Submitted 1 year ago by undef@feddit.de to [deleted]
https://feddit.de/pictrs/image/a3cd8d95-eefa-4c5f-b3f1-add99ad5c7e5.jpeg
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people. Netanyahu’s government is a monster with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
Palestinians and people of Muslim faith are fine and nice people. Hamas leadership are monsters with genocidal ideas. Some people go along with these terrible ideas.
This is probably the only time I will agree with the “both sides” take on this. My view on this is that it doesn’t mean I agree with killing innocents though. People at the top doing terrible things is no reason to condemn a whole people who very likely had little say in the matter.
Israelis and people of Jewish faith are fine and nice people.
The current state of the Israeli government and the intense fascist impulse driving its leaders to genocide would suggest “the average (enfranchised) Israeli” is maybe not as fine or as nice as we’d like to believe.
Engaging with any kind of online community of Israelis feels like I’m stepping into a Der Sturmer article, what with all the intense hate and vitriol aimed at virtually any non-Israeli.
nypost.com/…/hamas-official-vows-to-repeat-israel…
People in Hamas leadership positions like Ghazi Hamad from this article, who can talk a big talk from the safety of outside Palestine and ignore their people’s suffering.
I don’t give a rats’ ass about Israel’s lies and deception calling everyone and anyone that disagrees with their genocidal tactics as a Hamas sympathizer. Yeah and I’m of the stance that Israeli has had no business being in there for months and are actively commiting genocide, killing a massive excess of civilians and disrupting humanitarian aid.
But make no mistake, just like there are hardcore religious evangelicals in the US there are emboldened religious warmongerers in Palestine who are equally blind to Palestinian suffering for a higher cause as the Israeli extremist government is.
I’m a Jew and pretty sensitive to antisemitism, even dogwhistles. I admit I don’t go to lemmy.ml very often, but from what I’ve seen from lemmy.ml posters posting on lemmy.world, there’s been no antisemitism at all. In fact, I have not seen any antisemitism from anyone here that I can recall, which is pretty amazing in and of itself.
Opposition to Israel’s genocidal regime is not antisemitism.
Go actually look at the .ml worldnews community. There is full mask off “death to Israel” shit all over the place.
“Death to Israel” is also not antisemitic. Jews are not Israelis and Israelis are not Jews. I am not an Israeli. I have no ties or allegiances to Israel, nor do I want them. I think “death to Israel” is an extremist viewpoint, but not an antisemitic one.
Judaism is not Zionism and vice versa
I thougnt at this point everyone understands that state N is not Nians.
If this had been Reddit, I’d have bought credits to award you a gold star.
Given the current state of the website and its admins, that might constitute a bigger act of antisemitism than anything lemmy.ml mods are up to.
Thank you!
Yeah. I am really sick of seeing the argument that any condemnation of the government of Israel is anti-Semitic. It has nothing to do with them being Jewish and everything to do with how they have handled that conflict over the years.
You should go to Indonesia and would feel the anti Jew from the second you land. 🤭
Out of the loop, what do dogwhistles mean regarding antisemitism?
Saying things that aren’t explicitly antisemitic but are basically hidden code for antisemitism. Such as “Globalists.”
Criticizing. Israel. Is. Not. Anti-semitism.
Is criticizing Saudi Arabia “Islamophobia”?
Putin’s propaganda wants russians to belive that criticizing Putin is rusophobia. This post looks exactly like Putin’s propaganda.
I hate Russia though, I’m proud of that
I agree…It’s a tense situation but words have meaning. Anti-Netanyahu does not mean Antisemitism.
Apparently criticising Ukraine is unacceptable though
Oh, do you talk a lot about their corruption scandals?
Anti Zionism ≠ Anti Semitism.
Some people wants every body human rights to be respected, and dennounce crimes against humanity that Israel and Hamas commits, one being an alleged country and the other a terrorist organization.
The right for self determination of Palestinians is not being respected by Israel, so, with confidence I will say Free Palestine!
What’s funny is that Palestinians are literally Semitic
Not this bullshit.
“Antisemitism” as a term refers to hatred of Jews. That’s the common definition. You don’t get to hide behind your neckbeard “Well ackshyully”. Try again.
Dumbass comment. Thanks!
Anti Zionism ≠ Anti Semitism
In the West, maybe. For Hamas specifically…am I seriously the only one who read their charter? They cite the most notorious antisemitic hoax of all time with a straight face and their stated goal is to wipe out Israel and kill Jews.
Very few people are arguing for Hamas. Mostly for the civilians of Palestine. And even Hamas claims it’s changed somewhat since the original charter.
“Yeah but this terrorist organization…” Really dog?
Zionism became a thing when antisemitism was really bad.
Israel became a thing when antisemitism went over itself and even casual antisemites looked in horror at what Nazis had done.
The Palestinian problem today is nested within centuries of the problem of antisemitism.
So tell me what „Anti-Zionism“ means exactly in your opinion.
Anti-Zionism Opposition to Jewish ethnonationalism
Anti-Zionism is opposition to Zionism. Although anti-Zionism is a heterogeneous phenomenon, all its proponents agree that the creation of the modern State of Israel, and the movement to create a sovereign Jewish state in the region of Palestine – the biblical Land of Israel – was flawed or unjust in some way.
Israel is a state
Judaism is a religion
If one disagrees or opposes one, they don't oppose the other. I know that Israel has managed to spin the narrative that Israel and Judaism are the same and everyone opposing the state is basically the same kind of hateful asshole Adolf was, but that's just not true. We here in Germany have struggled a long time with that for obvious reasons. You couldn't call out Israel for doing wrong shit without being called a Nazi. In that past that is. What you've seen isn't "Antisemitism". It's opposition to some of the bullshit Israel is pulling that is the very same kind of bullshit Jews have been subjected to in the past. Or tell me: What's the difference between a Ghetto in 1700s Germany and the Gaza Strip? Correct, the 1700s Ghetto had less travel restrictions.
There is a great push in Israel to be proud of the history of unjust oppression and prosecution Jews have suffered for centuries and how awful being a victim of that was. There is this sense that together, as a nation, they finally have the means to safeguard themselves against shit like that. Yet, that very same nation pulls a swift 180 when it comes to palestinians. Pushing them back into Ghettos, depriving them of any form of economical way out, depriving them of means to get their own electricity, their own water. Paying them pittances for their jobs, restricting travel for them whenever possible. Now, as soon as those people act hostile (go figure), the "state of the oppressed" Israel responds with the military. "A little bombardment will keep them in check, right? How dare they hate us?!"
If the message all the Shoa museums, all the graveyards for the people killed in atrocities was really understood, neither the "West Bank" nor the "Gaza Strip" could exist without Israelites acting up against them.
Rant over.
I agree with your conclusions but it’s an oversimplification to say
Israel is a state
Judaism is a religion
Those things are very tied together, partially because no, Judaism is not just a religion. It’s a culture and ethnicity as well. And given the history of how/why Israel exists, it’s in the unique position of not just being any ole state.
Palestine is also a state (of dubious status).
They are democratic.
Their constituents chose—chose—a party of genocidal antisemites to represent them. Hamas has been transparent about their claimed “struggle against the Jews” since day one. The people seem to want this.
The last two times the West had racists in power we got a Civil War and then a World War (the second being directly antisemitic).
The world said “never again”, and then when someone tried it again, they cheered them on.
So you say that you oppose Israel’s existence itself - the existence as a state, but do not hate Jews in particular, right?
Do you support the existence of an apartheid state? Yes or no answer only.
You can hate on me all you want - keep it coming.
It’s time that everyone involved realizes that Israel will not disappear. Deal with it.
Both sides must put an end to their hate and quit looking backwards - they must look forward. Of course there is a lot of healing to do and amends to make - and this can be done without alienating each other.
Yeah where the fuck is the antisemitism? Fuckin dogshit takes that think one side is clean where the other isnt? Yeah, plenty of that. But antisemitism itself? I havent seen it
Me looking at all get genocide denying ethnostate apologists on lemmy 😥
Why is everyone in the comments section oversimplifying this complex issue? Great reminder that that’s what politics is now, blaming one side and naming the other side pure.
I…I don’t think that’s a “now” thing, unfortunately.
There’s no such thing as nuance any more. If you accept that nuance exists then you might have to accept that acceptable opinion might be wrong, and it might be wrong a lot.
Where? Lemmy.ml usually cracks down on racists pretty hard report them when you see them
I wouldn’t call it antisemitic necessarily. Just dumb.
What is your definition of anti-Semitism?
National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-semitism, as an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of cannibalism.
Anti-semitism is of advantage to the exploiters as a lightning conductor that deflects the blows aimed by the working people at capitalism. Anti-semitism is dangerous for the working people as being a false path that leads them off the right road and lands them in the jungle. Hence Communists, as consistent internationalists, cannot but be irreconcilable, sworn enemies of anti-semitism.
In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty.
J. Stalin
January 12, 1931
Just use the block button, no need to cry about it
I am not antisemitic. I just hate everyone whos involved in a war
The meme is good but I refuse to read the xomments below it, I am very close to quitting Lemmy for good already and only look at my own feed and my local timeline by now because the rest is fucking disgusting!
It’s time that everyone involved realizes that Israel will not disappear. Deal with it.
Both sides must put an end to their hate and quit looking backwards - they must look forward. Of course there is a lot of healing to do and amends to make - and this can be done without alienating each other.
Just remember if someone steal your lawn you get to wholesale murder them and their offspring forever with 0 repercussions.
And if someone asks a moral question of you, disengage by calling them a zionist. Don’t forget to spend your whole day posting inflammatory propaganda and getting butthurt over fantasy-conversations you had with yourself.
General public is quite polarized leaning towards extremist thinking. Not only in terms of recent events in Israel/Gaza.
Oh my God!! I’m deeply offended at everything and I live eternally online so I can bash the fash. Anything you say to me is wrong because my opinions are always correct. Get rekt chud!
shiroininja@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Is it real antisemitism or just not supporting Israel?
About when they start going on about “Zionists” Is where I draw the line and where it typically takes a turn.
As a Jewish person, I find it healthy to criticize the Israeli government. Most young Israelis do. Their government has been steamrolled by a wannabe dictator that is corrupt as hell and his team of racist, backwards conservative orthodox buddies.
They were just protesting in the streets weeks ago and now we’re expected to turn around and support the government? Nah. This doesn’t change anything.
Taleya@aussie.zone 1 year ago
The problem is a lot of people don’t differentiate between the israeli government and the israeli people as a whole - i’ve seen some straight up ‘they had it coming’ style bullshit that is verrry careful to place Good Jews and Bad Jews (the festival goers) to try and get a pass on antisemitsm and maaaan it is transparent as fuck.
nottheengineer@feddit.de 1 year ago
But that’s how politics work nowadays. You need to assume that every group is homogenous and when someone from that group points out that it isn’t, you call them a hypocrite.
MissJinx@lemmy.world 1 year ago
No child is to blame about any of this. And when I think about this (i’m sorry) very stupid conflict, all I can think is people killing children because of land. FUCKING DIRT. Not a specific people, just people, humans, killing children becuase a piece o land, that to be fair it fits everyone! That is of a stupidity that I can not fathom
x86x87@lemmy.one 1 year ago
What are you talking about? I know Jewish people that openly condemn the behavior of their gov. A person is good or bad depending on their actions - you cannot lump everyone together based on whatever characteristics you want and after that starting a genocide campaign.
The festival goes were just normal people like you and me that were trying to live and enjoy life. Same with the innocent people that are dying in Gaza.
WhaleScenery@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I must admit, it’s quite refreshing to hear a critical take on the Israeli government from an actual Israeli. I don’t know if it’s due to the news sources and forums I typically frequent, but I feel like it’s quite rare to hear an opinion from someone who actually lives there.
FunctionFn@feddit.nl 1 year ago
IDK about the person you’re responding to, but
There are a lot of Jews that don’t fit into either of those categories. Ethnic and cultural Jewish people that don’t practice or believe in Judaism as a religion are very common. I call myself Jewish, because my mother and my grandmother are Jewish, but I don’t practice the religion. I’d recommend googling Jewish Atheism and Jewish Secularism for more info.
dumdum666@kbin.social 1 year ago
Many of the Comments I had to read on Lemmy.ml were like „Israelian Civilians deserved that Terror attack“ so make of that what you like.
undef@feddit.de 1 year ago
I also disagree with many things the Israeli government does. But when people ignore the complete history of Israel and exclusively ventilate the pro-Palestinian propaganda, a red line is crossed for me.
ShunkW@lemmy.world 1 year ago
The complete history of Israel forcing Palestinians into ghettos and systematically slaughtering them? The fact that they told civilians to flee to the south and then bombed the very area they claimed would be safe? The fact that they claim the right to self determination but refuse to allow the Palestinians the same right? The fact that netanyahu funded Hamas to destabilize the region so that he’d have pretense to carry out his war crimes?
I don’t condone the attacks by Hamas, but to pretend that Israel isn’t trying to carry out a genocide is crossing a red line for me.
Bassman27@lemmy.world 1 year ago
What about the people ignoring complete history of the Palestinian people and blindly supporting Isreal?
zaph@sh.itjust.works 1 year ago
I’m extremely curious what you see as the complete history.
archiotterpup@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I don’t see how European guilt for allowing a genocide excuses another.
Toldry@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I’m one of the Israelis who frequently attended the anti-government protest.
I expect you not to support the Israeli government, but to support the Israeli people’s right to defend ourselves from terrorists.
Regardless of whether Israel has a right wing or left wing government, we will not allow thousands of us to be massacred.
We won’t stand by and twiddling our thumbs waiting for the next Hamas attack to kill more of us without responding with our full force.
None of this contradicts the fight to end the occupation. You can be anti-Hamas and anti-occupation at the same time.
Nuance is possible!
RupeThereItIs@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I would say isreal has a right to defend itself, but not if they keep stealing land and oppressing the people who attack them.
If you want to defend yourself, first, you have to stop attacking the people who you claim to be defending against.
Hamnas is human garbage, but one can not separate the creation of Israel from the ghettoizing of the Palestinian people.
Nobody deserves terrorist attacks, but this didn’t come out of the blue.
Isreal needs to own up to it’s complicity in the violence before they try to claim to be the sole victims of it.
Jaderick@lemmy.world 1 year ago
You cannot separate Zionism from the formation of the state of Israel and how the history of the conflict has been shaped since.
In order to obtain a more holistic perspective of the conflict people need to know about Zionism, it’s history, and how it currently affects Israeli leadership.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
uca.edu/…/british-palestine-1917-1948/
npr.org/…/netanyahu-says-israel-is-nation-state-o…
feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Literally kicked Bibi out, and he got back into power. It’s crazy.
OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip 1 year ago
People should really stop conflating anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Unfortunately it’s very common and even part of the official classifications used by some countries. To me it seems obvious that this is another attempt to cut off any criticism of the state of Israel by labeling critics as anti-Semitic. Here’s an interesting read about how flawed that logic is:
theguardian.com/…/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionis…
HKPiax@lemmy.world 1 year ago
Could you elaborate on the “zionist” thing? I haven’t really followed the Israel situation (I tried, but it’s just so complicated). What I heard, is that “zionist” is used when talking about the Israel activity in “taking” territory from the surrounding area, is that correct or did I just misunderstand? If I’m not wrong, then what happens when they start going on about it?
OpenPassageways@lemmy.zip 1 year ago
The idea that discussing Zionism is a sign of an anti-semite is a shit take. The Zionist movement worked very hard to establish a colony in the middle east, in an area where they knew there were already natives and those natives were hostile to being colonized. It’s impossible to truly study the founding of Israel without learning about the Zionist movement.
This isn’t about religion, or even very much about race. It’s about the powerful asserting their will over the powerless. To some extent you could argue that the Zionists were used by the British to screw over the Arabs, but that doesn’t make the Zionists innocent.
Equating discussions of Zionism with anti-Semitism is part of the Israeli propaganda playbook for dismissing all criticism of Israel’s founding.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Nothing lemmy.world loves more than bagging on the *.ml instance, so I’m going to take a wild guess at the latter. If it was self-referential “Me looking at all the antisemitism on lemmy.world” it never would have received this much positive attention.
Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Often it’s real antisemitism, yeah
HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I’m a big proponent of understanding folk better. Zionism is one of those terms with subtext. Acquaintances I know who use it (some of whom I can believe not understanding the subtext) do a better job explaining that they don’t support ethnostates rather than they don’t support zionism.
But to be fair my experience is mostly people half a globe away trying to look like they’re staying current and relevant in the news and trying to show sympathy with people they view as oppressed and hurt, without taking the time to truly dig into the history of the conflict and having never even heard the word intifada. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt while sharing with them the tiny bit I’ve learned. They do the same for me. We’ve got a wide variety of views at one of my lunch groups and it’s phenomenal.