When they didn't read the manual

Comments

• finalarbiter@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Maybe a hot take, but I do think that this is correct for trackpads.

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  • RogueBanana@piefed.zip ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Right, I associate scroll wheel to the scroll bar so it makes more sense to pull it down to push the content up. Trackpad is closer to touchscreens so it’s the opposite.

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    • pHr34kY@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      If you’re on a scrollwheel, you’re rolling a wheel down the page, and the viewport moves and the page stays still.

      Sliding the scrollbar does the same. It moves the viewport.

      On a touchscreen, you’re pulling the page directly. The page moves and the viewport stays still.

      A trackpad? I like to think that it’s sliding the scrollbar, not the document.

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  • RickyRigatoni@piefed.zip ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I don’t even like it on trackpads. Down should be down.

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    • mirshafie@europe.pub ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I feel like it’s more of a physical analogy in moving my fingers up to scroll down. It’s like I put my fingers on a piece of paper and dragged it upward, that’s how I would “scroll down”.

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  • olafurp@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I agree, I’m used to the opposite now but “pulling on the content” like you do with smart phones makes more sense.

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  • OtakuAllTheWay@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I even use it on scroll wheels. It just feels natural LOL.

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  • antsu@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    This.

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• tiramichu@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  I prefer the direction apple doesn’t call “natural” and I don’t appreciate the implication my preference is “unnatural” because of it.

  The whole point is that people have different mental models of these things.

  I was using a trackpad before I’d ever owned a device with touchscreen, and so my concept for trackpad is based on mouse:

  • Moving the cursor with a finger is like moving a mouse on the desk - movement agrees with direction
  • Scrolling is like treating the trackpad as a ‘virtual mouse wheel’ - towards you moves the content up.

  And as for why I think the mouse wheel itself should behave like that? It’s because my mental model of the mouse wheel in turn was that it’s a literal physical wheel like a roller that is “against” the view content - and so when the top of the roller moves down the underside of the roller moves the content up.

  All the people who grew up with phones will insist my preference is wrong and freaky and I don’t blame them because I think theirs is.

  There’s no wrong or right here, just whatever collection of mental models built up since childhood our life paths took us down.

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  • zikzak025@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    • Moving the cursor with a finger is like moving a mouse on the desk - movement agrees with direction

    This is where I am as well. I think of scroll direction as the way I move the “camera”. The direction of the wheel is the direction of the frame.

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    • tiramichu@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      We arrived at the same conclusion, but for different reasons!

      You see the wheel as moving the viewport directly (wheel down = view down)

      I see the underside of the wheel as pushing the page/document/etc upwards (wheel down = content up)

      Same preference but the mental model is different. Which is fine, and is really my exact point :)

      This is all why I’m a big fan of always giving options in games etc to invert the controls, and invert x and y independently and all that. You might think “what freak wants this crazy setup?” but SOMEBODY wants it, and if you can give the option then why not! Sometimes the freak might be you.

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  • samus12345@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Image

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• rustydrd@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  This sometimes reminds me of the “invert Y-axis” for camera controls in video games, where someone’s preference can basically determined by the question “Are you old enough to have played the original MS Flight Simulator as a child?”.

  Someone’s preference typically reflects their tactile experiences that they made with their hardware early on, and once something feels “right”, there’s usually no convincing them it’s not (and indeed no point to it). It’s an artificial thing you have to get used to, one way or another, and there’s really no right or wrong way to go about it.

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  • Arrkk@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Maybe I’m weird, but for me it’s always non-invert for look controls, but as soon as I’m in a plane or ship it must be invert.

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    • zqps@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I’m not sure how you’re controlling a ship’s Y-axis, but for planes and helicopters that’s absolutely standard and how it works in the real world. Hence the term “Pull up!”

      The one or two pilots in this thread just read this in the GPWS voice and feel their heart beat a little faster now.

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    • jaaake@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      This is default in most modern games.

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  • quill7513@anarchist.nexus ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    which is why i wish they wouldn’t label one paradigm “natural”

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    • socsa@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      It really does feel like it’s done as rage bait

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  • HereIAm@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    The imagine I have in my head to somehow relate to how inverted-y axis makes sense is that “normal” mouse movement you use the mouse to point where you want the nose to go, mouse goes up, nose goes up. While inverted controls a little stick poking right out of the back of the head, move the stick/mouse up, and you’ll tilt the head down. Doesn’t take into account inverted x movement though 😄

    I think it was in Halo’s tutorial where they ask you to look up, and whatever up or down movement you did on the stick would be considered up. So whatever first impulse you had of pushing the stick up or down would become the looking up direction. Pretty clever.

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• ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Yes, scrolling moves the content. As if it’s being gripped by the bottom of the wheel I’m rotating with my finger from the top.

  Image

  Imagine a toy monster truck on a sheet of paper. Push the wheels forward, page moves backward.

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  • AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Ah, I see the problem. You’re using a rat, not a mouse.

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    • ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Good computer mice are rat-sized and feel like a toy car when gripped. Not a puck.

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• Dookieman12@piefed.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Isn’t this the default Mac behavior?

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  • Hudell@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    And if it wasn’t for the pushback, it would have been the only Mac behavior.

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    • quill7513@anarchist.nexus ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      it’s become the default on mac, windows, and gnome, much to my dismay. i even had to install a gnome plugin to get sanity back

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  • HumanOnEarth@lemmy.ca ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    If it is, may those responsible burn in hell.

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  • lb_o@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Only because Steve Jobs wants to be whimsy

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    • DmMacniel@feddit.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      And look where this whimsy got him.

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• ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Just set it to whatever you prefer. Who cares which direction other people scroll?

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  • i_stole_ur_taco@lemmy.ca ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I do, briefly; when someone hands me their laptop and asks me to fix something.

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• Flatfire@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  On a touch screen, this movement is natural because you’re interacting with the content on the screen, not the view.

  For a mouse, where you’re likely navigating multiple views across different windows, you’re manipulating the view instead of the content and in that context “natural” is an improper term to describe the motion.

  It depends entirely on the convention of the environment.

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  • LodeMike@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    It’s the default for teackpads on Gnome too.

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  • bitjunkie@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    My work computers have been Macs exclusively for about 8 years, and the scroll wheel on my gaming PC feels weird now.

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• TheStaffmaster@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  In ancient times when planes had a simple stick for controls, you pull back to go up and push forward to go down.

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  • DmMacniel@feddit.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    You still do, though?

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• AppleTea@lemmy.zip ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  what else is the scroll wheel for?

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  • Heavybell@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Usually the scroll wheel moves the viewpoint, not the content. I.e. Scrolling the top of the wheel towards yourself (“down”) moves the viewpoint down the page, making the content appear to move up.

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    • tias@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Not just usually; this is how WIMP user interfaces have worked since the 80s, regardless if you use a mouse or another device (e.g. keyboard) to scroll the viewport. It’s built into the data model of the UI toolkit.

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  • pitaya@lemmy.zip ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Scrolling the normal direction

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• Ramsesder13te@feddit.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  The last time I was thinking that way was when I was 5 years or so old and first introduced to a mouse and playing around on the “die Sendungen mit der Maus” Website. Im not using Windows that intensive anymore, is that fucking real?

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  • programmerlexi@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    That’s not windows, that’s GNOME.

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    • Grail@multiverse.soulism.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I hate GNOME

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• grahamja@reddthat.com ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  This is a heated debate in computer assisted modeling/drafting. I forgot between solidworks, unigraphix, or one of the autodesk softwares which had a reveresed scroll default but it was different and a lot of people were trained opposite of everyone else.

  Thats before you even get into a debate about how a spacemouse is supposed to be set up.

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• bilb@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  I have long preferred “natural” (“Inverted” in KDE) for touchpads, and the opposite for mouse scroll wheels. Until reading this thread, I don’t think I’ve thought about it that much.

  I just experimented with switching, and I dunno… I might try using inverted for both for a while. They both feel fine for me after a few seconds of orientation.

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• JelleWho@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  If you scroll UK, should the scrollbar go up? Or should the page go up?

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  • trxxruraxvr@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    If you scroll UK they end up near Iceland

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    • wreckedcarzz@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Do you still have to drive on the left when driving the UK, or do nautical regulations override that?

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• ulterno@programming.dev ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Scrolling moves the content

  Well, what else did you expect it to move?
  The kitchen sink?

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• FluidBeef@quokk.au ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Well, duh.

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