pope is shown in league with someone unlikely - communists, jews, muslims, etc.
As fun as it is to dunk on theists, this brand of Christianity is far from common, let alone representative of Christianity.
Rest in piss, Jack Chick, you miserable dirtbag.
This brand is actually quite common in poor, southern states.
It’s common, but it’s still not anywhere near the majority. The majority would be uncomfortable with religion being lumped in with the rest, and would be deeply uncomfortable with sports being there. The majority view is generally pretty chill, if (and it’s a big god-damned ‘if’) you toe the line on a few doctrinal issues and supply-side economics: get baptized in a protestant denomination, donate and/or go to church, don’t be queer, don’t be atheist, don’t be a single pregnant woman (and certainly don’t stop being one before the baby is born), and be appropriately shamed of your vices. Check all the boxes, and you can go to college to get a business or even engineering degree and consume the milquetoast remnants of the monoculture. It’s more about conformity than religious ardor or theological purity.
Chick tracts are a very conservative cartoon series.
University is the first time a lot of people are away from the influence of their family, while also being exposed to other ideas. A lot of people leave the ideas that their parents try to instill in them once they run into people raised with different ideas than them. It kinda clicks that what we are taught as children in our small communities may not actually be correct.
I remember as a child, churches praying for kids going to university, and their parents being upset after the church services that their kids have “fallen away” from the faith. After the services is key point because women aren’t allowed to speak during the services, so a mother being upset that her daughter wasn’t a fan of that is bonkers.
The simple answer is, generally no. Most modern Christians are far more moderate and flimsy in their beliefs than one might think. There’s always going to be extremists in any situation, but someone that identifies as a “Christian” in the modern world is generally shaped by the modern world. You’ll be hard pressed to find someone deny basic science in today’s world.
Where you living? Because all the white christians in my state most definitely reject education. Hell 90% of the GOP base in America is well on their way of being completely braindead due to their hate for education and science.
The American Bible Belt are Evangelical Baptists, and an odd offshoot of Presbyterian. They’re… special. I know them to be reactive, xenophobic and downright ornery.
They are also absolutely, rabidly devout.
You’re confusing the belief that their faith trumps education with reject education altogether.
There’s a whole order of Jesuits who are basically the Pope’s scientists, and who curated the ancient knowledge through the Dark and Middle Ages.
In fact, the current Pope is a Jesuit.
Jesuits have done some decent work for humanity, but they are not scientists, mostly because they start from a premise they want to be true and find evidence for it instead of the other way around.
You’ll be hard pressed to find someone deny basic science in today’s world.
They didn’t outright deny it (out loud), but they cast doubt and equivocate about the parts that don’t agree with their preexisting worldview.
Bet
Short Answer: No.
Long Answer: Some fundamentalists have a weird and frankly dangerous obsession with controlling their children, and that extends to a distrust of secular education, but those people are a minority even of Protestants; most denominations, even among Protestants, value education highly.
Christianity is quite broad and this question will yield a different answer depending on the variant.
The example tract you shared looks like a Chick tract (or similar). That’s a specific breed of American Evangelicalism. Unfortunately, the number of followers in this brand of theology is quite numerous in the United States.
Evangelicals are definitely proponents of education, but very specifically things that align with their theology. So education in dogma, apologetics, and their brand of theology is heavily pushed.
Unfortunately, education in the sciences (particularly biology) is actively fought against because their theology and the sciences conflict on a number of matters. So long as the science agrees with their theology, they’re okay with people being educated in it. That which disagrees with their interpretation of scripture, is interpreted as lies from Satan polluting people’s minds and turning humanity from God.
These Christians will always speak of how important education is, but it takes the form of indoctrination. The more they can solidify people in their beliefs, the better and more “truly” educated they are as a result. If you believe in the sciences of evolutionary biology, then you’ve been deceived and misled.
With that said though… it’s important to remember that there are quite a number of Christians that are not adherents of this form of evangelicalism and who are strong proponents of the sciences.
Religion is about control. The more fundamental the religion is, the stronger that control needs to be. This isn’t a Christian problem or even an evangelical problem. It’s common with numerous religions and why so many devastating wars I’ve been rooted in religion. This problem is a religious problem.
This was extremely well said. My in-laws adhere to one of these high control (fundie) sects, so I have an enlightening and disquieting inside look at it.
One of my nephews dreamed of becoming a marine biologist from an early age. And even as he got older he never wavered. We privately wondered what was going to happen when he got old enough to realize that he would need to attend a school that taught actual math and science for that to become a reality.
He's currently studying to become a nurse at a Christian College. He's safe from forbidden ideas, but he'll blend well into the alternate parallel economy favored by the people at his church. In addition to social isolation from non-believers, they prefer to do business with companies run by people from their own or an affiliated church.
The parallel economy still unnerves me for some reason. Learning about Christian Health Insurance was an eye-opener.
You’ve touched on a number of the things that give religious organizations cohesion and strength. The indoctrination is important when it comes to reinforcing those things and building on them. Health cooperatives, college scholarships, support when life circumstances hammer you into the ground… there’s a lot of benefits to being a part of the system. Most people never realize how much they’ve lost by being a part of the system. Why? Because they’re kept ignorant of the things they’ve lost. Keeping that knowledge and experience away from them is important to maintain the desired control.
The kind of christian who indulges in this sort of thinking is wildly out of touch even with the beliefs of most zealous evangelical Christians.
Evangelicals might have a grudge against the education system for producing people who are less likely to be evangelicals, but they’re also people who are deeply involved with peer culture, sports, and public organized religion.
This literature was published by a sect that even evangelical folks would regard as cultish.
JWs don’t go to college for that exact reason. It seriously is a way to keep people from leaving the faith. Frederick Douglass wrote about how slave owners went out of their way to keep slaves uneducated for a similar reason . He learned to read in secret and then was able to see many truths about the institution of slavery because of his education .
Most Christians are in favour of education.
Most Christians are not American.
Most Christians are not Jack Chick
You have heard of those Muslim terrorist group in Africa called “Boco Haram”? That name is literally “education is evil”. Those “Christians” are basically western Boco Haram. Just wait until they start harrassing kids who still attend real schools.
Book burners, etc.
They’re already doing it.
There are definitely anti educational themes in some strains of Christianity.
In the circles I grew up in, public school was evil for a variety of reasons. The good Christian families would not send their kids to public colleges either. They’d send them to Christian colleges which in many cases are not accredited. Not a good choice if you want to be an engineer or something. OK if just looking for a godly spouse!
We wanted a science fair at our Christian high school but the leadership was against it, lol.
Home schooling is a popular choice in some Christian circles. It’s hard to say that home schooling is a generally pro educational decision.
Think about the Bible. The first story is that God made everything. Cool. The second story is that Adam and Eve wanted knowledge of good and evil and God was like lol no.
Finally, if you want an extreme example, read the book Educated. I guess it’s more about a cult that is a family. But yeah.
Weird considering science doesn’t contradict the Bible, only if you take a very literal interpretation of Genesis
a very literal interpretation
This is literally what Christian fundamentalists believe. If any aspect of the bible is not the literal truth, it all falls apart in their eyes. They are very absolutist.
And it's not just Genesis.
"But translations..."
Hahaha no. It varies by sect but it usually falls under either "our religious founder was guided by God to the true translation" or "The King James version was a work of revelation and it undid all the false translations introduced by the Romans and Greeks."
"But it contradicts itself on key points."
No it doesn't.
"Hey, maybe Lazarus was just in a coma"
Get behind me, Satan.
There is no argument that hasn't been heard and rejected. Disagreement is an attack.
The reference in this specific pamphlet is against education that teaches evolution (and also by extension anything else the specific Christian sect disagrees with such as equality and other liberal values).
This is a Chick Tract so the sect is pure nutter.
Only the right bits of history though.
Some do, most don’t.
Follow the money.
It’s only the church leaders who push this crap.
Depends what type of “christian” you are.
A benevolent god who does not discriminate and truly loves their human creation would want you to learn all the “gifts” bestowed on the world and for you to use your own “gifts” of thought and free will to the fullest extent.
A shitty Xtian, like many Americans, uses religion to keep power and to suppress others. To them god is just a big stick to punish, and rarely praise, the subjugated.
Similar to how conservative rural people don’t like their children going to a big city and big university because any sane person is empathetic to the many different points of view they learn from others. The rural conservatives want their child to grow up exactly the same and never surpass the parent.
Like, are you going to give someone a present of an expensive multi tool / Leatherman, but tell them it will disrespect you if they inspect it or use it as more than a heavy, blunt object for pounding?
Or would you be super happy if the person learned to use all the functions of the multi tool? Maybe even learn uses you didn’t know about?
Can you explain how the fruit in the garden in Genesis relates to your comment?
Gladly. Are you going to have a kid, and then put the most amazing gift for them on the counter in plain view, but tell them for their entire existence they cannot touch it?
Also, I know no details about the fruit of knowledge that a talking snake tricked them into taking. So if you want to reach me some details, I will reevaluate my stance in light of new knowledge.
Your answer is right in the pictures: if they think any education is bad, they also would think any religion is bad, because the first picture says the same thing about religion that the second does about religion. So this would mean Christianity is bad.
It’s clear they are saying that these are tools the devil uses. But just because the devil uses a hammer, doesn’t mean the hammer itself is bad.
There certainly is a strain of modern American non denominational fundamentalists who think the reformation was the right idea. Catholic priests and all the trappings are a distraction.
Think about a modern Protestant church. It’s empty. No art. You show up. Simple sermon. Socializing. The whole emphasis for many modern believers is a personal relationshio with God. Not supposed to be the mega church pastor, or the art, or the nice facilities, or the donuts.
Most dont, but idiots shout loudest.
They are generally fine with education in general, but some get VERY riled up about some of the specifics.
Remember people, do not feed the trolls!
So, if I’m to take their message as intended, in addition to avoiding sports and education, I ought to avoid religion too? Are there more pages to this saying something along the lines of “… Except my favourite religion?” Otherwise, I mean, I’m confused what they want me to do here?
In my hyper religious, Southern Baptist upbringing, I often heard Christians say that Christianity is not a religion. The mental gymnastics employed to explain this position were varied. Most often it was “Christianity isn’t a religion, it’s a relationship [with God]”, or something along the lines of “Christianity isn’t a religion because it’s true”.
“Religion” in general was thus deemed a bad thing, because it was a term used to encapsulate all the other (and thus false) faith-belief-philosophy systems that were used by Satan to lead the world away from God. It bears noting that Catholicism and other major denominations always all fell under that umbrella of “other”.
I grew up in this kind of environment. Every religion and denomination except your specific subset of Christianity is bad, you’re taught.
This is a specific reference to the kind of church that emphasizes a personal relation with Jesus as the escape from sin etc. It’s like the second reformation. It’s not good enough to not be catholic. It’s not good enough to go to a Protestant church that doesn’t use icons and Latin chants and confessional. Church itself can be a distraction to some non denominational fundamentalists. You should go to church but it’s a bare bones place. The emphasis is on you reading your Bible. Etc.
Holy cow, I remember these skinny books. Chick tracts, ey? Growing up, back when my folks were still fundies, we had a few on the bookshelf and I remember they were my first time seeing ‘nudes’ in print. I think the highlight was some dude who went to hell’s whole butt, nary a leaf in sight. Prior to that, there was only the carefully, tastefully covered parts of Adam and Eve for me.
Hilarious that my takeaway from these was just first sight of full butt.
The oglaf comic mentioned a god called Sithrak in some of the comics, and eventually made some tracts in the style of chick tracts about it
(that comic is SFW but many of them aren’t)
This in particular is from Jack Chick, who also belonged to a group convinced that the KJV is the result of a new revelation.
Some absolutely do, some nominally don’t but don’t stop to think about the implications of what they say they want, and probably most think education is great. The term Christian refers to so many people that making any broad assertions is going to be wrong for large percentages of the group.
British Christian here, with an engineering degree. I think knowledge is a good thing. But it’s not the only thing; faith is important too. Balancing the two can be tricky because we always want more “why?” and God isn’t always going to answer that. But He is good, infinitely good, there is no evil in Him, and He has promised to be with us forever. There are times when you just have to switch your analytics off and trust, and find the peace within “I don’t know.”
Not the ones I know
Potatos_are_not_friends@lemmy.world 5 months ago
It’s more that they think modern education is WRONG, and the only truth is the Bible, or whatever their interpretation of the Bible is.
Which is funny, because those same folks never even read the Bible.
InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world 5 months ago
This right here is the answer. To elaborate a bit; they are taking the Bible as an Axiom, A self-evident principle or one that is accepted as true without proof as the basis for argument; a postulate. The problem is that research around devolution, the formation of the universe, or Earth’s age point to those Axioms not being as solid as once thought. In science this is not an issue; we have moved from Newton’s view on gravity to Einstein’s view with General Relativity, see this for more. In Christianity this is not as simple; remember God is all powerful and all knowing, and by extension so is his word in the Bible. If you conclude something that does not agree then you are challenging that aspect of God. That is the core of fundamentalism. You can already see how this framework leads to a young Earth or dinosaurs living with humans.
A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Thats the propaganda.
In reality its about control and power. Thats why they want to breed an army and take over all elected positions. Thats what they talk about behind closed doors and when cameras are away.
sodalite@slrpnk.net 5 months ago
This is it, in my experience. They think all you need to read is the bible and no other books. But if you’re only reading the bible, you miss out on everything in all other books, which is a lot.