[deleted]
Misuse, or misjudging when to use it.
[deleted]
Submitted 3 weeks ago by TokenEffort@sh.itjust.works to [deleted]
Comments
sunbrrnslapper@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
SomeAmateur@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Exactly, if it’s going to be a policy it needs to have extensive safeguards. Who can make the call? Under what circumstances?
Imagine a shitty person, insurance company or hospital preferring to prematurely kill you or someone you love because it’s less effort and cheaper than trying to keep a person alive and help them recover.
spankmonkey@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
That’s a good reason to have a process for euthanization that is as thorough as the one for letting people die slowly by cutting off feeding tubes or machines that assist with bodily functions. Or even like the Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) choice that people can make when they are of sound mind.
It is not a good reason to ban it and make everyone else suffer by dragging out death when it is an inevitability and the person is ready to go.
einkorn@feddit.org 3 weeks ago
The sick and elderly may feel pressure to not be a burden to others.
TokenEffort@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Do they not already? I work out a lot to prevent myself from being a burden if I’m older
einkorn@feddit.org 3 weeks ago
Overall yes, but that pressure might be magnitudes greater when there is “an easy way out”.
FundMECFSResearch@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
“Oh you’re disabled and can’t work”
Let’s make disability benefits super low, so you are unable to survive, thereby you have to “choose” euthanasia.
RobotToaster@mander.xyz 3 weeks ago
People with depression and other mental illnesses who aren’t capable of making that decision will use it. It also makes it a lot easier to argue for cutting mental healthcare and other suicide prevention measures.
Honestly as someone who’s struggled with depression for 20 years, and had a couple of attempts, the idea that the government may just decide there’s no problem with me yeeting myself is terrifying.
insomniac_lemon@lemmy.cafe 3 weeks ago
The problem I have is that preventing euthanasia does not mean there will be a significant effort to reduce the desire for it in the first place. If anything, I would say there are also perverse incentives (particularly in the US) for not allowing people to have that choice (also leaving isn’t really viable for many suffering either). Ideally using those choices would push a government for some changes… although I know it probably would not fix malice, greed, or incompetence etc.
Personally I would take a chance to test (physical, cheap) brain preservation if it were an option (esp. if I could set some revival conditions/scenarios). I know there would be no guarantee, though it is the tiniest step up from non-existence and I do think it should make some difference in the tone.
someguy3@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Choosing for yourself, I have no problem with.
Others choosing for you is riff with problems. Taking out family because they don’t like you, you’re too needy for them, to get at your will, etc etc.
pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
From the perspective of someone who generally would prefer not to exist, because I don’t trust my brain to make that decision. How we perceive reality can vary incredibly from it, suicide can seem not only an appropriate response to your situation but the only way to escape it one day, only to have the next day feel nowhere near as bad. I’m short, requiring other people’s input and approval on your decision to die is a good thing. Medical assistance in dying SHOULD be legal and available everywhere, but it’s important to make sure it’s actually appropriate.
r0ertel@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Good point about our perception of reality. If we have drugs available to us that can make us perceive reality as not that bad (or even good), then what if it’s just a defect in our bodies that makes us feel like life isn’t worth living? If our bodies are simply defective in producing the mood balancing hormones, then depression or other mood disorders can be treated with medicines, no different than taking a Tums when we overindulge on Thanksgiving.
pearsaltchocolatebar@discuss.online 3 weeks ago
The hospital industrial complex doesn’t get to make ass loads of money from keeping people alive just to suffer.
schwim@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
Anyone can already euthanize themselves. We’re all just a helium or nitrogen tank and trash bags away from our exit stage right.
TokenEffort@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
Some asshole christian would end up saving me and then I’ll be permanently brain damaged.
schwim@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
I’d say that’s on you, there’s more places to not be found than there are discoverable locations on the earth. Proper planning prevents poor performance and all that.
BestBouclettes@jlai.lu 3 weeks ago
For assisted suicide, I think you just need to make sure it’s the only option left to stop or prevent the suffering of a person (like an incurable disease, or debilitating conditions with no cure, etc.). You also need to make sure the choice is made with enlightened consent.
To allow someone to kill someone else is another level of complexity. The processes of gathering consent, and the reasons to proceed are extremely complex to make sure the decision is taken within the bounds of actual consent, especially if the person to be killed is not conscious or in a capacity to understand.
cogman@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Time, multiple checks/options to back out, and independent evaluation is the way you handle this.
BlitzoTheOisSilent@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I personally believe we should have the right to die, moreso as an individual choice than one a relative should make. We as individuals, who did not consent to living in this absolutely broken society, should have every right to just say one day, “Y’know what, I’ve had enough, I’m done.” This comment will likely be controversial, and I am not encouraging anyone to commit suicide, seek help where and how you can, suicide can be a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
A friend of mine told me once she considered those who commit suicide (outside of terminal illness) to be cowards, taking the “easy” way out and leaving their loved ones to suffer. I argued back that how is it unacceptable for loved ones to suffer, but it’s perfectly acceptable for the individual to suffer to keep the loved ones comfortable? And that’s what mental health (tin foil hat time) is entirely about: not comfort for the individual, but comfort for the society.
It doesn’t matter if you are completely disenfranchised with society, struggling to make ends meet, working multiple jobs with no benefits, eating the same meal 2-3 times a day every day to save money, none of that matters because you’re not contributing to society/capitalism they way you’re supposed to. When the VA was trying to force me onto SSRIs despite my objections due to the side effects they can have, I told them flat out I wasn’t taking a pill just so I could be “productive” for a society that will let me die in the streets at the earliest and cheapest convenience. And no “pill” is going to fix how sick and broken we are as a society.
We as a species weren’t designed for this kind of society, we’re an analog species trying to adapt to a digital world we haven’t had time to properly adjust to. We aren’t designed to work 40 hours/week, 8 hours/day, 50+ weeks per year. We aren’t designed to work ourselves to exhaustion and forego social interactions in the pursuit of more money to try and keep the lights on. And we are watching the largest transfer of wealth to the ultra-wealthy, making the Gilded Age look like child’s play.
So I guess, to sum it up: I think everyone should have the right to end their own life, regardless of the reason, but I don’t believe anyone should have the right to end someone else’s life outside of already-established practices (DNR orders, “pulling the plug” as PoA, etc). We are too broken as a society to trust ourselves to choose when others should die, but we should absolutely be allowing individual’s to end their own lives.
Ferrous@lemmy.ml 3 weeks ago
WoodScientist@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
In terms of yourself, it already effectively is legal. When was the last time someone was prosecuted for attempting suicide?
cheers_queers@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
that’s the problem though. people try to do it themselves and often die painfully or survive with sometimes debilitating lifelong injuries. this way, it’s on their terms but supervised by a doctor, and it’s not a violent way to go.
spankmonkey@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
The decision making process could be abused for some cases, such as those that are comatose or elderly and confused. In the case of comatose or unresponsive cases we already had a process of letting them die by cutting off food or assistance with basic functions and then they have to suffer instead of being allowed to die peacefully like we have for pets.
Also there is some concern that normalizing it would increase the frequency with the assumption that doing so would be wrong. These are valid concerns and should be taken into account, but are massively outweighed by the benefits of less suffering.
I actually disagree with the idea that someone has to be massively suffering or in the process of dying to be able to end their life in a painless way. Having an incurable disease shouldn’t mean they must live long enough to suffer before being able to make a decision. I mean we can make decisions like Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) where medical staff can let someone die, but they can’t make that process quicker when it comes up because of the fear that someone might assist when they should have let the person painfully die slowly in agony instead.
There are valid concerns, but they are massively overblown compared to the amount of suffering that could be avoided if people were able to make decisions about their end of life while they were still of sound mind, like DNR but more like ‘help me die painlessly if I’m going to die anyway’. Just make the decisions where the person’s preference isn’t known a complicated process to avoid those abuses.
setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
As a concept the idea of allowing total autonomy seems sound.
Implementing it as a practice could see some perverse incentives to get people to kill themselves. [Here’s a real example.(cbc.ca/…/christine-gauthier-assisted-death-macaul…)
If the system can safeguard against these, perhaps, but it isn’t a one and done safeguard but constant vigilance. Allowing others to put down people raises even more need for scrutiny.
spankmonkey@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
We already have processes in place to make decisions for those that are unresponsive and on life support/feeding tubes that could be used with a few changes for similar situations involving euthanasia.
Ziggurat@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
It’s legal in some countries, so I don’t see much risks. They rotty sure you can look up for data from Switzerland, Belgium and Netherlands
thonofpy@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Legal does not imply moral.
spankmonkey@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Illegal does not imply immoral.
richieadler@lemmy.myserv.one 3 weeks ago
To be fair, the ethos of those countries as a whole is different from other places like the US. Some places, I think, are inherently unsafe for euthanasia.
PriorityMotif@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
If you didn’t kill yourself I’ll kill your whole family.
leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
I fully support the autonomous right of all people to make informed decisions about their own lives and on paper the idea is a no-brainer.
But unless the legislation surrounding it is very, very tight it could easily be misused or abused. We already live in societies where people with disabilities - particularly learning based disabilities - are seen as having less value. I have overheard conversations where people pass comment on people with disabilities such as “Can’t be much of a life”, “would’ve been better for them if they’d died at birth” etc etc.
Amongst the first group of people the Nazi’s targeted were people with disabilities that they referred to as ‘useless eaters’ and subhuman.
I’m not suggesting that laws allowing self-euthanasia are akin to fascism so don’t Godwin me. All I’m saying is that without very strong legislation and a lot of checks, laws like this can be used to justify a lot of things.
trxxruraxvr@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Murder becomes too easy
captainlezbian@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
So I want to start with the pretext that I’m a lifelong defender of euthanasia. I’ve watched my mom slowly die of brain cancer as she lost function.
That said, euthanasia is easy to combine with removal of the autonomy of the disabled and can lead to very bad places. Especially since less severely disabled people is a positive incentive for governments.
wabafee@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
We would see a trend of old rich people euthanize.
IzzyScissor@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
There’s a fact-checked debate from Vox where both parties set 3 facts that they both agree to. Then they provide footnotes and more information that’s not covered by just the facts. I found this format very enlightening while also explaining both points of view without getting heated.
I only found it on YouTube, but it might be available elsewhere.
Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
Finally! A job for our psychopaths!
Death_Equity@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Who is the arbiter of death that decides when it is right on behalf of another?
spankmonkey@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
We already make similar decisions for end of life, but without the option for a peaceful and painless end.
In the US at least someone can choose Do Not Resuscitate (DNR), which means medical services will not keep them alive when they are in a critical condition, but it also means they can’t make the process easier or faster. People who are brain dead or unresponsive have whole legal processes around letting the person die or be kept on life support.
So we already have those concrrns addressed, but without the option of a swift and painless death.
leftytighty@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
A person’s relationship with their life is an interesting thing philosophically. You can’t consent to it, and most of us feel you can’t easily give it up either.
I don’t believe this myself but you could rationally argue that having life and being required to keep living is a violation of your agency as a human being.
Fermion@feddit.nl 3 weeks ago
[deleted]Tedesche@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
You can’t rely on someone who is suffering to make a rational decision about weighing a very permanent choice with the chances of maybe someday getting better.
That’s just not true. People dealing with chronic pain can absolutely make informed decisions about their own healthcare, including voluntary euthanasia. Psychiatric and neurological illnesses could potentially impair a person’s judgment enough to bar them from making the choice themselves, but this notion that anyone who is “suffering” can’t be relied upon to make a rational decision because they’re somehow too biased by their own pain is pure idiocy.
muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
If u dont have the balls to put a shotgun in ur mouth u dont deserve to kill urself.
andrewta@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
That takes some long ass arms. Although you could use your toes, but the down side is you might break your toe when then gun goes off.
muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee 3 weeks ago
Yeah id be worried about that as well lol
Diabolo96@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 weeks ago
I had some ideas about being given a worth vs cost ratio and being pushed to suicide if it’s low enough, but I am kinda lazy, so here’s an expended versions by AI:
Title: “The Ratio”
Premise: In a dystopian capitalist society where every human life is a calculated asset, an AI-driven system governs the population’s worth. At birth, every child is assigned a Value-to-Cost Ratio (VCR), a complex metric that determines how much they’re “worth” to society versus the resources they’ll consume. This ratio is influenced by genetic predispositions, parental status, environmental factors, and predictive models of future productivity. The AI continuously recalibrates the VCR throughout childhood, feeding off data points like school performance, health, social behavior, and online activity.
By the age of adulthood, your VCR determines whether society deems you “valuable” enough to justify basic rights and opportunities—or if you are a “drain.” The catch? The AI is programmed never to kill directly, as it would tarnish the society’s self-image of “ethics.” Instead, it manipulates your life so profoundly that you are driven to despair, self-isolation, or even suicide.
Mechanisms of Control:
- Invisible Sabotage:
The AI manipulates the job market, ensuring low-ratio individuals never land stable employment. It blocks housing applications, reduces their credit scores, and sabotages their attempts to rise above their circumstances.
- Social Media Weaponization:
Algorithms tailor a specific feed to low-ratio individuals, amplifying isolation, hopelessness, and envy. Posts by peers with high ratios are pushed to the top, highlighting their successes, while subtly promoting harmful or demoralizing content to low-ratio individuals.
- Social Stigma:
People wear devices that display their ratios publicly, fostering discrimination. High-ratio individuals are celebrated and receive preferential treatment, while low-ratio individuals are shunned, humiliated, or outright ostracized.
- “Grace Periods”:
Adolescents with low ratios are given the illusion of a chance to prove their worth in competitive programs or desperate last-chance “reality show” style trials, where failure is engineered to be inevitable.
- “Voluntary Termination”:
The government offers incentives for those with the lowest ratios to “opt out” of society. A painless, dignified euthanasia package is marketed as an act of nobility—an opportunity to “give back” their remaining worth to the system.
surph_ninja@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I fully support being able to choose to end your own life with dignity. But in Canada there were reports of people encouraging the homeless and severely ill to do it, simply because it was cheaper and easier for the institutions of these people killed themselves.
Within a capitalist society, where the lives of those who do not produce profit are not valued, it can lead to some sickening discriminatory behavior from profit-driven institutions.
grandkaiser@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
I cannot think of any successful society to date that did not prioritize rewarding the productive and/or powerful. Not saying that you’re wrong, just that it’s far from exclusive to capitalism.
surph_ninja@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Socialism and communism are specifically designed to put the needs of the people first. ‘From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.’
leftytighty@slrpnk.net 3 weeks ago
theanarchistlibrary.org/…/peter-gelderloos-anarch…
theanarchistlibrary.org/…/petr-kropotkin-mutual-a…
Maybe you can’t think of them but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any.
phoenixz@lemmy.ca 3 weeks ago
Sources on that? Serious question
I’ve heard multiple people claiming this yet haven’t read anything about it
surph_ninja@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
reason.com/…/some-canadian-health-care-patients-s…
newsweek.com/canadians-without-life-threatening-d…
LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
How many of those people being encouraged are actually doing it tho? That should be the main issue, not the fact that people are encouraging them.
surph_ninja@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Nope. Bad take.