Submitted 13 hours ago by eccentric@lemm.ee to mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/pictrs/image/e7b7ef78-0881-4d8c-9bdb-266b7355f8c6.webp
cross-posted from: lemm.ee/post/50439521
cross-posted from: lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/33851469
The comparison is definitely stupid because this guy planned the whole thing! Its not like he accidentally started a rebellion in an accidentally treasonous way while trying to steal the office of a high government official. Everyone knows the punishment for that is …another 4 years of government.
My personal tinfoil hat is that they are seeking the death penalty so he accepts a deal. They are scared of jury nullification.
That isn’t tinfoil-hat at all. I was reading a news story recently about how worried they are that they’ll have trouble finding impartial jurors, since there’s so much sympathy for him.
The state of New York is about to get a firsthand lesson in the Streisand Effect. They should have just charged him the same charge any normal killer would get - Second Degree Murder, which is the normal charge for premeditated murder in NY. First degree requires rare special circumstances, and the prosecutor chose to use a dubious “terrorism” modifier to up the charge to Murder 1. They just couldn’t help themselves, and they shot themselves in the foot.
The advantage to the prosecution to a simple Murder 2 charge is that motive really doesn’t matter much. They just have to prove that Luigi pulled the trigger. But with the terrorism modifier, the trial will no devolve into lengthy discussions about his motives and message. Not only have they now given him the world’s largest soapbox, but this will also give the defense an opportunity to make him much more sympathetic to the jury. With only a Murder 2 charge, the defense lawyer would have had to fight hard to sneak subtle hints into trial about Luigi’s motives. Now his motives will be a core part of the prosecution’s case.
With a simple Murder 2 trial, even jurors who thought Thompson got what he deserved could vote to convict based simply on the letter of the law. Luigi killed an evil man, but he still has to face the consequences like any other criminal. Now the jury will clearly see that the system isn’t treating him like any other criminal. The prosecutors, through their own actions, are making Luigi’s case for him - the justice system is completely rigged in favor of the rich and powerful, and the only way they can ever be held accountable is through violence.
All it takes is one juror of twelve to look around at the situation and say, “this is bullshit. I’m not going to convict.” Sure, they can try him again with a new jury if he’s not found unanimously not-guilty, but that jury will have an even greater risk of jury nullification. The longer this goes on, the more likely the prosecutor just has to offer him some sweetheart plea deal just to get him convicted of something. And each trial just elevates Mangione that much closer to literal Sainthood in the popular imagination.
Yeah, first degree requires a deep look into the motives, which is really good for him.
Here’s some legal analysis by legal eagle youtu.be/vXkH-G_8xew
Except in every step things can develop the ways you haven’t thought about.
And courtroom shows are kinda common enough in movies and even in reality. People will have strong feelings, but this doesn’t seem a major thing for many.
So - too much copium. I hope you are right and I am wrong, of course.
I, too, watched Legal Eagle’s video.
This is a dumb take. Since 2005 you cannot use capital punishment for minors see en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roper_v._Simmons
Most school shooters are under 18, Luigi is 26.
Looking at this, the vast majority of them are adults: …wikipedia.org/…/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_…
The far bigger reason is that most don’t survive to be prosecuted.
Because it’s about sending a message. They’ve seen how popular this guy and his actions have become and are trying to throw everything at him so it puts off any copycats.
True, hopefully it will backfire.
Death penalty increases violence because murdering the person catching you becomes a way to increase your likelihood of surviving.
The death penalty has not been executed in NY/federal court for decades right? Doesn’t seem like an actual threat. What they want to achieve is a good negotiating position for a plea bargain because they known a trial will be a shitshow.
They really gonna try to turn this guy into a martyr?
Adding “Mangione gets a shrine” to my 2025 bingo
Then we need to make him a saint.
St. Luigi of Baltimore, forgive us our debts, deliver us from the greed of the wicked…
And shepherds we shall be.
For Thee, my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand.
That our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
So we shall flow a river forth to Thee.
And teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In Nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritus Sancti."
Looks like it.
That.doesnt work out historically for them.
I kind of think they don’t know what to do about this.
It doesn’t seem smart for them to make him a martyr. Doesn’t seem smart to Epstein him.
I’ve been thinking for a few years now that, since no one with power ever seems to know what they’re doing, there’s something about power itself that makes the person who holds it selfish and incompetent.
I do believe it would be a tactical error on their part to give him the death penalty… make a real martyr
Yeah, killing him seems like the best way to get riots all over the country…
MILDLY infuriating??!?
The !ExtremelyInfuriating@lemmy.world community seemed dead so I posted it here instead.
To put it mildly. 😋
US citizens, are you planning to protest?
We would, but most of us are too unhealthy from lack of access to affordable healthcare and can lose our jobs if we try to take time off work.
Tinfoil hat time. Our government fucking hates our asses. Lower class? Get shot, die from preventable diseases, whatever, just do it quietly so it doesn’t bother the wealthy while they grease each other’s palms.
We have the Russian “and then it got worse” do nothing attitude. We aren’t even gonna try to do anything till its far too late.
When we have protests large enough to get noticed, we get attacked by the police. Why should the protesters have to suffer? Make the oppressors suffer instead.
How
Yes there are double standards but this is the wrong comparison to make that point.
Most school shooters are minors who are inelligible for the death penalty, and a large percentage don’t survive their own shooting. Either death by cop or suicide.
I have no love for insurance CEOs or our capital-first justice system, but if you’re gonna make a point don’t leave it open to be so easily picked apart.
Of the adult school shooters, which is most of them anyway, try and find a handful.
We’re just going to ignore that school shooters are generally students and thus not tried as adults? Okay then.
An interesting factoid. In Finnish language “väkivalta” means violence. It is a combination word: väki = people, crowd, folk valta = power, reign
So… in Finland “democracy” and “violence” are the same thing? xD
Väki also means (or at least used to) ‘power’ or ‘strong’ (väkivahva, väkijuoma…) and that’s also where the etymology for ‘väkivalta’ comes from. So it’s got nothing to do with people.
This is true.
Valta also sounds like a Germanic loan just a second… yep. Same root as German “Gewalt”, violence, “walten”, to rule, preside, also English wield.
What’s it with Finnish. One third borrowed from Estonian, another third from the Swedes, the rest from the Sami.
Doesn’t make sense to compare a rate of an outcome (without even knowing how often that outcome was sought) with an individual attempt whose outcome is not even known yet.
When Mangione IS actually given the death penalty, this ‘argument’ will actually amount to something. Dumb until then.
Because most school shooters aren’t adults.
Yeah, because the US “justice” system famously never treats juvenile defendants as adults in order to mete out draconian punishment that eliminates all chances for rehabilitation…
The US Supreme Court prevented people who committed crimes as juveniles from being executed a number of years ago. Trump’s group might change that, but for now it is the law. They technically cannot be incarcerated forever either.
And they have definitely ratified the UNCRC because they definitely do not want to put kids in adult prisons, right?
apnews.com/…/unitedhealthcare-ceo-killing-luigi-m…
That doesn’t mean they can’t be tried as terrorists. The main problem here is actually whether or not the facts of the crime actually allow for a terrorism charge. Fact is, he had a manifesto (see ideological goals), and the shooting was a violent criminal act.
According to the FBI that’s all it takes. It may also be what is lacking in the case of some school shooters.
While I am generally on the side of “CEO FAFO”, I recognize that the problem here is that the FBI and the laws they follow are flawed (probably deliberately) in such a way that they only target those who target the wealthy.
Shooting up a school is an act of terrorism if you do it because you’re targeting a soft target in an attempt to hurt the local, state or federal government or you’re religiously motivated etc. But not if you were bullied.
There’s been plenty of over 18 mass shooters who also haven’t been charged with terrorism. And with each one there’s people who will say they don’t want the US to become more of a police state because they believe that counterterrorism techniques (which we use internationally) shouldn’t be used against the general population.
The federal government has a habit of overstepping the rights and freedoms of the general public any time they feel like they are under attack. We saw this with 9/11 and the Patriot act. So I can see their reasoning even if I don’t agree that mass shooters should be considered terrorists under the law.
Shouldn’t there be leniency for killing a killer?
Yes I know it’s about “sending a message”, but messages go both ways.
In this case, I wouldn’t even call Luigi a killer. He’s a hero, if any.
When the killing is in self defense or in the defense of many, many victims, is this called justifiable homicide?
Maybe they should charge his parents too, like they did with some other school shooters. But wait, his parents are rich and the other ones lived in trailer parks.
He’s an adult. Parents get charged when they don’t properly secure their firearms from their minor child, which isn’t what is being alleged here. It’s not really comparable.
And now that Republicans are set to have the Presidency, Congress and SCOTUS all at the same time, there doesn’t seem to be any barriers left.
Abolish capital punishment!
FFS, it’s not even him, people need to stop accepting he is the killer. He is not, news made sure that pics from the killing footage were buried so people would forgot them, because when you compare them with Luigi, its obviously NOT him… And there is no doubt here, killer is smaller, whiter (like Irish white), slim eyebrows, and less muscle body shape than Luigi.
Why do people try to make him a martyr, when it is not even the killer.
If he isn’t the killer, why did he have the same gun as the killer and a notebook detailed who he was going to kill and how he was going to do it?
Because he is a patsy.
New York doesn’t have the death penalty though?
I wonder why executioners don’t get doxxed.
This you shall offer in the morning and this you shall offer at twilight, a lamb without blemish.
Blocked
sndmn@lemmy.ca 2 hours ago
Good luck finding a jury to convict him of jaywalking.
Some homicides are self defence.
scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 35 minutes ago
We’re in a pretty nice bubble here on Lemmy and the fediverse. There’s a LOT of bootlickers who happily want him convicted