Submitted 2 weeks ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to science_memes@mander.xyz
https://mander.xyz/pictrs/image/2b02016d-2ae2-4ca7-9da6-776c6148bf5f.png
Yuuup. Woman in engineering here. I once had a supervisor whose behaviour I thought of as normal, but two guys I worked with separately reported him to HR for bullying after seeing how he treated me.
It’s funny, I had many years with almost no career progression, now my boss is a woman and I’m having to get used to the idea that bonuses and promotions are things that actually happen when I work hard.
My wife was marked down on her PhD because she “wasn’t nice enough” to her supervisor. All the assessors gave her top marks, but her supervisor vetoed them.
Please give her a hug from me. And if you happen to get a chance to stab her supervisor … well, I’ll not say do it, because that would be illegal. But sometimes accidents happen …
Glad to hear you at least had some decent colleagues!
Yeah, that’s the thing, the majority if guys are OK or better … it’s just there’s enough arseholes to hold women and minorities back when there’s no or unenforced DEI
I also am glad you got the support. I’m constantly reminded of a friend in college who was going through an electrical engineering undergrad with me. She got all the material so easily and literally dragged me through the classes. I wouldn’t have passed some key topics without her help. Fast forward a few years and I’m getting my PhD and I decide to see what she is up to: she ended up quitting her PhD program because of the insane abuse and misogyny she experienced in the department and instead changed to a masters in music. This was a woman who could easily have made field changing discoveries but was shut down because of close minded individuals. It still makes me rage and is the reason I work so much harder now to ensure my female colleagues and employees have an equal voice at the table.
Sad to say, but that’s a familiar story.
It’s great that you’re now making efforts to right that sort of wrong now!
wow, that’s really out there for being bee movie erotica
Idk I’m pretty hard rn
anaphylactic shock?
I transitioned to male 15 years ago, I was already well into adulthood by that time so had experience to compare. 100% agree with the post. It was night and day. (I’m not in Stem; just generally in life.)
The weirdest thing was some of the individual people who changed how they treat me over time, for the better. After I started transitioning. Its cool they are so trans positive and affirming I guess. But if you can turn that shit on like a tap why not do for everyone?
Now as a man I struggle to notice when I’m getting special treatment. Even with my prior experience. Sometimes I have been oblivious for years until I finally clocked it or it was pointed out by a woman.
It has made me much more respect cis men who manage to have a keen eye on sexism. Especially those who are masc presenting. It is so easy to not notice. It’s very comfortable. People are polite. You have good luck. To all the guys commenting here that it doesn’t go on around them: it sure as fuck does.
I think people get defense around the idea of “male privilege” because they think it’s getting them something extra. It’s more all of the shit you don’t have to deal with.
Exactly. As a teenager I hated the concept. Partly because I’d been bullied for failing to perform masculinity as a child, partly because I was not happy with the whole boy thing, but also because all the shit so many cis men say.
But when I transitioned I saw it. And I saw trans men starting to receive the privilege I was losing.
Sometimes we should just, I dk, listen to what people that have different experiences to us say. I figure, I have no idea what it is like to question my gender, so maybe I should shut the fuck up and listen to what people who do tell me.
shut the fuck up and listen
But dont need to turn off your brain. There are plenty of dumb trans people out there and you can find a trans person to represent any position.
Is there one gender friendlier to trans people?
I doubt it. It depends. I mean, women are friendlier, in general. It depends. And trans men are more likely to be “passing” living stealth. So its a different thing. I hardly know what anyone thinks of trans people unless I ask, because 99% of interactions I have are as presumed cis.
One thing I know is that everyone loves men. Cis men, trans men, doesnt matter. People value men. This is why all kinds of anti trans horseshit specifically targets trans women. In the UK recently there was a ruling about the definition of “woman” as it relates to trans women. But no definition of “man”. Why! Why are only women subject to such shit. Trans men are implicitly pulled in and adversely affected but women are the ones who have the law about their bodies.
Not him or transmasc, but as a trans woman, gender doesn’t influence how bad someone is, but it does influence how they are bad. Transphobia (directed at trans women) from cis men often looks like disgust and direct violence as well as oversexualization. There’s also an element of seeing themselves as knights in shining armor to cis women. From cis women it’s more likely to look like ostracization, backstabbing, and calling for men’s protection.
If you noticed that that’s how cis men and women tend to treat cis women they hate, congratulations, you’ve figured out why one common refrain from trans women is that transmisogyny is a form of misogyny.
Trans masc person checking in. Might be my bias or community or something but I get way less misgendering by guys under 30 than basically any other demographic. They seem to pick it up faster and be really chill about it in ways that a lot of the women in my life really don’t seem to get as comfortable with.
But there is definitely a part of my brain that sees men as being of my tribe in ways that women are not. Like not to say that I don’t have incredible women in my life whom I have incredibly close bonds with… But there’s definitely some kind of cognitive distance that has always kind of been there.
I think trans femmes might experience a similar situation with feeling accepted by women but to answer your question about if the bros are alright… Yeah, they good.
I think this is a huge problem even with people that would say about themselves that they respect women, or even that they are feminist. A lot of men on the left suffer from a total absence of introspection. They may not want to treat women differently, but then they just repeat patterns they have learned without any reflection, and end up doing just that - talk over women, mansplaining to them and so on. It’s the same with any privileged group of people.
Men/white people/other privileged groups: if you do not reflect your actions and question your own thought patterns and influences, you will likely discriminate against others. Because the wold that influences us is total dogshite. Strife to be better.
Right. There’s so much we do automatically, behaviours we’ve picked up from our culture, or are condoned by our culture, that we don’t realise are discriminating.
But if you can turn that shit on like a tap why not do for everyone?
I would think because they aren’t aware of it.
Now as a man I struggle to notice when I’m getting special treatment. Even with my prior experience.
Thank you for sharing this. I’m usually in communities where - as far as I know - people treat women equally. (Or in different culture communities, so that’s a whole different area.) So I tend not to notice if there’s special treatment for men. This will remind me to be more aware.
preach. it is for reasons such as what you stated that i fully give my blessing to women transitioning to men. level the playing field by any means necessary. this is survival.
i try to embrace my male archetype because i think the worlds needs strong men, but i have come to understand the feminist perspective and i don’t think there’s any conflict with masculine men being empathetic. as a matter of fact, i think a truly confident man doesn’t need to worry about being vulnerable and is in touch with their feelings. the macho american culture is not who we are. it is an aberration directly resulting from abrahamic religious values being hijacked by sociopaths to pave the way for authoritarianism and further subjugation of women.
and i think it’s up to all of us to break these insecure macho idiots down into kneeling before a new age of humanity. make them heel to understand that they were weaklings all along.
Just to be clear: women do not transition to men to level the playing field or materially benefit themselves.
Studies of post transition income show that trans women go down (sometimes drastically) whereas trans men tend to stay about where they would have been. You get benefits of being treated as male but then you have discrimination and other problems as a queer/trans person to balance it out. So while I can report on the moments when socially and structurally I am treated as a man, it isn’t the total experience if my life. I still am trans. There are significant problems associated. I wouldn’t reccomend it as a career enhancer. To say nothing of how unpleasant transitioning just in hopes of getting a raise would feel.
I agree with regards to masculinity.
As a man, it is insane to me that this is real.
I have a difficult time imagining malicious intent towards women by all these people. But given how common these stories are, there is something true about it. I just don’t understand why.
Is it really an unconscious cultural thing? Or am I naive about how my fellow men (I guess maybe women too) feel towards women?
Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women. But it sure as hell looks intentional.
I am not defending them. I am expressing my struggle with the reality of this shit.
Selection bias (which for the record means this is still a problem) the people who don’t discriminate aren’t causing harm so you don’t notice them but since they don’t speak up they aren’t helping either, so the jerks are still setting the tone. The solution is to not just do the right thing but actively call people out the jerks.
I agree with you there. As someone in programming, I don’t quite have the opportunity to fight these things when they happen because… There are no women. (obviously linked to this) but I can’t call out behavior when it happens when I am not around. But I am happy to report that I have been vocal about my support of trans people and fought against transphobia, even at work. Obviously I am not happy it is needed.
So I am trying to see and support victims of discrimination.
Personal experience from when I was newly an adult, and chatting with a female university classmate and somehow got on the topic of games and I started explaining what Steam was, because I just subconsciously assumed, her being a woman, didn’t know.
She politely pointed out I had mansplained to her.
I am very thankful to her for the experience as it’s stuck with me and saved me from making a fool of myself on more than one occasion since.
I’m sure there are possibly small things like this, that you may have been been “guilty” of in the past.
These men, are engaging in similar behaviour cranked up to 1000.
However, it’s even more malicious with them, because it’s not like the last 30 years or so haven’t had constant and increasing messaging (in the anglosphere, at least) about feminism and ways in which women have been treated unfairly.
So, it’s not like they haven’t had the opportunity to reflect, and change.
In summary, yeah, it is kind of baffling, but I will say society, while largely better than 30 years ago, still does have structural as well as conscious and unconcious bias towards women.
So I’m not surprised people like this exist.
I hear you but what cranked it up to 1000?
Like I always saw my mom as a extremely competent person, as a child she was flawless. Nowadays, I see her flaws but I am flawed, so if my father and any person I ever met. I am impressed by my sister and how I can be like the person that she is in many ways.
I am talking about my direct family because these women had a lot of influence on me. So I wonder, what was their experience like to think so poorly of women? Not blaming the women in their social circle for being “bad”, I just wonder wtf happened. Where does that belief come from? I don’t think they all had great experiences with their male role models but horrible ones with their female role models. So what is it?
You’re simply not paying attention, because you don’t have to. Not to be harsh. I went from male to female and how I’m treated is night and day. You’ve never tried to see how the other side lives, and when you heard stories that went against your experiences you dismissed them like your mind is trying to do right now.
Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women. But it sure as hell looks intentional.
Most people don’t do any of this “intentionally” in the sense that they are aware of the harm they cause. It doesn’t even enter the realm of moral consideration.
To many, there is a genuine belief of superiority that is entirely subconscious. The easiest example is classic mysogyny in a relationship - the woman is “emotional” and therefore the man should be the one to handle “business”. That’s not just 1950s oppression. Some variation of that thought process is shockingly prevalent across generations.
That man doesn’t really think he’s harming his woman. He thinks he’s helping, by being the man of the house. That same logic applies outside of romance. “I am more rational than she is, therefore I should talk now and she shouldn’t.”
That’s not a thought. That’s just a foundational belief that spawns all the other thoughts.
Ever been in an argument with another adult, and a child joined in with some naive half-informed emotional take on society?
An adult usually placates the child - explains, briefly, why they’re wrong - and returns to arguing with the other adult.
That’s how a lot of men see women by default. As inferior, naive, ill-informed, emotional creatures. Not consciously. Not intentionally. Many mysogynists genuinely seem to have the same intentions as the adult to the child - to placate and educate.
But its fucked up, and it’s important to acknowledge that it simmers under he surface. The reason all of this is so complicated and messy is that it is so hard to see mysogyny for what it is.
You genuinely can’t know if a single interaction with a single male was an example of mysogyny, because sometimes humans just condescend to each other. Sometimes humans are just shitty to each other.
But women experience so many of these experiences in aggregate that they can’t give the benefit of the doubt to every man they meet, especially when the man himself might not understand his own implicit biases.
I understand all of that but it seems crazy that it would generate these results so systematically.
Idk. I certainly want a world where gender is a fun little thing and not an life defining element.
I think you’re naive but in fairness, it is shocking and hard to believe.
I’ve heard in my university that a lab manger/ head was trying to always get with the female students, and would ignore male ones, or would not allow male to volunteer in his labs.
I understand now how people can believe sexism is not an issue. Do you not have any people who are women close to you who have faced this professionally?
Honestly, no. I am working in programming. There are no women. We both know why and the answer is sexism.
But even on the way into the job, I have only twice experience someone telling a woman to not do IT that was when I was a student. 1. A classmate, and everyone gave him a lot of shit for it. Seriously, I don’t think he had a friend in the class afterwards. 2. A father telling his daughter. And there I jumped in and challenged him on it.
It is difficult to spot sexism in a different department.
Something in me refuses to believe that these people knowingly and intentionally harm women.
One thing I think that goes too far is people either think misogynists represent 0% of 100% of men. It’s neither. There are some men that are extremely prejudiced against women and will cross the street just to bother them, and then there’s a huge slice of men that support women as best they can.
I mean, if nothing else, incels definitely exist and they would treat the women in this situation wrongly. Do you think no one is an incel?
Fair point
I want to say that “unconscious cultural” doesn’t exist, but I don’t think I’m right on it. You can easily build consciousness on those topics and thus easily spot the cases with risk for any wrongdoing, and with how common and well-known they are, it just feels more like “willingly ignorant”.
Assuming that it is cultural, as it seems like your comment kinda assumes that. Like it seems you are saying, it was cultural but by now it is kinda intentional.
I would argue “willingly ignorant” is bad but also not making it less “unconscious cultural”.
If they were willingly ignorant but also no cultural sexist, they wouldn’t be an issue.
So well you have a point, but I would say that the unconscious cultural sexism could lead to willfully ignorant and you would kinda expect it.
I am not saying, you are fully wrong about the willingly ignorant part, I just don’t think it would remove the cultural part.
One observation I made is that when women get to comprise a significant part of workforce in science, those things seem to be flatten out.
Working in the place and field (Russia, food technology) where women are about 50% of the workforce, I’ve never witnessed anything talked about here. Women are taken just as seriously on the position, they are promoted on par with men, they are in charge of many high-profile projects, and actively taking male and female students under scientific supervision. Any sort of workplace harassment will not just contribute to your potential termination, but will earn you very bad reputation - you’ll be seen as a dangerous weirdo no one wants to deal with.
One other observation I made is that international scientists often come from the position of entitlement, which is also weird to me. Male scientists tend to flaunt their position any time they can, and many of the female scientists tend to sort of mimic this behavior, but it feels different, like if they try to claw the attention they were consistently denied.
For me, it is weird and unnatural. Where I live and work, some baseline respect towards your more experienced superiors, male or female, is to be expected, is taught since school, and doesn’t require such performances. Students are not afraid to contact their superiors, but do it respectfully and with full understanding they take valuable time of a high-profile scientist. Why do people have to constantly fight for attention and respect in many other cultures is beyond me.
I share what others have said about your likely difficulty in seeing what’s going on around you. However.
I have a couple of female friends who moved as adults to US from Russia in the 80s. Both said they were shocked when they found out the things that weren’t soviet propaganda, like how women were treated day to day, and the systemic discrimination against racialized people. Neither of them is immune to racist or sexist bevahior, and now having lived here for so long even moreso, but there is a difference in baseline expectations at the macro scale. Years later they still express surprise when even the pretense of attempting equality is absent or made a joke.
That said I’ve met women and men from elsewhere in the former USSR (both older and especially younger than the above) who are very heteronormative and accept their “place” in hierarchy. I understand there was post-soviet backlash culturally. How do you view that? In the past 2-4 decades is there progress, regression or what? My point of view could be tainted by selection bias in terms of who chooses to move countries, and where they land.
The fact that Russia underwent a revolutionary transformation in the 20th C, from serf to industrial, when it could benefit from an existing articulation of gender inequalities, must take some credit for present equality, no? To have such a big material shake up, and at least with the goal of addressing the patriarchy. I dont think in the anglosphere we ever had that.
On your question: I haven’t lived in USSR (born in Russia already), but from what I could gather from relatives and older acquaintances, it was quite similar.
Generally good on workplace equality, quite some everyday/domestic sexism going both ways. One negative change in the workplace since the fall of USSR and rise in private enterprises is reluctancy of some bosses to select female employees, as they are feared to take maternity leave and be on the company’s budget. I wouldn’t say this happens everywhere, but it’s common enough to be notable.
The positive shift in the domestic part started about 2010’s, as new wave of feminism has been accepted by many in the Russian youth. Still, there are some issues on that front, particularly outside big cities.
In any case, the Soviet legacy clearly shows, and it sure has helped immensely, especially in the workplace.
That is horrible that anyone has to go through that.
And yet, the Supreme Court in the UK claims that trans people shouldn’t be afforded the same gender-based discrimination protections as their cis counterparts.
Discrimination is a social artifact, based on performed gender, not biological sex (whatever that means), as evidenced here.
here’s a related video from Angela Collier, if you want to read more about how women are treated in STEM
I discovered her channel a few months ago and binged almost all of it. She’s great!
Not in stem but the same thing happened to me. I used to be able to speak to a room and be heard. Now I need to raise my voice, sound a little whiney or bitchy or nobody hears me. Only my closest friend still asks me for advice or to share my knowledge. Used to happen all the time.
At least I pass. I got that going for me.
Transitioning to a point of passing in my understanding (mtf or ftm) comes with pros and cons.
I often think about this article as well when it comes to trans men’s negative experiences once accepted as men: www.newsweek.com/trans-man-broken-men-1817169
Of course there are good and bad aspects to any choice.
Trans man here to say that nobody needs to give any extra cred to MRA bullshit just because a trans person is saying it. I have also been through the full dude experience including profound loneliness. I likewise thought I was prepared but wasn’t. Its hard. I miss how things were before too.
I also know that in general, in 2025, all people are more isolated than 20 years ago. Furthermore, it is a known phenomena for a longtime that friendships are more difficult to cultivate as an adult. I doubt how different things would have turned out for me had I not transitioned.
I also know that the “distance” I now experience from women is a direct result of 20,000 years of patriarchal violence. Of course women relate to me as a potential threat; I am one. And without the presumed vulnerability I possessed as a woman, men relate accordingly. Of course.
At some point, as a trans guy, you need to stop leaning on your experience “as a former woman” to compare your life to, especially in the negative. Being 22 is not the same as 42 no matter what your gender presentation at any point. Many people experience nostalgia for their youth.
As a man, you get to feel safe, but you don’t get to be a nurturer or nurtured. You can speak up whenever you want, but not about your emotions, fears, or grief. You have the freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want, as long as that doesn’t involve anything feminine, which turns out to be many incredible things, like emotions, intentional parenting, grooming, baking, and so many other activities I’ve learned are too feminine.
Just as when cis guys make these complaints, I question this person’s definition of “you dont get to”. In fact the article describes him making a career out of doing so. Even specific instances of “going viral”, and the affirmative feedback he received. It seems that you do get to.
Which leads to pointing out that the whole thing is an advertisment for the author who is “a Professional Corporate Speaker and Stress Management Coach”.
And it has anti-trans hate material suggested items in the middle of it:
Trans man here to say that nobody needs to give any extra cred to MRA bullshit just because a trans person is saying it. I have also been through the full dude experience including profound loneliness. I likewise thought I was prepared but wasn’t. Its hard. I miss how things were before too.
I don’t think the author was giving credit to MRA bullshit. MRA’s seem to often hate women and I don’t think the article implies any hatred, if anything he still tries to essentially that men are the ones that need to put in the effort to push past toxic masculinity. Describing it as a problem to be fixed at the individual level rather than at systematic level. Saying "If I could advise men, it would be first to look inward. "
I also know that in general, in 2025, all people are more isolated than 20 years ago. Furthermore, it is a known phenomena for a longtime that friendships are more difficult to cultivate as an adult. I doubt how different things would have turned out for me had I not transitioned.
Suicide rates differ for a reason. It is far more painful to be a lonely man than a lonely woman. Men are very quick to self loathing.
I also know that the “distance” I now experience from women is a direct result of 20,000 years of patriarchal violence. Of course women relate to me as a potential threat; I am one. And without the presumed vulnerability I possessed as a woman, men relate accordingly. Of course.
We should have fewer male babies. It seems like it’d reduce the amount of fear and alienation in society. (I’m saying this in good faith, I’m serious.)
At some point, as a trans guy, you need to stop leaning on your experience “as a former woman” to compare your life to, especially in the negative. Being 22 is not the same as 42 no matter what your gender presentation at any point. Many people experience nostalgia for their youth.
Based on my own reading/discourse, trans women usually seem to feel very little youth nostalgia in comparison. They might complain that they’re older now, but that’s usually more of a melancholy over “what could have been” had they been AFAB.
Just as when cis guys make these complaints, I question this person’s definition of “you dont get to”. In fact the article describes him making a career out of doing so. Even specific instances of “going viral”, and the affirmative feedback he received. It seems that you do get to.
I’m pretty sure he was talking about social pressures. Sure, he got to because he was very motivated to push against that societal expectation, that doesn’t really mean that average men can get away with that unless they dedicate their whole career/life to it.
Which leads to pointing out that the whole thing is an advertisment for the author who is “a Professional Corporate Speaker and Stress Management Coach”.
I think calling it an advertisement is a stretch based only on that, but even if it was that doesn’t invalidate the point being made.
And it has anti-trans hate material suggested items in the middle of it:
I think that’s just because those are controversial yet related articles on Newsweek so their algorithm picked them. But yeah, those do seem to be especially trashy and obvious anti-trans articles. Its kind of gross that they ever ran on Newsweek to be honest…
Is it me or is this a uniquely American experience?
I loved in quite a few countries and I’ve never seen this kind of absurd behavior. Granted, in a man, but I’ve never seen a man cut off a woman like that just because she’s a woman, and I’ve never seen or heard comments even remotely about someone being “exotic”. I’ve heard questions like “ohh, and where are you from?” in genuine curiosity, which is fine, I’ve never noticed overt racism like that.
Sorry, but this sounds exactly like what male privilege is. Assuming that it doesn’t happen near you because you haven’t noticed it.
Ask your female friends what sorts of sexism they genuinely face regularly and I think you’ll learn a lot.
This is why I learned to stfu about experiences I don’t understand.
I say that as a person of color trying to explain my perspective and be given deer-in-headlights responses, or worse, dismissal and denial.
That is what I meant. I’ve never seen this behavior in meetings where someone just dismisses a woman/person of color/lgbt/etc just because.
I think this sort of behavior is especially prevalent in the US because even in Mexico guys didn’t behave like that.
Granted, i’m a man
you haven’t noticed racism and sexism because you are a male who’s the proper color for the region in which you reside.
male privilege and white privilege are often misunderstood to mean like “special privileges” and poopoo’d because plenty of white men struggle to get by in this world, but that’s not what it means.
it means the privilege of ‘being taken seriously’, the privilege of ‘benefit is the doubt’, privilege of ‘basic respect and decency’.
it also has the benefit/drawback of ‘privilege to be blind of misogyny/racism’. I believe you wholeheartedly when you say you’ve never seen it, but that’s the “privilege”.
The responsibility you hold in return for this “privilege” is you must believe the words of peeps who don’t share when they tell you their experiences. after all, why would you see these things? How else would you experience them when you aren’t directly a part of them?
'course you wouldn’t! That’s fine! Normal! why would you see them? those things aren’t directed at you. that’s really all the “privilege” is!
back to responsibility, be careful not to dismiss the words of people who have direct experiences of racism and sexism just because they don’t match your own. remember, these things aren’t directed at you!
have a good one
Dear God.
No, not what i meant.
I meant that I never saw other people behave like this in public, in group meetings, in the day to day lives.
I’m not dismissing anyone, don’t out words into my mouth. I was literally wondering if this issue is more prevalent in the US than in other countries because I haven’t worked in the US. Every time I read about this its the US.
In companies that I have worked or have owned I have never seen this behavior and I have never been made aware of it. My wife has never experienced.iy either. Haven’t seen this in Mexico, not in Canada either, not in Europe either. Mind you, these are personal experiences but I GOT EYES. I can see if someone behaves like an asshole and the only one single person that does come to mind in mexico, was a loud mouthed American who thought it okay to grab women’s breasts.
Stop nit with the male privilege thing. I don’t trample on your work, don’t trample on mine either
lol no.
I live in America and haven’t noticed this as a man, I assume the misogynists have enough self awareness to keep it somewhat out of sight. The last time I noticed something inappropriate, the person quietly left the company a few weeks later. I have no idea if it was related to what I saw, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
I 100% believe that it happens, it’s just not visible to me.
Usually its not explicit, but patterns happen can be seen. Sometimes its not obvious unless you are specifically looking for it or the one directly receiving the treatment.
Trans experiences are just one case where those patterns become a lot more obvious. I remember someone telling a story about how often transitioning, someone’s father and brother started giving football explanations to her as if she were new to the sport when she’d been just as involved for her entire life. Its not like they were intentionally trying to be malicious, but they clearly subconsciously decided “woman needs to be taught how ball game works” even when its someone who they previous thought of as a man and didn’t treat like that.
Of course cis women point out that same kind of treatment. And often people just think they’re imagining things.
Lol not from what I’ve heard about Italy
I lived in Mexico, arguably worse macho-wise, and even there men didn’t behave that shittily
Stem is still heavily dominated by Men, biology might be different as more woman are in bio than men are, and becoming more common in other stems. engineer and programming sitll gear towards men.
When I was a freshman before transition, I had a guy save my number and call me like 2 years after we had an intro engineering class (we spoke maybe once?) to ask me out on a date.
I think attractiveness plays a large part in a lot of this too, for both sexes.
Women work twice as hard for half the respect
Is this unique to women? Do men experience anything similar in women-dominated fields? I’m not actually sure what these may be; teaching, childcare, hair stylists? I realise this may make me sound misogynist, but I’m really clueless.
This must be another reason why conservatives are so afriad of trans people: they disprove their misogynistic assumptions.
I feel for OP. I really do. I want everyone to be treated as equals, honestly.
However, does OP even realize that their anecdotal experience _doesn’t even remotely satisfy the (heavy) burden of proof for their biased hypothesis?
In a blind study, everyone in a room going silent when a trans person talks is not necessarily experimentally a 1:1 to everyone in the room going silent when a biological male talks. MANY people that have transitioned (whether they want to admit it or not) have a noticeable difference in their vocal timbre than their biological counterparts. Maybe people went silent because they were fascinated by or fixated on the unusual timbre of the OP’s transitioned vocal cords. We will never know… and some of us realize that correlation does not equal causation.
Additionally, OP was in the same department for years and then transitioned. So, naturally people would approach a more experienced person for help or advice regardless of perceived sex if they knew that person was there longer than them.
Obviously there are differences between how men and women are treated…but OP seems to be using the worst possible anecdotes to provide proof for their hypothesis without correcting for these sometimes subtle inconsistencies. Maybe OP thinks they pass as a male a lot more convincingly than they actually do.
telling someone they look exotic is insane
Ah welcome to a man’s world, It’s going to be really fun for you
Is that bias confirmation or is it confirmation bias? I get them mixed up.
undeadotter@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
The experiences trans men and women have with misogyny will never not be fascinating to me. Like, for the first time ever we have this huge sample size of people who have experienced how their gender presentation affects how people interact with them, giving tangible proof of misogyny in action. And it can’t just be swept aside with ‘MaYbE tHe wOmEn JuSt miSuNDerStOoD’ or ‘mAYbe tHe mAN diDN’t MeAn iT LiKE tHaT’. I mean idiots will still make idiot arguments but at least it chips away at them a little bit.
ArmoredThirteen@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Hello it’s me a trans woman. I knew before transition about some of it but never really understood. When I was masc I didn’t realize how much of it was basically hidden in plain sight because of how I learned to socialize. After transitioning though omg it’s everywhere. I’m in Seattle right now where I don’t have to try too hard to pass and still get treated at least base line okay. Even then I still use my masc voice more than my femme voice because people take me more seriously when I do. Like there’s a cultural acceptance of trans people here but if I behave more masc I get the privilege of being “one of the boys” even if I’m visually in full femme mode. It’s all so weird
eestileib@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
I told one of my friends that I’m being looked at differently in crowds now, and he just said “no you’re imagining it”.
Many people just do not believe what trans people tell them. At all.
barsoap@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
In that specific case it might’ve been an answer to “Do you look at me differently now”, brains like to short-circuit like that, and not everybody is comfortable speaking for the tribe. “Does the tribe like me?” – “Well I do” – “Does the tribe?” – “I’m not the tribe”.
insaneinthemembrane@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Women aren’t believed, are you a trans woman? If so it could be either that you’re a woman or that you’re trans.
Wanderer@lemm.ee 2 weeks ago
Honestly people are probably just looking at you wondering if you are trans.
SoftestSapphic@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Religon is probably what initially does this to people’s brains
Indoctrinating children into systems of arbitrary hierarchy gives little boys god complexes and makes little girls into property.
HK65@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Depends on where you are from, but the sort of thinking that gets people into religion gets people into misogyny even without religion in my experience.
ReputedlyDeplorable@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Oh my goodness yes! Not to mention the whole if you don’t dress “modestly” it’s your fault if you get unwanted attention thing. It’s a grooming ground.
Rentlar@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
I feel bad for female-presenting people having experienced being treated worse than their male peers. I didn’t grow up religious or anything, but I can sense where I could be perpetuating that hidden misogyny myself.
For example: In work and social life, I’ll give my phone number away to people I meet. But I’m not interested in relationships, so I’m far less likely to give it to women, since I don’t want anyone to think I’m trying to make any kind of sexual advances by doing that.
I’m pretty sure for men that aren’t outright misogynist jerks or bullies, it’s stuff like that where they feel as if they might be viewed as awkward providing professional favours to women when they wouldn’t think twice about it for their male peers. That leads to those experiences that women find themselves unable to receive those opportunities to get ahead in their career, or aren’t listened to, or have to advocate their position more when career advancement seems to fall more naturally to men.
OccultIconoclast@reddthat.com 2 weeks ago
I’m female presenting. I’ve known people who thought I was a cis woman for months, and I don’t keep being nonbinary or trans a secret.
When I read actual cis women’s accounts of misogyny, and also trans women’s accounts, I can’t relate. I don’t get shut down the same way. Somehow, despite others perceiving me as female, I kept the tiny part of gender presentation that tells people to sit down and shut up when I’m talking as if I were a man. I don’t understand what it is, but I still have it the same as before I transitioned.
I would love to know what it is so I can share it, but I can’t tell why people respect me as much as they would respect a man. It’s bewildering.
insaneinthemembrane@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
You could be lucky too or maybe you don’t notice the microaggressions.
ddash@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Confidence goes a long way, but maybe that is simplifying the experience too much.