wow what an excellent day in the neighbourhood i sure hope I won’t be faced with an ethical dilemma in the very near future oh rats it’s the trolley problem
The Prisoner's Trolley Problemma
Submitted 5 months ago by m_f@midwest.social to [deleted]
https://midwest.social/pictrs/image/0e5a4d4a-c509-483e-931e-a27797ebca03.jpeg
Comments
chtk@feddit.nl 5 months ago
UmeU@lemmy.world 5 months ago
This was super funny, this person has a great career ahead of her. Very Tim and Eric style obscure indie comedy, I loved it.
smiletolerantly@awful.systems 5 months ago
This isn’t philosophy anymore, it’s just game theory
problematicPanther@lemmy.world 5 months ago
it’s interdisciplinary.
Gonzako@lemmy.world 5 months ago
por qué no los dos
elidoz@lemmy.ml 5 months ago
holy prisoner dilemma
Maggoty@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Not even. Game Theory is supposed to take a lot of stuff into account. Boiling it down to this is insulting and a way to paint situations like proxy wars as immoral.
Ashen@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
I was thinking the same!
postmateDumbass@lemmy.world 5 months ago
But what is philosophy really?
a_wild_mimic_appears@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 months ago
for the longest time, i did know that game theory did not have anything to do with “games” and that it is somehow connected to the prisoners dilemma, but the concept as such wasn’t very clear to me. If you are like my former me, take 30 minutes out of your day and visit ncase.me/trust/ to learn and play around with game theory; it’s a great webpage and it’s pretty good fun all around.
solstice@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I did a few game theory simulations in college and they were always real interesting. In one of them for example, it was a multiplayer game, with multiple interactions. I think it was to simulate global trade basically: you could cooperate with as many players as you want and each time you cooperate you both get a point. If you defect then you get two and they get none. However, all the players could see what the other players are doing, so if you defected they would know and probably would play (trade) with you. The best way to win was to form as many connections as possible and fully cooperate the whole time.
I formed maybe like 20-30 connections with other players and didn’t defect. Each point was worth a few cents or something. So I walked out with a check for like $20-$50 or something. Many players walked out with nothing because they cheated too many people too many times and nobody wanted to trade with them.
Therefore, clearly, the best economic policy is protectionism, tariffs, trade wars, and fucking over both allies and enemies, right? Right?!?
Lemming6969@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Your simulation seems to only punish selfish actors when that’s not always the case. Doesn’t include natural monopolies, lacks clandestine exploitation, and there’s likely no market capture or saturation. In such a case the only play is to cooperate.
NevermindNoMind@lemmy.world 5 months ago
That page is very well done and interesting, thanks for sharing!
batshit@lemmings.world 5 months ago
zergtoshi@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Thank you for sharing the link. That webpage is amazing!
holycrap@lemm.ee 5 months ago
Which relative is on the track and which in the trolley?
TheBat@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Your hot cousin is on the track. What would you do.
voracitude@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Don’t pull the lever, then there’s three thirds of hot cousin to go around regardless of the other person’s decision. Philosophy is easy.
ericbomb@lemmy.world 5 months ago
It says loved ones I’m afraid, can’t sacrifice one in prison I’m afraid.
Saledovil@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
Unlike the classic prisoners dilemma, this isn’t a nash equilibrium. When I know that the other person pulls their switch, I’d improve my outcome by not pulling mine. Compare to the prisoners dilemma, where not snitching when the other side snitches earns you five years in prison.
Wade@lemmy.world 5 months ago
And unlike the original trolley problem, pulling the lever will always kill more people. I’d wager most people wouldn’t pull this lever because of this, but I agree there’s no Nash equilibrium.
wabafee@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Do nothing that way you don’t get to jail for murder. All the pressure goes to the other guy.
grrgyle@slrpnk.net 5 months ago
I feel like you’re not internalizing that this is a thought experiment.
Maggoty@lemmy.world 5 months ago
This is the dumbest thought experiment I’ve ever seen.
fl42v@lemmy.ml 5 months ago
Also, it’s too late to pull the lever, you’ll just provoke a crush.
samus12345@lemmy.world 5 months ago
They’ve already both chosen not to pull the lever at this point. Guess they didn’t want to make a wider picture.
Tudsamfa@lemmy.world 5 months ago
This is only superficially a prisoner’s dilemma. In a true one, you cannot get a better result for yourself no matter what the other person does, but here if you assume the other person pulled the lever, there is no reason to pull the lever yourself.
To fix this, you can have 4 relatives on the trolley, and 5 of the opposite faction way back on the middle track. Both do nothing, 1 relative of each is killed. One guy switches the lever, their relatives are all fine, other guy loses 5. Both switch, crash with all 8 relatives on the trolley dead.
TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I see what you’re trying to do and you’re not necessarily wrong, but you’re kinda perpetuating the attitude that inspired someone to make this meme in the first place
Tudsamfa@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I’m not sure I follow. Should this meme’s creator not have been inspired?
IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 months ago
You pull the lever, then pew pew pew the other person near the lever.
Boom.
Did I solve it?
Where’s my prize?
Wait a minute, gotta shoot everyone else related too. Don’t want to face any revenge.
Automatic Weaponry goes brrrr
No witnesses
Okay I saved 1 of my loved ones.
Bingo?
Now theres only one color of people.
Wait am I a racist?
AnAustralianPhotographer@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Theoretically, will a collision cause a breach of the radioactive material that’s in the box with my cat? Asking for a friend.
bitwaba@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Yes and no.
tetris11@lemmy.world 5 months ago
If cat can witness the event, then Yes or No but not both.
rational_lib@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Yell to the guy on the other side that I’m going to pull the lever, so he’d better not.
Then let it go because that both maximizes global utility and poses the lowest risk of the worst case scenario.
IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 months ago
“WHAT? I CANT HEAR YOU THE TRAIN IS TOO LOUD!” pulls lever
tetris11@lemmy.world 5 months ago
OOOHHHHH
WHO LIVES IN A PINEAPPLE UNDER THE SEA
somewhathinged@lemm.ee 5 months ago
If you think about this for any length of time and actually imagine this scenario, you realise you don’t pull the lever and it’s not even close.
socsa@piefed.social 5 months ago
Wrong. You pick the obviously wrong moral stance and then aggressively yell about it on the internet. The more obvious it becomes that you are wrong, the louder you yell. This protects your ego from introspection.
mynameisigglepiggle@lemmy.world 5 months ago
SHUT UP. THE RIGHT CHOICE IS TO DROP A NUKE ON EVERYONE.
Ilovethebomb@lemm.ee 5 months ago
That’s something a lot of people will do for fun.
kreskin@lemmy.world 5 months ago
that right, I’d masturbate on the tracks and on the people tied to the tracks so they are slipery and can slide or bounce to safety. And before you judge me, its the only thing I’m really good at and we should make the most of what we have in life.
onionsinmypores@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
wildest trolley solution I’ve seen so far lmao (the slippery jon trons)
Bob_Robertson_IX@discuss.tchncs.de 5 months ago
But then your loved one (mom, dad, sister,child) dies.
Fedizen@lemmy.world 5 months ago
You realize this is your family watching you make the decision to have their vehicle run over a loved one? There’s a possibility they all live if you pull it.
Famko@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Or if you pull it, then they see you make the decision to risk their lives to kill three other people.
What is better, three lives lost or one life lost?
_bcron@midwest.social 5 months ago
The outcome from both levers pulled is so steep that it really makes no sense to pull the lever
owsei@programming.dev 5 months ago
That’s why they won’t pull the lever, and that’s why you should.
_bcron@midwest.social 5 months ago
They’ll be thinking the same thing tho and if there is a greater than 20% chance of them pulling the lever it’d be worse in terms of losing family members than not pulling at all.
But in terms of overall death, not pulling the lever is 1 or 4, and pulling the lever is 4 or 13
Emerald@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Not really, this would all happen so fast and be emotionally, not logically driven.
BluesF@lemmy.world 5 months ago
But equally that might be what they’re thinking. There’s no simple equilibrium in this game… If your opponent pulls, your best move is not to pull. If they do not, your best move is to do so.
Well, from a pure game theory standpoint, assuming you only value your relatives. This is all somewhat disregarding the three innocents in the middle.
RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Have these folks seen The Good Place? Or are they just approaching the same conclusion by accident?
solstice@lemmy.world 5 months ago
By far the smartest show ever written and it’s not even close!
bananabenana@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Lmao what. Sure it covers philosophy 101, but not as smart as say, Dark, Mr Robot, Better Call Saul, Watchmen etc.
TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 5 months ago
You need to watch more shows. Don’t get me wrong, I like The Good Place and what they were trying to do with it, but yeah no there’s a lot of other shows that are just as educational and well written that don’t have to do a show-wide reset every season
Crankenstein@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Idk … Andor has a really good message.
tetris11@lemmy.world 5 months ago
aviationeast@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Questions: why doesn’t the person at the switch run and get the person off the tracks? And the people on the trolley hop off or try to the sslow the trolley?
VivianTg@lemmynsfw.com 5 months ago
They are tied to their chair with the only thing they can do being flipping the lever. It is the prisoner’s trolley problem
actually@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I think this exposes the sadism of philosophy the past few hundred years.
Often, it’s been some rich idle folks making up murderous fantasies in their heads while looking down at my ancestors . “Oh, you don’t know page 273 of Aristotle’s rejoinder? Haha, you must be too poor”.
sergih@feddit.cl 5 months ago
This guy is already implying that youll like it better if 3 randoms die as 1 loved one, he’s choosing for you already in the explanation 😭😭😭
UndercoverUlrikHD@programming.dev 5 months ago
Sounds like your typical game theory problem.
Not pulling the lever: Worst case: Your loved ones dies Best case: None
Pulling the lever: Worst case: Your loved ones dies Best case: Your loved ones survives
Wirlocke@lemmy.blahaj.zone 5 months ago
How much did I like that one guy really.
MystikIncarnate@lemmy.ca 5 months ago
The meaning behind the trolly problem has been entirely eroded at this point.
Fedizen@lemmy.world 5 months ago
mercifully pulling both levers.
m0darn@lemmy.ca 5 months ago
I think these scenarios might be easier to analyze if we made them a bit more realistic.
Like isn’t this an analogy for military intervention? If we empower our military to be proactive, we can save one “good guy” ^^Tm by killing 3 “worthless foreigners”. But if NATO’s adversaries are participating too we lose 3 of our “good guy” ^^Tm.
UmeU@lemmy.world 5 months ago
To quote something I made up and say all the time, “It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose.”
Peck@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Well obviously you should pull the lever once the front wheels past the split but before the rear wheels cross it, so that trolley gets off the rails. This way everybody has the chance to survive and you have defensible position during inevitable court hearing.
postmateDumbass@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I ban trolleys. Everyone walks.
db2@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Nuke it from orbit.
finitebanjo@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I think the premise falls apart on the assumption that I consider pulling the lever as best case.
anonymouse2@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
Throw the trolley off the side of the ferry.
workerONE@lemmy.world 5 months ago
I would tie a really really long string to the lever and attach the string to a large bird and then scare it into flying away. Then I would go to Albertsons and buy some delicious Heinz Baked Beans
SapphironZA@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
For some people, this is a problem. For others, this is a solution.
Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works 5 months ago
This feels too high quality for a shit post.
SmackemWittadic@lemmy.world 5 months ago
Gotta make sure your fiber intake is decent so you get good quality shit like this