How come LED Light Bulbs only last for about 2-3 Years?

Submitted ⁨⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨counselwolf@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨[deleted]⁩

I’ve bought and replaced a lot of light bulbs, and I noticed that all of them said “up to 20,000 hours” which would be about 5 years given 12 hours of daily use (which we definitely don’t).

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BearOfaTime@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I have a dozen that run 12+ hours a day. I’ve had 1 fail in 5 years.

Don’t buy cheap LEDs, and don’t put them in enclosures that trap heat.

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- rtxn@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Speaking from experience: LED drivers hate dirty power. If they burn out frequently, check the wiring for damage. I probably avoided a house fire.
  
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  - Albbi@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Dirty power? Aww geez it’s been a few years since I last washed and waxed my power lines. Guess I gotta open up the walls again.
    
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  - BearOfaTime@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    That’s a good point. LEDs dislike unstable power a LOT more than incandescent or fluorescent.
    
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  - trolololol@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    As an EE graduate I want to hear more about what dirt means and what driver can be affected by it. I’d expect power electronics to stand 100% over voltage over short periods and easy 20% long term, which would blow up lots of other things on the house before the driver or the LED starts performing worse.
    
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- sparky1337@ttrpg.network ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Yep. When I moved into my house the previous owner had used all garbage Walmart LED’s. I think I had one fail each month and just bought a bunch on sale from Phillips eventually.
  
  Most common failure was the driver. So they turned into strobe lights lol. Most annoying failure ever.
  
  And more importantly, not every LED is dimmer compatible. Sometimes they’re super picky or just plain don’t work.
  
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  - pseudonym@monyet.cc ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Can you recommend which ones to buy? I have the strobe light problem and it is indeed very annoying
    
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  - trolololol@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Oh dang, a cheap driver is probably $0.50 cheaper than a half decent one that can take the hit.
    
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CmdrShepard@lemmy.one ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Generally because you’re buying cheaper ones that aren’t built as well. Heat destroys LEDs and the cheap bulbs generally use fewer individual LEDs running at higher power to produce a given output in lumens. More expensive bulbs use more LEDs at lower power to achieve the same light output so that they’re not constantly being overdriven and last much longer.

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- counselwolf@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  What would you recommend?
  
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  - acosmichippo@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I have dozens of Philips Hue bulbs 6-10 years old and I honestly don’t think one of them has died. I’m sure they have lost some luminance over time, but they still get the job done no problem. I rarely run them at 100% anyway.
    
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  - OhmsLawn@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Phillips warm glow are my favorites after watching technology connections. They last, and they look just like incandescent bulbs as you dim them.
    
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  - CmdrShepard@lemmy.one ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I just buy a cheap jumbo pack from Amazon. They’re like 15 bucks and last for years which is good enough for me.
    
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  - KillingAndKindess@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Lighting a campfire
    
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millifoo@lemmings.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Heat.

While the actual LEDs (*) may be rated up to 20,000 hours+ in optimum circumstances, but the actual 3rd party bulb manufacturers, especially the cheapo brands, are building bulbs with poor heat dissipation designs and cheap and/or poorly designed circuits. Same goes for other parts they may use, such as the power supply. To reach 20,000+ hours, you need everything - not just the LED - to be working optimally together.

(*) the best LED makers out there right now, e.g. Nichia, Cree, Phillips - really do some amazing engineering.

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- shalafi@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I was going to being up Nichia and Cree! (I’m a flashlight junkie, can’t help it.) There’s a world of difference in quality LEDs vs. cheap units.
  
  I have 3x CREE floodlight-style bulbs on my terrarium, never lost one. The CRI (color rendering index) is 90+ (94?) and the colors are natural. If you contrast those with a regular LED, the results are gross.
  
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gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
The same reason that western countries refused to buy the extremely hard to break Superfest glasses manufactured in the GDR (East Germany) during the Cold War: planned obsolescence and consumable goods mentality in the interest of profit (they got a west German salesman to take the glasses to a trade show, and nobody gave a shit, because part of the industry’s profit model at the time was the sale of new glass due to breakage.

In point of fact: better, longer lasting LED bulbs DO exist, but they’re only sold in Dubai (due to the monarchy there basically decreeing that they wanted that to happen, so Phillips made them for them, but will NOT sell them outside of the country, because it would kill their sales elsewhere).

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FeelzGoodMan420@eviltoast.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Since people are just giving snarky douchebag replies, I’ll actually attempt to answer the question since that’s what this community is for?

The estimate given on the packages of these bulbs are absolute best case scenario, using an optimal temperature range and pattern of use that won’t really match up with the average household because:

You may go on vacation and let your house get cold or hot. This could affect the life of thr bulb

The manufacturer is likely leaving the bulbs on 24/7 when measuring. Most people turn lights on and off multiple times throughout the day. This can decrease the life of thr bulb, just like with any other electronic device.

Humidity in the house can change dramatically year round. Manufacturing tests probably keep a constant humidity level.

If you’re buying cheap random LED bulbs off Amazon from dogshit brands (i do thid too so not knocking you), the manufacturer estimates might just straight up be a lie.

I’m sure there are other reasons but that’s a good start.
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- trolololol@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  LEDs can take quite a beating. The only thing that degrades then is being on, and being hot. For all purposes unless it’s inside a restaurant kitchen or they’re on, they’re not hot.
  
  Other packaged electronic components follow the same rules. Except wires and solder that can oxidize without being used.
  
  So no, I think that’s a grift if you can’t reach 5 years. When domestic LED lighting was in infancy we’d hear all power LEDs, like for cars, should last 10 years.
  
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  - FeelzGoodMan420@eviltoast.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    It wouldn’t degrade from being shut off and on a bunch of times? I know like HDDs can degrade faster if they’re constantly powered off and on.
    
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winterayars@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
They’ve been sabotaged by design. LEDs should last 10+ years if built even half away reasonably, but unfortunately the manufacturers basically got together and agreed to build them in such a way they would fail. Same as regular light bulbs, they just have to work harder.

I still have some of the earliest modern LED bulbs on the market–old Philips ones, the AmbientLED (i think) with the yellow casing and large heat sinks. They’ve been running for like 15 years now and not a one of them has failed. I spent several hundred USD replacing all my bulbs with those back in the day and they’ve done me well.

Modern bulbs are trash by comparison. Not because the technology is limited in some way but because they refuse to make anything to that quality anymore.

We need an alternate solution to this planned obsolescence bullshit. Light bulbs hit 50k rated hours long ago and they were talking about making ones that went 100k+ but these days you can’t find anything above 25k. And that’s setting aside the fact that a lot of these rely on apps that could be dropped at a moment’s notice.

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- nothingcorporate@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Wait til people hear that GE, Phillips, and others literally created a cartel to sabotage light bulb lifespan. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel
  
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  - winterayars@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    One of the originators of the idea of “planned obsolescence”. Even after the cartel got killed the manufacturers never extended the life of the lights into (to an extent) CFLs and then moreso the days of LEDs.
    
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- partial_accumen@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  I still have some of the earliest modern LED bulbs on the market–old Philips ones, the AmbientLED (i think) with the yellow casing and large heat sinks.
  
  I bought a couple of those for an enclosed fixture inside a skylight. The ceiling height there is 20 feet, plus another 2ft into the skylight tunnel. I bought those LED bulbs (at $40/each) because I never wanted to change them. Both bulbs were still fully functional 15 years later. I have since sold that house, but I bet they’re still functioning.
  
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Raiderkev@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I replaced my mom’s can lights with LEDs and I was an early adopter. I believe it was ~2012-15 ish. Not a single one has died. The only reason any of them fail now is poor quality and / or planned obsolescence. The tech itself is solid AF. I had some bulbs I got from IKEA for $1. Those have failed countless times.

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nimpnin@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
They don’t? What are you talking about?

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- BruceTwarzen@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Cheap ones do.
  
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  - nimpnin@sopuli.xyz ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I have never had that happen and I buy my bulbs from the grocery store
    
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  - Valmond@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I have still to have a led light break. They just never do, I buy mine at aliexpress or IKEA or wherever.
    
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- k_rol@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Is Lemmy worse than Reddit to answer no stupid questions?
  
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  - FeelzGoodMan420@eviltoast.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Yes Lemmy is just as dogshit, if not more than Reddit in terms of smug bullshit replies. I’ll be downvoted to oblivion by saying this so hopefully someone sees my comment before it goes to the bottom…
    
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hperrin@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Lights like this:

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Have PCBs with LEDs surface mounted to them. This means that the on-off cycle of the bulb causes heat deformation cycles of the PCB. This stresses the foils in the PCB and can eventually cause them to lose connection. That’s why they’ll often start flickering or lose the ability to be cool white, warm white, or specific colors (the different kinds of LEDs in them).

But lights like this:

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Use LEDs that aren’t mounted to the PCBs, and will probably last much longer.

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- englislanguage@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Are you sure? Doesn’t the “smart edison bulb” design make it harder to dissipate heat to the casing, therefore making the LEDs get hotter compared to PCBs with LEDs surface mounted on them?
  
  Anyway, if you want your ~~light bulbs~~any technology to last long, don’t buy the “smart” variant. “Smart” usually means more components and/or more dependencies on interfaces, and more complexity, so a higher chance to fail.
  
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  - TheRealKuni@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Technology Connections seems to think they’re better and last longer, and I trust him implicitly.
    
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kitnaht@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Get the ones with the strip LEDs that look like they’re trying to emulate a glowing tungsten filament. I can’t remember where I got the information; it was like the Technology Connections YouTube channel or something, but I remember them saying that since they put the LED lights in series on those bulbs, they have a much higher voltage requirement to drive them, and much less circuitry is needed. It’s the circuitry that burns out, and many of these filament-style LED lights literally only have a resistor as their main component.

I’ve swapped to these kinds of LEDs like…5 years ago, and haven’t had one burn out yet. Probably have like…15 of them across the entire house.

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- shalafi@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Almost every bulb in my house is the filament style and it’s always surprising when one dies. The 4 in my porch lights are on 24/7, in all weather of course, and have been for 4 years.
  
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- ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  It’s the circuitry that burns out, and many of these filament-style LED lights literally only have a resistor as their main component.
  
  Not true. I’ve been dumpster-diving for LED bulbs for 5 years and in the majority of cases, it’s one LED in a series chain that burns out (fails open circuit). As for the circuitry, the most common failure point is the inductor between the capacitors smoothing out the rectified mains voltage.
  
  Mains filament bulbs with nothing but a resistor exist but they flicker between 0 and 100% at 100 or 120 Hz, which is not very pleasant. Good filament ones have circuitry very similar to the plastic ones. The reason filament bulbs last longer is better heat dissipation from the LEDs, and the circuitry does not get too hot either.
  
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Kerb@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
i have 7 bulbs since 2019
none of them failed so far.

all the lifespans i found ranged between 15.000 to 25.000 hours ( which btw was equated to 1.000 hours per year instead of 5.000 per year)

so this doesn’t sound normal to me.

how manny(in use) bulbs do you have?
what brands do you use?

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tfw_no_toiletpaper@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Mine work for I think over 10 years now. Some of the actual LEDs inside died but you don’t really notice 1-2 of 200 inside the bulb being dark.

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- ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I have been dumpster-diving for LED bulbs for 5 years. None of them had 200 chips, they usually have about 5-30 packages with 1-6 diodes each for a total of around 30-60 so that they total some 90-180 V in series (I live in a 230V mains region, and the 330V rectified mains can be efficiently transformed to that voltage by an SMPS). Because they are in series, if one in the series chain fails open circuit (the most common way), the entire chain goes out. Yes, fixtures (not bulbs) with 100+ LED chips exist and if they are designed to operate at a low voltage with all chips in parallel, the failure of one will not affect the others.
  
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  - hydroxycotton@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    This sounds like an interesting hobby? Care to share more about how/why you are into dumpster diving for lightbulbs?
    
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dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Typically it’s not the emitters – the LED’s themselves – that fail. If driven correctly, those have lifetimes of tens of thousands of hours.

LED “bulbs,” the type that replace filament bulbs in consumer fixtures, typically fail in their driver hardware. LED’s run off of low voltage DC and in the base of all of those LED conversion bulbs is a power conversion assembly that steps down and rectifies 120v/240c AC to whatever DC voltage the LED array in there expects. These are inevitably made out of whatever the cheapest passives and semiconductor components the manufacturer thinks they can get away with.

The main killer for all semiconductor electronics, which includes both LED’s themselves and their driver circuitry, is heat. This is often exacerbated by the fact that LED replacement modules are usually stuck in enclosed light fixtures designed for filament bulbs that have insufficient ventilation to get rid of the waste heat from the components in an LED module. The insides of those enclosed ceiling light fixtures, the ubiquitous “boob light,” gets hot, even with only LED modules installed. Filament bulbs don’t care because they don’t have any electronics in them and how they work is literally by getting so hot the glow. But LED modules in that kind of environment will invariably suffer an early failure.

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- aaaaace@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Excellent.
  
  Also, the D stands for diode, which is a one-way passage for electricity, some rectifiers may use diodes in their circuitry. So another way to cut costs is to not rectify completely or well.
  
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  - dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Case in point, cheap LED Christmas lights are often not rectified at all so they flicker at 50/60 Hz depending on your country’s electrical supply…
    
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- AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Hah, I have one three bulb boob light that’s my “trash” fixture because it gets whatever mismatched leftover I can find. At one point I had an LED, and incandescent and a CFL in it. It doesn’t have the extra ventilation that modern ones do so I’m sure it gets hot, but even that doesn’t seem to shorten the lives much
  
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Blackmist@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Maybe stop buying the seizure-brand ones from Amazon?

I think I’ve had to replace one bulb in my entire house in the last 6 years or so.

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Mr_Blott@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Only buy Philips or Osram

The rest are shite

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- Fuzzy_Red_Panda@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  +1 for philips.
  
  The problem is most of what the big box hardware stores in the US are selling are junk brands. And they won’t even offer basics like a philips 75-watt-equivalent soft-white led in their stores.
  
  The junk brand bulbs will fail in my kitchen light fixture after a year (they start flickering). The philips bulbs have never failed for me.
  
  A properly designed and produced led bulb should last like 20 years.
  
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- Maalus@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Osram literally means “I’ll shit on it” in polish, they are the definition of a shit brand
  
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  - Mr_Blott@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Millions of electricians would disagree, but I can’t speak for Polish sparkies
    
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- greyfox@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I’ve got several full color Hue bulbs that are the most used lights in my house. I haven’t had a single failure in a decade.
  
  I was more than a little annoyed when they decided to stop supporting my original controller for them though.
  
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- piyuv@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Ikea’s are nice too
  
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Treczoks@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
They never last that long, as they easily get away with it.

In one of the gulf states, though (Dubai?), they actually have only longer lasting LED lights for sale, as the minister responsible for regulation is something like an EE and forced the LED bulb providers to make a special version of those bulbs that basically last for ever. Those are only sold in that country, and hard to come by elsewhere.

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orcrist@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Stop buying the cheap ones. :-)

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plz1@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I’ve had sets of LED under-cabinet lights powered on 24/7 for about 14 years. I think one bulb went bad, out of 12.

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- ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  They are probably very low-power and don’t get hot, which would kill them faster.
  
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ShunkW@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I have had the same light bulbs since 2012. One of them broke when I dropped it while moving. Otherwise, no issues at all. Philips brand that I bought a box of 12 of when I moved into an apartment that year. Maybe I’m just lucky, but still no issues.

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A32topsL@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

What would you recommend?

Philips.

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SomeAmateur@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
The bulbs themselves are amazing. There are good ones in cars and computers, the flash of phones etc.

The failure point is typically the electronic components that run or regulate it. And of course most companies want to sell more bulbs so they conveniently skimp on that stuff. So maybe the answer is a more expensive bulb that hopefully will last long enough to justify the extra cost?

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- counselwolf@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  What would you recommend that actually last long enough to justify the extra cost?
  
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  - Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    If you can get a hold of Dubai Led bulbs, they are supposed to last extremely long
    
    hackaday.com/…/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-y…
    
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  - tburkhol@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    If you’re technically inclined, Big Clive has a tutorial for ‘fixing’ most bulbs not to overdrive the LEDs by removing or changing a single resistor. www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HTa2jVi_rc
    
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  - perviouslyiner@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Make sure to choose lamp fittings that don’t trap the heat.
    
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Kolanaki@yiffit.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
My LED bulbs don’t even say how long they last, but my experience with LEDs in general tells me they will last practically forever. Out of all the LED things I have, the only ones with any burnt out lights are a couple of cheap LED strips I have and I can’t even be sure the ones that are dead weren’t because of where I cut the strip.

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AlexisFR@jlai.lu ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
? What are you talking about?

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- k_rol@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  No stupid questions
  
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Kaliax@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Planned obsolescence

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I_Clean_Here@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Can’t actually remember when or if I had a LED bulb die on me yet. Knock on wood …

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Cornflake_Dog@lemmy.wtf ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I’m no scientist, but I think it has something to do with actually turning the light off and on that’s actually stressful to most light bulbs. I mean check out the Centennial Light (wiki link). I know it’s an entirely different type of lightbulb, but they have run that light almost continuously since 1901, and it’s largely believed that continuous operation has kept it going for so long (though it has dimmed quite significantly).

I suspect that 20,000 hours operation is likely expected under continuous illumination, not ever turning the light off.

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- Benaaasaaas@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  LEDs literally work by flickering constantly, they are always turning off/on. The answer is planned obsolescence. Technology connections video on the topic. There is also veritasium one.
  
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  - Valmond@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I think he thinks about heat generation. A PWM signal (the ‘flicker’) won’t do anything bad, but it will still generate heat, or not when it’s turned off.
    
    Not everything is planned obsolescence, some is just badly engineered cheap stuff.
    
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psmgx@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
What are the brands? What are the appliances? Have you tested the electricity coming out of those ports?

Mine are generally good for near 5

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tired_n_bored@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I fix my LED bulbs when they stop working

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- NerfHerder@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  How so?
  
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  - RvTV95XBeo@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Just Google “how to increase my fire risk to save $2 on a new LED”. Should be a how to guide or two out there.
    
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  - tired_n_bored@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Well I’ve done it just twice, I don’t even remember what I did, I just soldered things that seemed broken.
    
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tiefling@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
FWIW, I’ve killed a bunch of Phillips hue bulbs through normal use

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ThePantser@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Killer of LED bulbs is heat. If you have some in fixtures that trap heat you should either replace the fixtures or get high quality bulbs for those fixtures. Look for bulbs rated for hot locations. And for outdoors make sure it’s rated for wet areas.

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