We Spoke To Game Devs And All Of Them Hate DLSS 5: 'What The F***, Nvidia?'
Submitted 2 weeks ago by inclementimmigrant@lemmy.world to games@lemmy.world
https://kotaku.com/we-spoke-to-game-devs-and-all-of-them-hate-dlss-5-what-the-f-nvidia-2000680059
Comments
JeeBaiChow@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
VitoRobles@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
Okay honestly I want that.
unwarlikeExtortion@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
Seems like it could work well for upscaling Oblivion.
schnurrito@discuss.tchncs.de 2 weeks ago
Pikachu is meant to be a mouse though, kinda not very fitting.
jj4211@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Will that reinforces the point of the critique.
It invents an intent that may be inconsistent with the original vision.
E.g. it just assumes girls should all be wearing makeup, which may be very much at odds with the character or the scenario.
Vespair@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
I’m just gonna copy & paste my comment from another thread on the topic:
They don’t care. Nobody thinks this is a meaningful announcement, it’s just another pretense to justify AI as Nvidia and much of the entire US economy are so deeply sunken-cost invested in the “future AI ecosystem” that they just need any headlines to keep the machine churning. That’s what this is. Doesn’t mean it isn’t real and gamers won’t have to suffer with it, but no point of this is actually to make anyone’s gaming experience better in any way.
moody@lemmings.world 2 weeks ago
I don’t think it’s really aimed at gamers though. It’s a tech demo for what their hardware can do. They say that it was run on a dedicated 5090 which means that to get the same result, you have to be running the game on a 5090 and have a second 5089 just for DLSS5.
This isn’t meant for consumers. It’s aimed at sectors of the market that want realtime gen AI processing of realtime footage, whether 3D generated or live action.
I think they’re purposely taking the backlash from the gaming community, which they obviously don’t care about anymore, to showcase the tech to a different market.
echodot@feddit.uk 2 weeks ago
They did announce it at a games event
Vespair@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Astute, I think you’re right.
Rooster326@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
So you think this is “Lost Pets” of the Dystopian Ring/Flock future?
chunes@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
My thoughts on this corpulent technology can be summed up by some brilliant thinkers.
“Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius—and a lot of courage—to move in the opposite direction.” – E.F. Schumacher
“The cheapest, fastest, and most reliable components of a computer system are those that aren’t there.” – Gordon Bell
“Keep it simple. A simple solution has elegance. It is the result of an exacting effort to understand the real problem and is recognized by its compelling sense of rightness. I stress this point because it contradicts the conventional view that power increases with complexity. Simplicity provides confidence, reliability, compactness, and speed.” – Charles Moore
moakley@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Corpulent means fat. Is the technology fat?
neukenindekeuken@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
I think they’re not using it literally. In this context, corpulent just means bloated/gross. That is also its literal definition.
So I think the word works here.
ParlimentOfDoom@piefed.zip 2 weeks ago
Well, according Nvidia, they’re all wrong, so who are you going to believe?
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
I only trust little Asian men in black leather jackets
arcine@jlai.lu 2 weeks ago
I think the NVIDIA people just saw that it’s «more realistic» and that was good enough for them. And, to be fair, it is.
But they are so drunk on AI that they missed the inconsistencies, the fake imaginary lights, the impossibility of controlling the result, the random addition of makeup, the fact it fucks up color balance and contrast…
And the COST !? Two 5090s when most people couldn’t even afford one !? Even if the results were perfect, just forget about it ! No sane developer will spend any money on a feature less than 1% of their players will even experience, let alone enjoy.
VitoRobles@lemmy.today 2 weeks ago
From my experience - people who abuse AI don’t see AI’s cracks any longer. Their writing changes. How they see things.
It’s like the plastic surgery people. They don’t realize how weird and off-putting they look.
arcine@jlai.lu 2 weeks ago
Yes ! They will unironically send you messages full of “it’s not X, it’s Y” and use lists everywhere when it’s not appropriate at all 😅 It’s amazing to me that they think they are still writing in a perfectly normal way
EightBitBlood@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
No sane person is going to spend that massive amount of money just to see what AI thinks their games could look like. The people who buy games want to see what the devs made them look like. Not what an AI thinks the devs made. Absolutley no one wants a middleman between the art and artist. As that’s supposed to be you. We don’t need AI there. That’s dumb as shit, and expensive as shit to boot.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
No sane person is going to spend that massive amount of money
I do remember a friend who dropped $1200 on linked GeForce 1040s(?) to max out the settings in Elder Scrolls: Oblivion.
Was it worth it? Probably not. Will people with more money than sense do it? Absolutely.
Harvey656@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Not to say your wrong, because your right. But developers absolutely waste time on sub 1% player stuff, just look at mmos.
arcine@jlai.lu 2 weeks ago
Yes, but MMOs spend that time on the 1% of players that bring in over 50% of the revenue. Not on a feature everybody hates, and that doesn’t make money, just because NVIDIA says so.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
And, to be fair, it is.
It’s not. The Resident Evil side-by-side is the clearest example.
You took what was supposed to be a grim, shadowy, grungy, dusty set piece and you made it brighter, cleaner, smoother, and happier. Now imagine DLSS 5 doing this same kind of work on a shambling zombie or a Licker or William Birkin from RE2. You really want your super mutants and murder hobos to get this kind of glow-up?
arcine@jlai.lu 2 weeks ago
The result looks more like a photograph than the input, that’s all I’m saying. I absolutely agree that every important aspect of the image is getting destroyed !
nutsack@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
the cost
I have a suspicion that they are ramping up to the acceptance of cost-prohibitive technologies in order to eventually transition people into cloud based gaming rig services. I can envision a AAA title that is sold as a service and cannot be run on a reasonable computer
Katana314@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
If this is the master plan, a lot of these people might be very worried to learn about how expansive the indie sphere of gaming is across the whole world, encompassing what used to be AAA genres like 3D survival horror, platforming action games, etc.
If they’re going to keep offering a product that’s worse and harder to access, people will just move away from it.
CaptPretentious@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Even if I opened the hardware, I wouldn’t use it. I want what the artist intended, not what some AI slops together. That goes for games, movies, books, paintings, etc. I’m not paying for AI, it brings no value to me. I didn’t care if it’s a filter, or something generated from a prompt.
darkmogool@feddit.org 2 weeks ago
What bothers me the most besides the general AI slop thing) is that this shit changes the style of games. And imo better graphics alsmost never make a game better…
BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
It’s astonishing to me that PC gamers are suddenly so focused on the “creative intent” of game visuals.
We’re talking about the crowd who shits on console players because they (usually) cannot install mods for their games. Gamers have been destroying the creative intent of the visuals in games for years with shader mods, changes to models and animations, and adding totally new, completely out of place things.
The DLSS5 examples look like shit, but let’s stop pretending we give a shit about the devs “creative intent” when talking about it.
samc@feddit.uk 2 weeks ago
Maybe gamers aren’t a monolith and the ones adding waifus to Skyrim aren’t the same as the ones criticising DLSS5?
BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Hmm. Nah that couldn’t be it.
Duamerthrax@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Most people will install mods after playing the game as intended to get more life out of it and if a game is modable, it’s often because the devs included support for that.
Many of those devs got their starts in the modding scene and understand remix culture. What Nvidia is doing is not that. What Nvidia is doing is tantamount to including Autotune in every music player.
BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
I don’t think the second part of your first statement is correct. There are plenty of games that have modding support and that’s great, but there’s also plenty of types of mods that exist despite a lack of support.
Reshade works with most games, even some with anticheats, for example. To piggyback off your analogy, that’s like using an equalizer to accentuate the bass because that’s what you like the most in music.
Regardless, throwing an Ai filter on top of your game seems like something a modder would come up with (and has), but not in any serious capacity.
Vespair@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Bro opening up your sandwich to put mayo on is a vastly different experience than you opening up my sandwich to put whatever condiment you choose on my sandwich.
Datz@szmer.info 2 weeks ago
To be fair, if DLSS5 is optional (I hope so), they are asking you if you want the condiment.
The condiment is a shitty mayo, and they did take initative (which an average person will mindlessly accept), but they did ask.
inclementimmigrant@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
So let’s have that philosophical discussion again like when we had with elden ring mods and artistic/designer intent.
So the biggest philosophical difference to me is that mods are done with a human artistic intent behind it and in the end it’s up to the individual gamer to seek out and decide if that’s something they want to include in their game. It’s the fact that some guy, one individual decided that yup, I’m going to add big old tit’s to Grace and throw her into thong and pasties while revisiting her mother’s death. At least that gal understood what the intent of the scene/game was but made that conscious decision of “nah, let me change it to what I personally would like to see because I’m just a thirsty bastard.”. And even with these types of mods, yes there is a level of respect and gratitude of the original developers inherit in modding.
It’s something unique based on this one person’s interpretation of the game that they’re sharing with other gamers. On the other end of the spectrum, we as individual games can play the game and then make the decision of if we want to incorporate that transformative artists decision or not and we can decide to completely respect the designers original intent or reject/alter it.
DLSS 5 there is no artistic intent behind it just corporation’s algorithm that’s not agreeing, understanding the tone behind things, saying and whole sale adjusting everything according to a model that normalizes everything to some average model. Plus while you can say that developers can have a say with tools to maximize or minimize the effects, which another article I posted seems to point out that those tools of control may be over blown, there’s been no inkling that the gamer themselves can decide if they want to use it or not. And let’s not be coy with some bullshit about “Well you can turn DLSS off”, no you really can’t because this shit has been used as a crutch for game development to get to a respectable frame rate for reasons so now both developers and gamers are forced to bring in a corporations non-artistic vision into their games.
To me that human artistic factor is one part of the key and the decision to say fuck it I want the game to look like a bad only fans filter and the ultimate choice of the human gamer themselves to decide to use it or not is the other part of it and why to me DLSS 5 is bullshit slop.
yabbadabaddon@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Replacing every NPC with a big boobies naked women is an artistic intent.
BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
This seems completely irrelevant to my point. The problem isn’t that it’s against the developer’s artistic intentions, it’s that it looks like shit.
Who cares what the artist intended?
merdaverse@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
I was going to argue that’s not the case, but then I looked at the most popular mods for Darkest Dungeon and it’s more than 50% anime girls with big tits. There are definitely some good mods in general that maintain creative intent, both aesthetic and game design wise, but it sometimes feels like searching for a needle in a haystack.
Evotech@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Based take and true. But there’s different «rules» for low stakes modding and an organisation like nvdidia pushing for default slopification of games
HrabiaVulpes@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
This type of tools should be added on a per-game basis.
Imagine AI hallucinating additional enemies on your screen when you are playing something like League of Legends.
As for games like skyrim - they might as well turn into wish-fulfilling AI-powered “go on adventure in fantasy land” machines and nobody would notice the difference.
BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Okay, this is still possible. Just don’t turn it on.
Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
Completely agree, it feels like taking crazy pills seeing the oddly misdirected anger.
Even then, I don’t understand the anger when nvidia isn’t forcing any game devs to use the tech, so isn’t it necessarily part of the creative intent if they decide to implement it as an option? At the very least they’re the ones that provide it or not.
It makes me feel like it’s an intentional campaign to stoke anger at something seriously inconsequential, but that seems crazy too.
Honytawk@feddit.nl 2 weeks ago
Preach.
It is the same argument they used to gatekeep souls games whenever someone suggested to add an easy mode for those who want to play the game but lack the skill to do so.
The intent of the developer is a lot less important than the experience of the player.
Vespair@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
No, it’s like ordering a steak at a restaurant and then somebody from the kitchen supply company coming it once it hits your table and sprinkling a bunch of cinnamon you didn’t ask for all over it.
axum@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
“we interviewed only haters and they all of them complained about the thing they hate”
What a garbage article.
sakuraba@lemmy.ml 2 weeks ago
yeah it’s not like the like/dislike ratio on nvidia’s video is overwhelming negative… it’s the haters that are wrong!
axum@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
This is such a braindead take that completely misses my original point. I know reading levels have dropped globally but come on now, you can do better.
undone6988@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
I thought Lemmy was supposed to be better than Reddit. Why is this on here
Zatore@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
Reddit hive mind is just as much a thing here as it is there
krisevol@lemmus.org 2 weeks ago
A bunch of people got it wrong, and other people ban wagoned. The hate has almost disappeared now that the dust has settled and people actually listened to what it is, but there are so people that change to goal post to general AI is bad after finding out what dlss 5 actually does. Always look into the subject before joining the bandwagon because the first reaction is usually wrong and misinformed.
inclementimmigrant@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
WTF are you even talking about? Sit down Billy, I award you no points.
ChocolateFrostedSugarBombs@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
and may God have mercy on your soul.
warmaster@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Relax, that account must be an AI bot with DLSS ON™.
THE_GR8_MIKE@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
10/10 he’s either some jerkoff CEO, some jerkoff tech bro, or some jerkoff shareholder.
krisevol@lemmus.org 2 weeks ago
Well damn.
TommySoda@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Hmm… New account, defending a company that doesn’t care about your opinion, and saying that everyone but the corporation is the problem.
Bro… Are you aware that you are a bot?
krisevol@lemmus.org 2 weeks ago
No, usually the first reaction is the wrong one. This is the case here. So many people got what dlss5.0 does wrong. It’s just AI fear and assumptions, and not understanding what the tech is doing and what is for.
MichaelScotch@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Shut the fuck up. You are wrong and misinformed. Also, artificial general intelligence doesn’t exist yet, but when it does, you’ll feel the pain regardless of your naïveté
taiyang@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I’ve seen it in reverse; people who saw the initial yassification of characters they admittedly didn’t really know we’re impressed by the “rendering” but after a few days, have realized that perhaps it isn’t the creative intent to make everyone look like AI slop.
Plus even if the tech ends up being good, the demonstration (and subsequent response) is very much not. Shadows getting washed out, people’s arms disappearing, and other things, people looking it over realize it’s not even doing what it wants to do.
Maybe it’ll work out when the creators have control over it and can prevent it from undoing important stuff, like a character’s plot related scars or lighting effects used to show players where to go, but that’s all suspect until proven otherwise.
krisevol@lemmus.org 2 weeks ago
Dlss 1.0 sucked.
Dlss 4.5 is amazing.
Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
There’s too many AI bot posters these days.
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 weeks ago
Well, think of it this way:
China now knows how to shoot down F35s, if you’ve been following other news.
Yeah, sorry Taiwan, between that and the US wasting all of its missiles and interceptors on Iran… and dismantling the SK THAAD system for parts, after two of them got destroyed in the GCC…
Huang is gonna be taking orders, moreso than giving them, in the near future.
kerrigan778@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 weeks ago
Sir this is a Wendy’s
deltapi@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Sorry, what?!
samus12345@sh.itjust.works 2 weeks ago
c/lostlemmings
Snowman_sir@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
I just want my games to be fun. Without 2x 5090’s.
yabbadabaddon@lemmy.zip 2 weeks ago
I’m playing the devil’s advocate here because modders have been using other people’s assets with or without consents for almost as long as video gsme existed. Sometimes they make things of beauty like skyblivion and sometimes they turn the ugly snake lady of the last resident evil into shrek and sometimes they add big tiddies to every single NPC.
I agree with the previous comment: the modding community never gave a flying fuck about the creative design of games. Hell, often even devs of the game themselves don’t give a flying fuck when you see the “outfits” of some Korean MMORPG.
Do I think what Nvidia does is smart? Absolutely not. I think it’s hot garbage and I think Nvidia CEO will end up in prison when the bubble pops. But I think it makes little sense to jump on moral high horse to argue against what they are doing.
To me, the decision on how you want to play a game and how you want it to look is for the player to make and nobody else. You offer me a game, I buy it. It’s mine. If I want to play vanilla, I’ll do it. If I want naked big tiddies shrek instead of Mario, it’s my right. I bought this right.
k0e3@lemmy.ca 2 weeks ago
We should make a DLSS5: on meme community.
BurnedDonutHole@ani.social 2 weeks ago
Please don’t lynch me. I’m asking because I don’t know. Could this be used to change the old games’ graphics? It could be a nice addition to modding communities. I would like to play Old Republic games with these graphics again.
ChristerMLB@piefed.social 2 weeks ago
I guess the big question is how customizable this will end up being - all the arguments against it seem to assume there’s just an on-off switch, and that seems pretty stupid as anything but a tech demo.
Fmstrat@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
This is a really good video about how good DLSS5 works… on backgrounds, without altering artistic intent. If nvidia allows devs to tailor “no go zones” for DLSS, this would be a great thing.
NostraDavid@programming.dev 2 weeks ago
Yeah, but the girl from Resident Evil is actually hot with the DLSS5 filter though.
But that’s just one character in a bunch, and Realism isn’t a good fit for every game.
NONE_dc@lemmy.world 2 weeks ago
Jesus…