aesthetics. people will perceive the aesthetics.
startship troopers is a good example. it satirizes fascism but has the aesthetics of fascism, so thats what people perceive.
the boys was the same when conservatives liked homelander.
Why People Don’t Catch The Politics In Their Favorite Games
Submitted 5 months ago by Goronmon@lemmy.world to games@lemmy.world
https://aftermath.site/aftermath-hours-podcast-final-fantasy-helldivers-politics
Comments
umbrella@lemmy.ml 5 months ago
FozzyOsbourne@lemm.ee 5 months ago
If you liked the guy who murders a load of civilians in like the second episode then I don’t think you can pretend it’s because he’s handsome!
umbrella@lemmy.ml 5 months ago
the ‘good guys’ go in murderous rampages all the time. its just usually framed as a good thing. ‘oh those were evil!’
intensely_human@lemm.ee 5 months ago
It’s his piercing eyes
peopleproblems@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I see a Helldiver I up vote.
For Liberty!
But on a serious note, something as obvious as “Managed Democracy” and quitting your job by signing up for “Early Biovat Reprocessing” and the characters literally saying things like “HELLDIVERS NEVER DIE!” Before being obliterated by a 380? It’s satire. Satire is funny. Like hahaha look at stupid Facist regime, I’ll role play along to get into the mood of the game because the idea is so fucking dumb it’s funny with amazing gameplay.
It’s willful ignorance at some point. I don’t think media literacy has much to do with it. It’s simply listening for what they want to hear, then ignoring the rest, just as real facists desire.
bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 5 months ago
I’m pretty sure it would be impossible to play a game like Spec Ops: The Line or Bioshock and miss the political message
teft@lemmy.world 5 months ago
People watch star trek and listen to fortunate son and miss the message in both of those pieces of art so I’m pretty sure someone would miss the political message in just about anything.
DampSquid@feddit.uk 5 months ago
…and Starship Troopers, and every song by Rage Against the Machine…
bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 5 months ago
Music and film don’t demand that you engage with them in the same way as video games. There are some games where you literally cannot play them without engaging with their narrative and message. Spec Ops: The Line is a good example of this. It actively pushes back against the player’s natural inclination to play it like a modern military shooter and not absorb the message.
maynarkh@feddit.nl 5 months ago
Russians had flown out singers to Ukraine singing Gruppa Krovi to the soldiers. This shit goes across cultures.
Kaboom@reddthat.com 5 months ago
They might not be missing the message. Its reasonable to think “this is just the writers opinion, it wouldnt work out this way irl”
Artyom@lemm.ee 5 months ago
It’s actually very possible to miss the message of Bioshock. Andrew Ryan built the perfect city and Atlas ruined it. Andrew Ryan cast him out, but Atlas brought thr player character as his final ultimate weapon. You eventually rebel, saving the capitalist Utopia.
I have seen people who abided by this interpretation. Any art with any level of subtlety can be misinterpreted. It’s inherently subjective and depends on the viewer’s personal biases.
drislands@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Capitalist utopia? Isn’t the whole point that it’s a Libertarian utopia?
elbucho@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I think you’re severely overestimating the average intelligence of the population.
deranger@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
I dunno how you could miss it in Spec Ops, that game is extremely blatant with messaging. I recently patient gamered it and was rather unimpressed. Bioshock still holds up though.
bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 5 months ago
IMO it was a mistake to patient gamer Spec Ops. The whole point was that it was a pushback against the rhetoric of the US military and simultaneously a critique of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, which had just exploded in popularity. By not playing it when the things it was critiquing were in the zeitgeist, you don’t really get the same experience. Plus, the marketing for the game deliberately hid the fact that it was intended as a critique; it was marketed as yet another modern military shooter.
Nima@leminal.space 5 months ago
Maybe because most people experience the art? and don’t feel the need to inflate their ego by thinking their interpretation or experience is the best way to interpret something?
this feels like a bunch of nerds sitting around complaining that gamers miss stuff, while not understanding that most gamers don’t miss it. they just experience it and don’t feel the need to externalize it.
Freeman@lemmings.world 5 months ago
Imo its the other way around. If you experience art, you think about it and try to get a meaning out of it (even if there is none, as in some modern art pieces). But if you just play a game you are not getting the art-aspect of it, you just enjoy it for the gameplay or maybe even the story but not for the deeper meaning.
HiT3k@midwest.social 5 months ago
Absolutely. If the value of art were just “experiencing” it without processing it, there’s an argument to be made that soulless blockbuster movies are as significant a piece of art as something with actual substance because so many people like the “experience.”
People who do more than just “consume” the art in front of them are not just self righteous nerds (though many are, sure)… it’s also a prerequisite to, you know, actually creating something of artistic value.
Nima@leminal.space 5 months ago
how do you know I’m not appreciative of the art as I’m playing?
I’ve seen quite a lot of symbolism, meaning, and expressions through video games. but not every video game is made for artistic expression. they can be, to great effect IMHO.
either way, how the art is experienced is entirely up to the individual player. and there’s no definitive way to experience art. that… kind of defeats the purpose of art, ya know?
intensely_human@lemm.ee 5 months ago
No, art is not for thinking. Books are for thinking. Art is for experiencing.
lath@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Neat stuff.
That part’s wild to me, when people are like “This villain in your story seems to have said and done bad things? So that means you agree with them, yes?” No! Of course not! It’s the literal villain in the story, man!
But there is no utilitarian point of art. It exists to express ideas and to tell truth. I think maybe a lot of people get upset because from their point of view, they are paying money, and they have this relationship where it’s like “If it’s not giving me what I wanted out of this transaction, then it’s bad.”
Justas@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
To be honest, “If it’s not giving me what I wanted out of this transaction, then it’s bad.” is a heuristic that works well for most things we buy. If I buy candy and it doesn’t taste good, it’s bad. If I buy a car and it breaks down, it’s bad.
I think the real problem is that some people see games as a product and others see it as an art piece. Some games fail at being either, some succeed at both.
lath@lemmy.world 5 months ago
A thread of the problem is likely the publisher/developer conflict of interest. When the two can’t come to an agreement, the end result usually fails horribly in both aspects.
Stamau123@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I hate those people who take content for validation. If I have a nazi in my story I am not, myself, also a nazi.
Wooki@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Don’t go to the article, it’s click bait garbage
RageAgainstTheRich@lemmy.world 5 months ago
A lot of people are just… not so bright. I remember seeing the video of all those trump supporters rocking out to “killing in the name of” by rage against the machine. Waving a thin blue line and american flag around with the lyrics blasting in the background.
Its the same with that new game Helldivers 2. Zero awareness.
HauntedCupcake@lemmy.world 5 months ago
It’s more that when the writing is bad something is perceived as “political”, as the insert of whatever political messaging is being used comes out of nowhere and smacks the player like a cudgel. That’s what most gamers have a problem with, obviously there’s a loud minority that rage about stupid shit like Jesse Faden being too masculine. But that’s not what most people are talking about.
Games need to tackle these issues head on and fully integrate them into the world, not just tack on preachy dialog that doesn’t make sense within the wider game world.
FFXV is blatantly about slavery and no one really complained, it’s not exactly peak fiction, but they at least had everything contained within the world.
New Vegas is the best example, it’s simply written well and gives the player agency.
Death Stranding did a great job of both integrating it’s themes directly into the world, and also tackling them head on without any remorse.
Helldivers is so ludicrously full on and absolutely dripping with it’s pro fascist ideology that everyone knows what they’re getting into from the intro video, and then the game starts adding texture and “are we the baddies” energy straight away.
Fucking Disco Elysium is near universally praised by the wider gaming audience, and I don’t even think it needs to explain how that one is political.
It’s the same reason why most ideologically driven media is cringe as fuck. Christian media being a prime example, it’s contrived slop that doesn’t make sense within its own story. Like God’s Not Dead and it’s illogical legal system built on feels and Shapiro logic.
Who remembers the weird pro-life Doctor Who episode? That was bizarre and out of place. The characters stopped acting like themselves for the sake of whatever message it wanted to get across. It just felt really out of place.
The Last of Us Part 2 to label the most controversial example, had periods of good and bad writing, but focusing in on the “violence bad” part of it’s messaging, it completely missed the mark. Giving the characters names that they shout was just hilarious, and having Ellie repeatedly kill dogs whilst Abbie pets them was just so hamfisted. Then making the gameplay violent and fun just divorced it further.
In short,
gamerspeople love politics invideo gamesmedia, they hate hamfisted preaching invideo gamesmediaSkyezOpen@lemmy.world 5 months ago
The drama with helldivers was because fascists saw the over the top campy depiction of fascism and unironically agreed with it. They had no idea they were the ones being lampooned. You should look at the reactions when they found out the devs were actually not fascists. They were distraught.
HauntedCupcake@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Please could you provide some examples? I’ve legitimately never seen someone upset at the devs for not literally being fascists.
If I have to go out of my way to find this, I’m assuming it falls under the “loud” minority group. I’m sure these people exist, but it’d surprise me if they made up a significant amount of the over 11 million players
Boiglenoight@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I think this person means non partisan, because Metal Gear Solid is filled with political intrigue.
Kaboom@reddthat.com 5 months ago
Has anyone actually seen anyone actually complain about having politics in games, and not just obnoxious politics, like Specs Ops where they force you to kill civilians and then act like your the bad guy because you wanted to see the content you paid for? If you dont give us a choice to be good, and if you’re super preachy about it, then its just bad writing.
Look at New Vegas, plenty of politics, but you get to make choices, and its not preachy at all. Then look at the Last of Us 2, where they force you to kill a dog the other character petted, and it comes off as blatant emotional manipulation. Which game is widely considered a masterpeice?
Quetzalcutlass@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Spec Ops actually did have choices where you could be good, but ironically people missed them because they didn’t think it’d work.
For example, at one point you’re being harassed by an angry mob of locals. A lot of players simply shot them because a lifetime of experience with shooters told them that no other input would be recognized. But in actuality, if you fired warning shots at the ground or over their heads, the civilians would flee without incident.
Kaboom@reddthat.com 5 months ago
I didnt know that. After the forced willie pete bit, I thought all the other bits were forced too. Specs op unintentionally set a rule “if theres a choice, youll be forced to take the evil one” which made the entire thing feel obnoxious.
squid_slime@lemm.ee 5 months ago
This misses the point of spec ops the line
Kaboom@reddthat.com 5 months ago
What, war is bad and glorifying war is bad? The point has been made, no one missed it. Its just wasnt worth mentioning.
otp@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
Has anyone actually seen anyone actually complain about having politics in games
Yes. Under this post, too.
I even remember people complaining about re-releases that had disclaimers that the game has racially insensitive enemies.
People will complain about anything.
Kaboom@reddthat.com 5 months ago
Where under this post? Cuz I dont see it.
dunestorm@lemmy.world 5 months ago
People play games for escapism, not to be reminded of politics. Not every story needs deep political roots, people just want to have fun and forget about real world bullshit.
Goronmon@lemmy.world 5 months ago
That’s why my favorite book is Moby Dick. No froo-froo symbolism, just a good, simple tale about a man who hates an animal.
joneskind@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I like your style
intensely_human@lemm.ee 5 months ago
One of my favorite lines ever
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 months ago
It’s not a very popular opinion it seems but I agree, I rather like a bit of mindless escapism sometimes, not everything has to teach me a lesson, sometimes things can be just fun. Not that we can’t have both, of course.
BowtiesAreCool@lemmy.world 5 months ago
And that also doesn’t mean you can discredit the message of a game just because you don’t like it or want to engage in it. But so many people play a game with a strong political message, and then complain constantly how it’s ruined by it. Okay so don’t play it play something else.
Wahots@pawb.social 5 months ago
I kinda assumed people understood the messages behind Battlefield 1, Death Stranding, and Helldivers 2, lol. Most of the messages are telegraphed pretty clearly.
Agora@discuss.tchncs.de 5 months ago
16 Final Fantasy Games and the Earth is still getting consumed by us.
Ephera@lemmy.ml 5 months ago
I feel like it also has to do with lots of games featuring elements of (or full-blown) violence as part of their regular gameplay loop.
Yeah, in Helldivers 2, you’re committing genocide for insidious political reasons. But in Pokémon, you’re committing genocide, because you’re a ten year old and your neighbor gifted you a pet.Normally, the genocide part would be the very obvious red flag for something political going on. Instead, you need to be aware of why precisely you’re doing the genocide this time around.
Such genocide elements are usually also paired with fun gameplay (because violence is easy to translate into gameplay), and with a terrible story, so it’s understandable that people would skip all the story elements.
Badeendje@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Jeez, I wish I could downvote you twice.
Conflating Pokemon and genocide really reduces the value of genocide. That it might be a tongue in cheek accusation towards our livestock and animal treatments … but genocide.
Like calling everyone Hitler and a nazi.
Boozilla@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I think this explains at least part of the phenomenon…
benignintervention@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Guilty as charged. I’ve played hundreds of hours of souls games and all I know about the lore is that souls are money
Jarix@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Now compare that narrative experience the Super Mario Bros.
Im sure it’s been done, but i would love to see interpretations of a First Time User Experience of OG mario if it came out today.
I cant tell you how many games ive just noped out of because i just want to actually play the game and not read or listen to either dialogue or forced tutorial railroading.
Even character creation can impede just wanting to get started. Let me come back later, or engage with that as i PLAY the game. Injecting extensive dialogue or forced interactive tutorial should be a reward or a much appreciated rest from the action, not a burden i must bare
NocturnalMorning@lemmy.world 5 months ago
My friend has told me to watch a bunch of YouTube videos for the lore. It’s apparently very deep.
Chickenstalker@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Do we always want to play as the good guys? Are all actors to be prohibited from portraying bad guys? Is all media going to end up like Barney the Purple Dinosaur episodes? Games, movies, books, songs are supposed to be entertaining.
KingThrillgore@lemmy.ml 5 months ago
Gamers are not very smart, and they are the most readily twisted by alt right deception brokers.
morriscox@lemmy.world 5 months ago
what is your art if it’s not engaging with the issues of the time? What is your art if you’re claiming that it’s not political? Because the point of art is to tell the truth, and you’re lying.
Say what? Are they referring to just a specific type of art, like political art?
Kolanaki@yiffit.net 5 months ago
Man… Read the title as “Politicians” at first and was like “I could have been teabagging Trump and not even know it.”
Cybersteel@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Most gamers are fkin stupid that’s the reason. Radicalised by the right and don’t recognize political themes right in front of them.
brsrklf@jlai.lu 5 months ago
Okay, I’m all for good, complete education, but blaming people not understanding media on “too much STEM” is a bit ridiculous.
ChicoSuave@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I dunno. Math asks me to just accept it’s normal to have 60 watermelons and is trying move bulk orders of melons on a regular car. The goal is to figure out the problem and not accept that the person who is a wholesale watermelon dealer in denial is commiting tax evasion.
Or to discover that the melon seller has a regular job in ag and gets a bunch of melons on the side from the field and sells the harvest at cost to make up the part of their paycheck that was paid in perishable food.
Should we claim the seller for breaking the law or sympathize for being forced into that situation? People don’t have the energy to care; they just came for a maths question.
brsrklf@jlai.lu 5 months ago
Sorry, dude, what you said must have been very interesting, but at some point I just stopped reading to optimize a watermelon workflow instead. Weird.
fushuan@lemm.ee 5 months ago
but… this is not the math you see at STEM, this is the math you see at high school at best. There’s no deeper meaning in actual STEM math problems, they are way too abstract or specific. There’s no watermelons, it’s just some a, b, n1, nk… maybe some physics formulas that apply to velocity, mass… I read 0 problems in my uni math and physics courses where they used real world examples.
I see your point but that’s for high schoolers, not STEM students or alumnus.