Submitted 1 year ago by return2ozma@lemmy.world to workreform@lemmy.world
https://fortune.com/2023/09/20/workers-managers-disagree-commute-define-productivity-differently/
Oh it’s simple. Would you be commuting if you didn’t have the job? No? Then it’s work related and should be compensated.
If you have a two hour daily commute you should be paid for those two hours. Hell the company should probably pay for the cost of commuting and a tax for offsetting the emissions.
They would just not hire people that live two hours away.
But the pool of people living close enough is really small.
I would move as far as possible from the job site. 2 hours one way on a train watching Netflix, 4 hours work, 2 hours relax on the train. That would be nice.
…and you just wouldn’t get hired, because the guy who lives next to their office is a more attractive option, even if he’s only 80% as productive as you.
And that’s arguably why it makes some sense; companies would be more likely to hire more locally and be more flexible about remote work - both of which save precious planetary resources ánd people’s time.
okay but when do chores happen? i can barely keep up on dishes and laundry with a 45 minute commute each way. sleep, too…
You’re highlighting that it’s not a great solution, but at least a 2x hourly rate a day flat payment per office call would be an acknowledgement of my time.
There should be a reasonable limit of one hour in normal traffic for the commute each way though. Basing it on time would encourage companies to be flexible on start/end times to avoid needing to pay for people to sit in traffic, and there should be some kind of high but not crazy limit on commute time.
Yes I should only have to kiss and lick one boot a day each way maximum.
Return to office mandates would be a lot more palatable if we didn’t have to live an hour and a half away in rush hour bumper to bumper traffic because the average person can’t afford to live anywhere near the central business district anymore.
Or if we could take nonexistent public transit.
Or if we could ride a bike or walk without getting run over by a moron in their suv.
We have so many issues I don’t know where to start. Personally I want to RTO. I’m sick of working from home. But with issues like that…fuck…
Why on earth would you want to return to the office? Social vampires exist there.
Because I want to work at work and be home at home. It never stops when I’m working from home because I’m expected to always be on. I find it more efficient to pull up a chair and sit down next to someone going over things line by line. I miss learning through osmosis which is what I call it when you hear people talking about something you’re vaguely aware of but never really saw in real life but maybe read an article on once. So you go and look over their shoulder and learn something new. (Someone on lemmy called me a horrible person because of this once so hopefully you’re not a toxic SOB like average lemming.) Mostly though I just find it like herding cats, trying to get work done when everyone is in a different time zone and may or may not be online…it’s just incoherent. It’s fine to work from home here and there if you have a few hours of technical work that you just need to knock out. But overall I find it much more effective to be in office. IMHO
I like working in the office because I have a way better setup there and don’t have room at home to do the same thing. I also like the mental separation my commute gives between work life and home life (usually, sometimes people piss me off so much I can’t shake it before I get home). That being said the more people who WFH the better. Traffic during Covid was great and the office was never quieter.
Or if we could take nonexistent public transit.
This makes the whole debate so much easier. I work in the train and bike for three minutes. My whole transit is billable and is billed.
If only! My commute is about a half hour and really isn’t that bad all things considered. Any more than that though and I’d be grumpy about it.
Set minimum wage for any in-office position to match the amount required to purchase a house within 15 minutes average transit to the office.
Min 250k salary in Seattle lol.
Yeah. That’s exactly what it should be, and would like up correctly with what C level people have given themselves in pay raises over the past decade.
Seattle should build more walkable neighborhoods with a metro, lol.
Some people just want to watch the world burn. I love it haha
Sometimes the old has to be burned down to prepare the ground for new growth.
I say it, knowing that there’s no possibility of it happening in the current day but, really, it’s the only way that’s fair for both sides and removes most potential discriminatory policies. If a business can’t afford to pay its workers enough to have a decent life, they can’t afford to be in business.
Or reform land and housing so the landlord grifters stop fucking everyone over simply for having their name in a registry of who owns what.
Porque no los dos?
So that’s, what, $1,500,000 per hour?
I’m not sure what area has average cost of houses around $2.8B but, if that’s the cost, sure. That is, of you’re not trying to imply that the “Wage-Price Spiral” exists, despite all evidence contrary.
This is easy: would I be going there daily if I didn’t have to per the employers requirements?
If yes: then it’s my problem not the employer If no: it’s the emplpyer’s problem not mine
The solution is working from home.
Wouldn’t it be nice if all jobs could be done from home?
Second: Workers aren’t grasping the managerial challenges of leading a remote workforce.
I can grasp it pretty well: Shitty managers can't tell if someone's working without watching them, so they're panicking. Managers who can measure their teams output more accurately than asses-in-chairs aren't having a problem.
Spot on. I’m a people manager and I set my expectations on productivity early and give them the freedom to make their own choices as to how and where they spend their time. At the end of the day, if they didn’t get the work done, they’re held accountable for it. Wish my own boss understood this.
Imagine how much more chill everyone on the road would be if they were getting paid to be there.
When I worked in Belgium not only did they pay for your transit costs, they even paid for your car, phone, and lunch. Granted the car and phone were contingent on you having a use for them for your work, but still.
This was nearly 20 years ago.
I work in belgium now. Electronics Engineer
The car is because they don’t pay you shit for actual salary and a car is a huge tax cut (they budget 500 euros per month at my company). However, CoL is lower than America in most places.
They don’t pay your transit costs, some jobs have “meal check” compensation so 8€ per day or so. Not bad. Only some companies give phones. Probably ad many give work phones in America.
Also there is minimal or no pension fund contribution in many/most jobs and the pension system is on the brink of collapse it seems. No Roth IRAs here or anything. Don’t get paid enough to invest in anything. Everything goes into the house here because almost every single house that is affordable to people under 40 has to be stripped and fully renovated.
A lot of those problems are true in the US/Canada as well (maybe more so; eg. pension). But unlike the US/Canada you get compensated for lunch and transit. AND you get a huge amount of time off. That alone is already drastically better than what you get in the US/Canada. Sure, if you make big bucks that’s mostly moot, but most people don’t.
The only reason I own a car is to get to work. Otherwise I’d use public transport and delivery services all the time.
Therefore, 90% of the time I use my car is in service of my job. Getting to the office and coming home from the office. Therefore my commute is entirely based on the fact that I’m going to or from work. Otherwise I wouldn’t be using the car, sitting in traffic.
So yeah, it’s 100% ‘on the clock’ time, even if they want to somehow argue it isn’t. Even if I wanted a car for things like grocery shopping or getting elsewhere in the city, the time spent in traffic going to or from work and the west and tear on the vehicle during that time is because of my job, therefore my job should pay for my time and the vehicle maintenance. Period.
In general, bosses want white collar workers to work 24/7 — at home, on the train, in the car, etc. etc. It’s ridiculous. Push to keep your work and home life separate. And if your boss expects you to work on your commute, count those hours towards your “40 a week”.
I actually wouldn’t mind counting the commute towards my workday if we had reliable public transit with secure wifi around here. I could get set up, go through emails, square my head for the workday, etc. on the way in and wind down, answer emails, finish up small tasks on the way back. All while actually committing 8 hours a day to my employer rather than 8 plus commute time. Could allow more flexibility for folks living further away from their office as well.
I feel like the argument against is always going to be the same though. Work outside the office isn’t Real Work because Real Work can only happen in a cubicle under surveillance. It’s the same reason they don’t want us to work from home
When they forced me back into the office I didn’t ask permission, I’m just subtracting the hours I commute from my workday. Nobody I work with is in the office I go to so I just poke the mouse every 15min and tether my personal laptop to my phone for the first couple of hours while I decompress from the hour commute. Nobody ever comes by my cube, I’m just in a depressing beige box all day hating the company that’s making me be there.
I used to like my job and go out of my way to find and solve problems. Sometimes I’d work at night if there was something interesting I’d found. Now I’m never ever online after I get home and I’m doing enough to not get fired.
The Bobs know what you’re talkin about.
I want to make a ‘give my back my god damn stapler or I’ll burn the building down’ joke, but it’s a highrise and I don’t want to be on some FBI list or something.
On the EU, it is legally part of the work day, thought not many act on it. EU Supreme Court already ruled it as so.
That ruling is limited. It only applies for jobs where there is no local job site, e.g. construction workers who have changing construction sites.
If you work in an office or factory, or if your work is limited to a certain region (e.g. you clean houses in an area), then commuting to the office/factory/region is not part of the work day.
Otherwise you would get weird situations where people could apply to distant jobs and the employer having to pay those costs and hours. Get a job with a 2 hour one-way commute and you would then only need to work 4 hours… obviously not going to work.
Many employers in Europe actually do pay for some or all commute costs in order to attract workers, but usually they don’t pay for the commute hours.
Otherwise you would get weird situations where people could apply to distant jobs and the employer having to pay those costs and hours. Get a job with a 2 hour one-way commute and you would then only need to work 4 hours… obviously not going to work.
From an employee perspective, that’s not much of a problem but the solution is hardly complicated either. Wouldn’t employers just not hire people who live too far from the work site?
Our union has refused to push the company on this. They said it is an eu directive not a law.
In the UK it’s pretty clearly spelled out (although not always perfectly applied, I’m sure there’s still the odd boss trying it on).
Your working day starts when you arrive at your contracted place of work, and are ready to start work. Not when you walk in the door, before having a cuppa or breakfast in the office kitchen. Not after your computer has booted up and is ready for you.
If you have multiple places of work, or are travelling away from your contracted place of work, then your working day starts the moment you walk out your door and leave home.
The end of the day is the same, if you’re in the office it ends and then you leave, if you’re working away it ends when you get home (so factor in travel time and leave site before then).
Whether or not you actually get paid for every hour is another matter, however. Salary vs hourly work. If you’re salaried it’s supposed to be give and take - however it’s ultimately up to you to take what you can to balance it out. Work isn’t going to offer you an early finish, not as easily as they’ll ask you to stay late.
This may be factual law but just because a holy Law book says something that does not make it true.
The way i understand and perceive my job is as a basic equation for trade. I give, my time, body and energy and in return i receive a monthly paid liveable wage and some additional perks.
When i feel my return doesn’t match my input i have no reason to keep working. Many of my collogues have the benefit of a position that allowed full time WFH, mine simply does not it absolutely counts towards the investment i have to put in to do my work.
But to nuance my own perspective, i also not complaining for not being paid those hours because i don’t recognize that i am being paid in hours. My contract may state i am paid per hour but paper is imaginary. Reality is that i get a monthly deposit. And if its enough to get by, stay healthy and have a little extra, then i am content human being and worker.
My workplace tracks hours for salaried workers, and we’re not allowed to accrue more than about a week of excess time without taking it, to the point where of we go over, our managers must put us on leave until the balance is below the limit
People find it pretty easy to take a day here and there, especially Fridays (it’s like no one believes people do anything productive on Fridays)
Your working day starts when you arrive at your contracted place of work, and are ready to start work. Not when you walk in the door, before having a cuppa or breakfast in the office kitchen. Not after your computer has booted up and is ready for you.
Kind of. The “ready to start work” bit is important. If your workplace has requirements that take extra time - such as a long walk from the front door to your desk, a computer that must go through a five-minute bootup process, a queue at the security gate, etc - those must be covered by the employer. But, yeah, arriving to work and having a panini in the kitchen isn’t going to net you thirty minutes of flexi.
When I did WFH my boss insisted that because I didn’t have to commute I should have all my tools up before my shift even starts.
I didn’t last very long.
Any kind of work, should be after you clock in. Getting equipment, tools, software started etc. is work. Companies trying to deny that should be reported.
I contacted the same lawyer that died them before and he said it wasn’t enough this time. So I just quit.
Pre-shift prep time is paid. At my last shift job, we were expected to be there and ready before the shift started, but we also got paid for that time.
Sounds like it could be a potential $578 billion wage theft problem.
(I know, it’s neither really)
Do I have to perform the commute to be employed at Job X? If so, sure as hell sounds like a part of Job X to me.
Bosses: No, it’s not.
Workers: Yes, it is.
If you want a full summary of the article you need to follow that by:
Author: But don’t forget how hard six figured middle managers have it now that the only way they have to motivate employees is rewarding them with money for work accomplished.
Government: I hope they don't look at me.
Well…It wasn’t part of my work day, but I came on as a remote employee. Now that they are telling me that I need to come in 3 days a week with no comp increase, you can bet your butt that I will be counting that commute as part of my work day.
On the one hand, as a worker, I absolutely think it should be considered part of the work day, HOWEVER, there’s so many factors that go into what constitutes your commute, that I’m not sure how businesses would account for that. Is it based on distance, so the farther away you live, the more compensation you get, just because you live further away? That seems to unfairly reward people people who live farther away. Do you just give a blanket extra 1 hr (30 min before/after the work day) to everyone to account for it, assuming that that covers most cases?
It does seem to be a standard for most businesses that travel, you’re paying for their time just to come out. I’ve had plenty of plumbers/handymen/house fixerish people who have charged just for gracing me with their presence for <10 min, even though they didn’t actually do any work, there’s usually a ~$50–100 minimum charge for house calls. I’m assuming their travel time is getting factored into it, so why shouldn’t other workers travel time be factored in as well?
Am commercial HVAC mechanic. My clock starts when I get to the shop, grab stuff, then start travelling, or when I get to site if I start there, then ends when I leave my last call for the day.
I can spend anywhere between 10-12 hrs a day not being at home due to traffic, and get paid for 8.
But I see your idea of having a standard 1 hr in and 1 hr out as a compromise and it’s up to you how close or far you live to your work location or bubble. For me, I live within my work bubble, and can work anywhere in the region depending on the day. Could be anywehere between 10 minutes, and 2 hours.
Seems like the most straightforward way to account for commute would be to average the commute times of all employees at a workplace and pay accordingly. If a business doesn’t want to pay that, they can set up a work-from-home situation.
It’s crystal clear that commuting is not part of the work day, but perhaps it should be.
Just like we should only work 6 hours so we can actually have some time after to do things we want, like hobbies or just enjoying time with friends.
If I didn’t choose to do it, its part of the work day.
If you need to do something for work that you would not otherwise do it’s part of the job and should be compensated. At least that has been my attitude with any company trips or events and going to the office.
In the meantime time simply steal your commute time back.
(This is a joke)*
I always did
Wow, that’s cool! I’ve fallen in to a wormhole and ended up on Hexbear!
What?
Nah, Hexbear would defend employers screwing over their employees as long as the government claimed to be Marxist. They would only talk about this in a negative light as long as the problem happens in a liberal democracy.
This is why I refuse hybrid or on location working as an office worker: I'm not getting paid for the commute. Fuck that. (Of course, it's also a waste of time to be in the office as it's impossible to concentrate, when you have some sales people loudly talking into their phones right opposite you as you're trying to get some though work done)
I would propose a $1.50 decrease in the minimum wage IF it was coupled with a pay for commute law. I would go down by $3 an hour if it also had a half pay for “on call” hours amendment.
Not a popular opinion, and it does suck, but I do think we should strive to sponsor mileage of any kind as little as possible and that includes employers paying for commute, to incentivise wirking closer to your home or relocating closer to your work
Lots of bickering about how it works now vs how it should work. Meanwhile I’m going crazy that nobody is pointing out how much of the burden of the commute is placed on the worker. It’s literally thousands of dollars a year in being licensed to drive, vehicle registration, insurance costs, variable and ever increasing gas prices, repair and maintenance. Every single aspect of the commute is a burden on the worker, and corporations take it for granted. It’s not factored into most people’s pay rate or compensation. Whether or not the employer should be held responsible for relieving some of the burden, we should recognize that workers need to lessen this burden one way or another. Increasing tax deductibles to include commute time isn’t an unreasonable first step. Treat it just like travel for any other work related reason.
justhach@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I used to work for a company that had the right idea. Qe brought our work trucks home, and our work day started when we turned the key, and ended when we got home.
Had to be at a job for 8 and it was an hour away? You were paid for that. Only had a job 5 minutes away? Enjoy the extra sleep in time and the short commute home.
Now, this is way different than an office job that is stationary, but there is definitely a conversation to be had about it. If nothing else, it may have more companies going back to taking WFH seriously again instead of needlesslt forcing people back into occife spaces in order to prop up the commercial real estate sector.
The_v@lemmy.world 1 year ago
When I had a 1hr commute through heavy city traffic, I needed a break when I walked in the door. It took me at least an hour to get up the energy to do anything. Most of the time I would sip coffee while pretending to read e-mails or talk to coworkers. My body might be there but I wasn’t doing anything. So the company was paying for my recovery time from the “work” of the commute.
I don’t know why any company would push an employee into a long commute if it’s not necessary. It costs the company a ton of money in productivity.
It’s the problem with companies focusing on time spent, not productivity. I can waste a ton of time and get nothing done if I am so inclined.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world 1 year ago
I mean, they aren’t. Unless you are dealing with something like being a housekeeper for a rich neighborhood, most bosses would love it if you lived within 30 minutes of the office.
But the reality of the housing problem is that you MIGHT be able to afford an apartment near the office. But if you want to “put down roots”, you are living on the outskirts of town. And if you look at something like the insanity that is The Bay Area, “the outskirts of town” seems to move by 10-100 miles every few years.
And… it is real shitty, but that is part of the push for hybrid schedules. If you live three hours away from the office then nobody will ever want to call you in. But… sometimes they can’t help it. And now they have the mess of “Well, The V lives 3 hours away so do we have to pay them? We don’t pay Susie who lives 30 minutes away and it isn’t fair to her that she has to spend an extra five hours a day in the office… But we also can’t give The V what is effectively a day off every time they have an in person meeting…” So the “hope” is that people will… sell their houses and go back to getting exploited by a slum lord?
EditsHisComments@lemmy.world 1 year ago
In many Labor Economic Models, the distinction in Time is measured as Time spent working vs Time spent not working, in which the commute is factored. Many companies deal with people’s reluctance to commute by offering better pay or better benefits (if they’re seeking specific skillsets that are more difficult to find close by), but sometimes you find a gem like your company.
I know it would be difficult to implement for many companies, but I wish more companies did something like that when they could. The company I work for doesn’t pay for commutes from home, but will pay for them if you are temporarily relocated to a different office by calculating the distance between the two offices and average fuel price
The_v@lemmy.world 1 year ago
From what understand that is following the U.S. tax code. The commute from your home to your assigned work location is considered the employees responsibility. If they are temporarily assigned to another location further away, the difference in mileage is considered a business expense. In some states they are required to pay the employee. In others it’s an allowable wage theft, the company claims the mileage and doesn’t reimburse the employee.
I drive a work vehicle. I have to declare how many personal miles I used the vehicle for yearly. Personal miles are all non-company related miles and the commute to my primary office. This benefit is considered income and taxed.
Currently my primary office is my home so 95% of my miles are business. At my last job they assigned my primary office to one 20 miles away (even though I was only there 1 day every 2 weeks). As such 20% of my miles were personal. A real dick move in my opinion but perfectly legal.