I’m not sure if this is the right community for this question, but it says “no stupid question” so here goes. I’m an Israeli who now lives in the US, but I am considering permanently residing in the US or elsewhere (perhaps somewhere in Europe or Canada) because I’ve become kinda disillusioned with Israel for a variety of reasons (the war in Gaza being one of them, the erosion of democracy by Likud being another, and etc) but is that cowardly to leave? Should I go back and try to change society or should I just leave for good? Thanks for your time.
As a Russian Jew who fled the Russia in the 1980s, my family moved for our safety and opportunity. Countries don’t deserve reverence just for being countries. We can be proud of our heritage without having to show allegiance to a nation state. Especially, when it is using our ethnicity/religion to brutally wipe out and massacre a civilian population.
Just do what is best for you and your family.
tigerjerusalem@lemmy.world 6 months ago
I’ll go against the grain and give you a straight answer.
No. You should not go back to Israel.
You owe nothing to your country. If you have the possibility to live in a good European country, do it. You’re no martyr. You’re not billionaire rich. And unless you’re a really high rank offcial, an important politician, or want to sacrifice your entire life to a cause, you have no reason to waste your short life in pain.
We’re in a silly blue rock between a billion trillion systems, none of which care about you. Your existence is not even a blimp in the context of the universe. You’re not important at all. So why waste and suffer on behalf of a thing you have absolutely no control? Be happy, be comfortable, and make those around you happy and comfortable.
Life is pretty hard already, there’s no need to make it harder. Go and be happy.
ashkenaziisraeli@lemmy.world 6 months ago
You make some very good points, giving me something to think about. Thanks
Orbituary@lemmy.world 6 months ago
To add to their point, I live in the USA. I speak 4 languages. My girlfriend is Mexican and has dual citizen status in Mexico and Chile. The US is fucked, but not in the same ways exactly. That being said, I’m ashamed of our behavior every day.
The USA is not a moral northstar nor is it a place to aspire to live unless you’re in dire straights.
We plan to move to Chile at some point. I can maintain my US job.
Fuck false loyaltyto nationality. Live for yourself and your loved ones. Everything else is farse. Life has no borders.
Sensitivezombie@lemmy.zip 6 months ago
This, unfortunately, is a very individualistic view. We as a society must strive to be a collective and bring prosperity and success to the mass and not the few at the cost of the masses.
This can only happen if we all work together to change the governance and economic systems in oir individual countries. It has nothing to do with being a martyr for you country or national pride. It has everything to do with working to bring a better world for us and the future generation.
We can do this, by organizing, educating, and agitating. Joining local organization around this cause is a great start.
Israel means nothing, nor does the US, UK, Russia, etc. These are simply labels created through territorial disputes, nationalism, imperial and colonialism. No one owes anything to these silly labels and their entitlements and propaganda. But, it is only rational that we work to make our own communities a better place by ensuring everyone has an equal opportunity and the wealth generated belongs to us not the few who wanted nothing more than to keep the status quo. Leaving the community behind for your own better future is self-serving and individualistic view. The notion of only look out for yourself, individualism, is a recent phenomenon in human history, a symptom of the first industrial revolution and capitalism.
Yes, do what makes you happy and live your life the way you want, but not at the cost of the struggle of your community and society at large.
skye@lemmy.world 6 months ago
I don’t think OOP wanting to leave Israel will harm the struggle of the community. Plus, who is saying they can’t help the cause by being alive and doing things in Europe/Canada/US?
Another thing to consider is that someone fighting for a cause they don’t believe in might do more harm to the cause than good.
secretlyaddictedtolinux@lemmy.world 6 months ago
I don’t know if this is right.
Let’s look at global warming and environmental pollution.
I am of the belief that based on the mathematical trends, the bulk of us are all going to die through total environmental collapse within 200 years. If you have a petri dish and there’s bacteria in it, and you give it unlimited nutrients (similar how today’s society uses oil to produce things far beyond what the environment would normally allow), eventually there is bacterial colony collapse due to pollution. If you look at the trends, they are very bad, and because most people don’t understand how math works and don’t really believe in science, or are struggling too much to care, and because many people believe in religions that promise an afterlife and suggest a deity or deities would not allow destruction of the earth due to poor resource management, there’s not really a way to stop this trend. One climate scientist set himself on fire to try to warn people about what is happening. It made the papers, for 1 day, and then people went back to not caring.
I like the idea of what you are saying, but everything is going to end someday, right? Why should this person throw their life away on some cause when they don’t believe in it, to spend their life changing something that may not be changeable?
People believe in religion. And people are stupid. You can’t deprogram everyone, there’s too many religious idiots. And therefore we’re all going to die because people believe in fairy tales and not environmental science.
So that being said, does political activism even make sense? If the lemmings are all about to fall off the cliff, do you try to stop them? Do you try to convince them as they are falling off the cliff? What if you are tied up and they are carrying you off the cliff with them? Do you keep trying to reason with them? At what point do you just take a deep breath and enjoy the view? (I know lemmings don’t really do this.)
Even if you think the highly intelligent people of the world should band together to try to stop the madness of the others who can’t understand science and logic, how would it be possible? Reasoning with them doesn’t work, trying to impact politics doesn’t work because either capitalists are greedily exploiting people and therefore want to hold political power or communists are too obsessed with controlling people and let the environment become destroyed as a result, or the government is controlled by religious zealots in which the goal is relieving the existential anxiety of many people through made up fairy tales. There’s not really a way to stop this train, of environmental catastrophe. Look at the graphs, study how the oceans work, look at how pollution is exponentially increasing. Small changes will not improve things. You also have seemingly “smart” people who are often either psychopathic or autistic advocating for a greater population and saying global warming is a scam and some of them are high profile people and often their beliefs are either rooted in nihilism, selfishness, or the belief that technological progress will somehow be some sort of deus ex machina savior that will swoop down and change exponential trends and this confuses the stupid religious people that make up the bulk of society who think that if high profile smart people don’t believe in global warming, then everything is fine. It’s not actually just global warming, it’s massive amounts of pollution, all sorts of different kinds, massive amounts of environmental destruction, all sorts of kinds. And so while we’re debating abortion rights and pronouns and the minutia of LGBT and religious intersectionality, the exponential trends do not care and keep on exponenting.
So yeah, I think what you’re posting is a noble idea. But… it may not matter. Unless a large part of the population dies, without destroying the environment in the process, this planet ain’t going to be that habitable for that much longer, and even with a huge reduction in population it’s probably too late. When bacterial colonies collapse, it isn’t slow and gradual… everything is fine… everything is fine… then WHAM!!! a huge sudden decline and barely any bacteria are able to survive. It’s possible I’m reading all the data wrong, and everything will be fine. I don’t know though, it doesn’t look good to me. The biggest wild card seems like it’s the oceans and what happens to the planet when the oceans fundamentally change due to chemical properties being changes in aggregate and whether tipping points will suddenly result in changes wildly increasing even faster. People don’t really listen to good smart scientist that much when there’s no profit motive to listen. That guy who set himself on fire to try to warn people really tried, he was really trying to warn people. And it did nothing. I think the only way this planet ends up surviving without becoming nearly uninhabitable is if a worse pandemic shows up and eliminates over 2/3rd of people. That will probably end up happening, either accidentally or intentionally by someone or a government that can see the data and ends up making the hard ugly decision.
I like your post, but I like the post too about just enjoying life as much as you can. This conflict isn’t minutia of course and perhaps it’s worth fighting for, but against the backdrop of looming environmental catastrophe and scientific illiteracy, combined with a planet literally primarily controlled by people who believe in religion, which is all balderdash, is there really a reason to keep trying to change society? You can’t reason with math, or have optimism and a dialogue with math. It’s just math.
It’s a lot like how Ozempic has changed people’s perception of obesity. It used to all be about will power and diets and exercise. Even Oprah was saying you could change things. And then Ozempic came along, and we all realized will power only did so much, and a lot of it was just math and brain chemistry and free will was perhaps an illusion when it came to obesity. It’s the same with religion and irrationality and autistic CEO millionaires who say everything is fine, as long as we leave the planet before it collapses, and it’s the same with politicians and corporate industry groups that try to make policy favorable to their bottom line: the disgusting aspects of humanity that are dooming us are a part of nature too. Religion is nature, ozempic is nature, war is nature. We have no control and never did. It doesn’t mean that “giving up” is always rational.
However, look at the data. It’s too late. We’re too late. The change already had to happen. And it didn’t. Now we wait to all die. Perhaps a worse pandemic will save what’s left of the planet. I don’t claim to be right about any of this. Listen to the guy who set himself on fire, not me. He was pretty sure.