There are 30 million jobs making $15 or below. It is mathematically impossible for all or even half to get higher wage jobs.
Minimum wage isn't survivable anymore
Submitted 2 weeks ago by sanitation@lemmy.today to workreform@lemmy.world
https://lemmy.today/pictrs/image/03e3bcda-71ba-4689-911a-cc2ed29f3928.jpeg
Comments
anon_8675309@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
ivanafterall@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I understand your thinking, but I think the argument is to RAISE the minimum wage. So all 30 million of those people you referenced would get better-paying jobs immediately.
anon_8675309@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Yes. But the opposition to raising minimum wage is usually that those people should just get better jobs. My point was that argument is invalid as it’s not possible.
uber_chicken@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It’s isn’t and that’s the point. They keep you down so you can’t so anything about whats happening.
That’s why they hated covid lockdown because people had more time to do what they wanted and they realised that’s what life is supposed to be
blockheadjt@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Lots of places, minimum wage won’t even take you that far. Big city or nearby suburb? Forget it.
HerbGrower@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
Meanwhile in a country with a reasonable minimum wage, approx £1800/month take home pay.
£900 mortgage, £180 council tax, £80 electricity, £22 internet, £5 phone, £60 food.
Water is paid twice a year, averages out to like £10 a month, its cheap enough I don’t pay much attention to it.
So about £500-600 left.
But I live with my partner, so half all of those costs by splitting it. Double phone/food.
A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
This is also why the powers that be drug their heels and took 10 years to implement the 15 dollar minimum wage.
because htey knew that by the time they did, it would solve nothing due to inflation and cost of living rises.
So they got the brownie points for passing it, but still have the desperate, manipulable base thats one bad month away from losing everything.
HerbGrower@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
If you are 1 bad month away from losing everything why are you making £400/month car payments. Over £200 a month on food delivery. £90 a month phone contract. £150 a month on TV and streaming services.
These are real people I know. Like yeah the economy isn’t great but you are not helping yourself. Cut back a bit and you could easily build up enough savings to cover several months if something bad was to happen.
Actually suggesting these things to people is really difficult though. They immediately become defensive and try to justify all these luxuries as needs.
melsaskca@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Sorry, but people better than you need that yacht money. /s
crystalmerchant@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Answer: it’s not sustainable
UPGRAYEDD@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
The crazy part: its propped up by the ultra wealthy in a country with more guns than people. When this shit does hit the fan, the violence will be on another level.
unitedwithme@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
And just think, iirc 19 States still utilize federal minimum wage… So, less than half of $15/hr.
betelplouf@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Rent 1200$?? How much is your real estate market fucked up?
grayclouds@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
That’s very low for the US
VitoRobles@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
$1200 is a studio apartment in a regular neighborhood these days. Or a 2bdroom in fucking nowhere.
betelplouf@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Oh my, sounds soo expensive
FatherPeanut@pawb.social 2 weeks ago
That’s about right from my experience in the midwestern USA. Went looking at options for apartments in this area alongside a lesser populated area prior to moving here at the start of this year. I’m not in some high-income zone, it’s predominantly1. manufacturing around here. My place costs 1451/mo, and it was the cheapest I could find out of the options I was open to accepting. I recall seeing options as cheap as 1130/mo, but those were apartments in a reeeeeeallly sketchy area, and I can’t say I was particularly open to that if I have the option to go elsewhere.
betelplouf@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Indeed that seems really expensive from a western european point of view, I wish we could speak more about this when we talk about the US economy, and not the GDP growth being higher or some other dumb things. Europe often sees the US as an economic compass, but I couldn’t tell your situation was so worrying before signing up on Lemmy.
To comparison, my income has been 460€ per month (social scholarship) for a long time, my rent being around 200€ but with the allowances I was only paying 40. And the minimum wages here is 1477€ net (around 9€ per hour), so I was very very poor.
With healthcare, I could take care of my chronic illness without spending anything, and I could eat pretty normally and even have some hobbies. Since uni is free for poor people (170€ per year for everyone else), I didn’t have to pay for anything aside from my classic expenses.
With a full time work, you’re litterally poorer than an alone ill student without any other income than social allowance in france.
I hope your situation will get better, go unionize and that kind of stuff, don’t stay alone, and a big good luck
AviAdi@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
In honor of labor day and all those who sacrificed for better working conditions I’ve been thinking of ways to make our voices heard. I think protesting at FAA air traffic facilities is a great option. If we keep controllers from accessing their jobs the air space shuts down. This would be a huge blow to Trump!
Let me explore how we organize these protests. The beauty is most of these employees are sick of going to work because they HATE TRUMP! They just need to see the public is on their side and we need to give them a reason to not show up for work! Air traffic controllers think their duty is to go to work and pretend everything is normal, if we protest right in front of them they will know the public wants them to act!
We will also not hurt the individual. The air traffic centers where there is a higher volume of controllers are paid very well. They also have great union benefits. Including leave pay called “weather leave”, which is usually time paid for absence from work due to adverse conditions. Well protests right outside their workplace is an adverse condition and the union will make sure the federal government pays the individual if they can’t make it to work!
So how do we organize this. I think we should target the air traffic centers “ARTCC”. These are large radar facilities where 100+ employees work every day. They have one gate access point. You can start off small, just on the sidewalk with signage expressing that serving Trump is shitting on the Constitution (this is a common debate between federal employees now) This can be as small as 1 person just out there on the sidewalk peacefully holding up a sign. Totally legal.
Now if we have enough numbers we can start “crossing the street” protests. Pedestrians legally are allowed to cross the street in front of the entrances to these centers and we can utilize slow walking speeds to delay entry to employees. Usually this should be done between 6-9am and 2-6pm as those are shift change hours.
Finally a lot of controllers may find other reasons to not show up to work. Emotional distress, lack of sleep, or fatigue are all Union protected reasons controllers could get PAID time off while we the people protest against the trump regime. Once the administration is deposed the worker individual can return to work normally with little impact to their financial situation!
So now the locations of the centers:
This is the issue, they are typically located outside city areas. So I don’t expect huge numbers of people showing up but like I said, 1 or 2 people protesting is still worth it! en.wikipedia.org/…/List_of_U.S._Air_Route_Traffic…
So this is my protest idea. It’s one way to affect Trump adversely, a lot of federal employees are sick of this shit, THEY JUST NEED A REASON SO LET’S SHOW THEM WE WANT THEM TO FUCK TRUMP OVER
So you read all this and you’re still thinking “oh well nothing near me and I can’t do much” Well you probably do have a FAA airport near you with a control tower, you can protest there, or many other agencies that are run by the federal government. Finally you can copy this and spread it. You can edit it if you need to but just spread this idea.
Life in the USA cannot continue to go on as if this is all normal, something has to break! It’s Labor day weekend as I write this, let’s demonstrate labor still has the fucking power!
doingthestuff@lemy.lol 2 weeks ago
Uh, no.
victorz@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
What is the definition of “getting ahead”, if you don’t mind?
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
I’ll venture a guess: I’d personally define it as so called “gainful employment”, as in, if you’re not blowing all your money frivelously, you should be making enough to reasonably sandbag against disaster or improve your own circumstances by saving.
But everything sure is upside down. Assuming somebody makes enough to get by comfortably, savings accounts don’t outpace inflation, so if you don’t want your hard earned money decaying year over year (and faster, lately!) this forces you to put your money into the stock market, which is a whole complicated game with esoteric rules and a high possibility that your deposit might be worth way less if you need to pull that money.
So I guess “getting ahead” can be: “Still coming out relatively positive after various powerful and interested parties have coerced our funds into their pockets.”
victorz@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Yeah that’s pretty interesting actually, the whole money decay thing in your bank account. I hadn’t thought of that before you mentioned it.
umbrella@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
this is sustainable because we let them do it to us
lookitsjustin@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Minimum wage here in Alberta, Canada remains $15/hr. and hasn’t changed since 2018. That’s eight years. Absolutely insane now that I’ve looked it up, fuck me.
FatherPeanut@pawb.social 2 weeks ago
Not gonna lie, the numbers people sometimes pull up for similar arguments are usually fudged in some way, but not a single number they used sounds wrong.
15 an hour isn’t unheard of, minimum for my state isn’t even close to that, some of my coworkers make that. Rent for my place is much more. I spend way more on food, bills, utilities, etc. I’m not in a very high-income or high-cost place, it’s the outskirts of a small industrial city, and I’d say those numbers are skewed to cost less than what they actually wind up costing me.
heartSagan5@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Loan sharks love this desperation of that $23-33/mo in the budget for clothes, etc.
That’s why the 2008 Recession occurred, the subprime mortgage – people who were risky to begin with were cut mortgages; the liquidity of the bottom workers flopped, and it echoed up the financial food chain. And it’s predatory as hell. The same shit happens to student loans. Students yearn for higher education to improve their lives, and when they leave, they can’t find jobs so the liquidity flops again. The problem with education debt is that it is non-dischargable; you can’t go bankrupt on student loans. WTF!!!
noxypaws@pawb.social 2 weeks ago
“anymore” was 20 years ago
SabinStargem@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
For my argument, assume that the American Dollar has utterly failed, and a new currency is invented. The numbers make much more sense in an engineered economy, rather than one that has inherited technical debt from millennia of worker-employer relations.
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I think the way forward is to rework income to be a floor and ceiling, with jobs being assigned ranks. By doing this, we can limit the maximum amount of money that people can make - and in turn, the economy will ‘rubberband’, according to what income brackets that goods and services are priced for.
A national review board sets what rank a job class falls into. East coast, west coast, Hawaii, all the same exact pay annually. Workers don’t negotiate for higher pay with their employers, and the employers can’t set standards or expectations for what they pay. This prevents employers from abusing people through ‘circumstances’, or using promotions as a stick, and so on.
Ranks are based on the effort, risk, and knowledge that a role entails. The national board uses research to determine what a job type requires asks of people.
Below is an example of what I would like rankings to be.
- Rank 0 - Citizens get a UBI of $10,000 annually. This is replaced by other ranks when working.
- Rank S - Students receive $10,000 to $20,000 according to grades. All levels of education pay money.
- Rank 1 - Waiters and cashiers, receive $20,000 annually.
- Rank 2 - Managers, sex workers, caretakers, game developers, journalists. $40k.
- Rank 3 - $60k. Delivery drivers, nurse, soldiers outside of warzones, teachers, crop pickers.
- Rank 4 - $80k. Scientists, Doctors, engineers, warzone soldiers (disabled veterans get a better UBI).
- Rank 5 - Astronauts, lumberjacks, firefighters, surgeons, advanced researchers, get $100,000 annually.
Leadership positions give Rank 2 during the first three months after being voted into place, but workers below the leader vote for pay rank, and may also elect to remove the leadership position or to replace the person there. So worker satisfaction is tied to whether or not a leader gets a decent income.
On top of that, everybody should get a fixed amount of hours they may work each day. If they work even just an hour, they still get a full day’s pay. Each worker is capped at 9 hours a day, and can only do 5 days of work a week. 45 hours total each week.
People earn a 1:1 ratio of retirement benefits based on hours worked for a given rank. So someone who worked a full year at Rank 1 has $20,000 in benefits paid by the workplace. These benefits are only in effect when going on paid vacation, sick leave, fired, or in retirement. A business that goes under or is bought, has its obligations passed to government or to the new owner. Citizenship UBI is replaced by benefit income ranks, starting with the best payout rank.
Companies that use AI to displace workers, have to pay into a government fund. This fund is used to give ranked UBI to citizens, paying them for a job they can no longer obtain. A company’s limit on wealth and assets is based on employee headcount or the amount of citizen UBI it is paying for, anything beyond the limit is 100% confiscated by government, with penalties if the excess is found to be deliberate. Local and federal government split the confiscation 50-50.
Individual people have limits on liquid wealth and assets. Non-citizens have $50,000 caps on each pool, and a citizen a $100,000 cap for each. Any amount of wealth beyond these limits are confiscated by the government. This helps prevent the development of millionaires and billionaires.
Hypothetically, the ‘banding’ of incomes like this would also prevent or mitigate inflation, because wealth distortions and labor manipulation would be curtailed. By making incomes predictable, the markets can price goods accordingly.
ebc@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
Interesting ideas. A few comments:
- I think this still ties too much of a person’s income to employment. I’d personally prefer a much more aggressive UBI (like around 80-100k in today’s dollars), with heavy progressive taxes (up to 100%) on any other income. The idea is that with advances in productivity and automation, there’s just not enough jobs for everyone, and that’s a good thing. It frees us from actually having to work.
- inflation is actually a good thing. It discourages just hoarding money under a mattress, and encourages re-investment.
SabinStargem@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
I have a slide deck that includes taxes and whatnot. They are divided into two pieces for individuals: “Social” and “Cultural” tax. The Social Tax pays for roads and other communal goods, with taxpayers being able to use an app or website to assign what projects the money goes towards: Potholes for a certain street, playgrounds, ect. The cultural tax is a form of crowdfunding, where the taxpayer can assign the tax towards projects that promote culture - festivals, games in development, TV shows, ect. Failure of the taxpayer to earmark their taxes, has the government using them as a discretionary fund.
The way I figure, this encourages individuals to think about their society, and gives them a pool of money that they can’t spend on themselves. The government gets the bulk of its discretionary taxes from the regulation of companies.
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The system I outlined, already forces people to not hoard money: The absolute caps on wealth and assets makes them inclined to spend their money, else it would overflow, and that excess collected by the government. We want people to have enough money to have a big buffer for major expenses, while also encouraging regular spending.
Plus, universal services and free generic goods encourages the spending of money. People will focus their funds towards what they want, and be economical in the spots they don’t care about. This is a bit different from what we have today, because people are obligated to pay for their food, utilities, goods, services, and so on. By offering free but boring options, society allows people to focus their investments on the things that interest them.
Neverbeaten@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
If the children are our future and we truly believe that, then teachers should be in the top rank of pay.
SabinStargem@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
Unfortunately, there is an issue with making teachers the highest paying job: the sheer number of them needed. The system would probably break under that. 😕
Trev625@sopuli.xyz 2 weeks ago
Personally, I feel like the gap is too large between the top earners and the bottom earners. The minimum is 10% of the maximum. And this is cumulative so every year that passes the rich are getting richer. I am fine with a system where people who do more for society make more currency but the wealth divide shouldn’t be this drastic IMHO.
SabinStargem@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
Today’s American elite have considerably greater wealth gaps than what I described for the system. There is roughly a 400% to 1,100% difference between a minimum wage worker and an executive, before considering things like stocks and options.
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Since there are absolute wealth caps and the rule is that only one income stream can be active, there is essentially a soft limit on accumulating benefits. People who earn enough benefits from work, are likely to retire or go on vacation - which leaves a vacuum for other people to fill up, who in turn earn enough benefits to move on, and repeat. The people with stockpiled benefits also create opportunities for new businesses to crop up, since they would need things to keep them busy - an ambition, touring to see the land, activities, and so forth. This creates jobs due to demand, thus creating new upper ranks that need to be filled.
Students earn money from learning, which means they can comfortably obtain the qualifications to obtain better paying ranks. Thus, there are many people who can enter the upper ranks. Due to universal services, people can wait for jobs without danger - and people who work, can leave jobs if the work conditions suck. So there is a lot more mobility for income seekers.
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While I very much doubt that the proposed Universal Living system to be an panacea, the important thing is to enact something considerably better than what we currently have. Perfection isn’t the goal, since that requires a lot more understanding of economics than humanity has learned up to this point.
ramble81@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
This lines up pretty well where I live and I’m in a major metro area (San Antonio). Rent would get you something pretty small though but not impossible. Food, phone and internet are about spot on for what I pay currently. Utilities for a small studio/1br track about there. Transportation is a bit off depending on if you own a car or not.
But regardless, even if the numbers are close, it just drives the point home that much more.
nathan@lem.permisuan.com 2 weeks ago
But minimum wage is 7.25 in tx
TransNeko@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
minimum wage in every state is $7.25 due to it being the federal minimum wage. it’s just that a few blue states made local laws making non-federal jobs have a higher state minimum wage in cities (emphasis on cities only). – but these states also raised the city tax to compensate which cancels out half of the minimum wage raise.
but it’s better than red states where many filthy republicans have been trying to introduce laws lowering the minimum wage while still increasing taxes.
Treczoks@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It is more than sustainable. For those who profit off this.
ivanafterall@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Silver lining!
LemmyBruceLeeMarvin@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
[stares in Marxist materialist analysis]
Quexotic@infosec.pub 2 weeks ago
And here you see the purpose in the design.
NutWrench@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Also, do you really NEED sleep?
ulterno@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
I just did the math and I don’t get even $15/hr.
Glad that my transportation cost is under $25 and rent is 6x less than that value.
Oh, and food costs are 1/3 of that, as long as I cook myself.But yeah, getting anything imported, would hurt the bank balance.
doingthestuff@lemy.lol 2 weeks ago
If your rent is that low you’re clearly not in the US. Why would people with rock bottom cost of living need higher wages? Sounds like you’re living like a king compared to bthe working class here.
ulterno@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
Yeah.
Thanks to the income/expense situation being a little bit less unbalanced over here.
Also thanks to the relative ease there is, to get politicians to implement work reform, as compared to the US (not that any of the work reform laws would apply to me).
T00l_shed@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I think the calls leaving 100 per month are generous
myyass@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I remember in 2007 I would have to work two hours for a pack of smokes or a gallon of gas working in fast food. 0/10 would not recommend.
RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
That’s why they need to work two jobs at closer to 60 or more hours per week, no weekends off, in order to have anything at all.
Tabooki2@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
It’s called minimum wage for a reason. It’s not a career and you aren’t supposed to do it forever.
BigDiction@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I’ve never lived in a $7.25 state. Excluding tipped jobs, have any of y’all worked that rate or know somebody who has in the last 10 years?
It’s unfathomably low.
doingthestuff@lemy.lol 2 weeks ago
I’m in a state where minimum is under $11 and yes lots of people earn minimum. I moved out when minimum was around $4, I made maybe $0.15 over minimum. I had two roommates and we lived in a really terrible neighborhood but we made it work. I walked to work back then. Where I live now, walking or biking are not options. It just keeps getting worse.
sudoer777@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
I still see jobs listing for $9/hr
rbos@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
While that is awful… I’d eliminate the internet line and tether my phone. Data plans are ridiculous these days.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
The most common end-run around no Internet is to use the library. And we’ve been closing libraries faster than we’ve been opening private data centers
Jankatarch@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Isn’t minimum wage also half that?
Doc_Crankenstein@slrpnk.net 2 weeks ago
Yup. This is why we were trying to get it increased to 15 back in fucking 2011.
Today we need it to be nearly double that.