How do people in this day in age become nazis/neonazies sexist or even incels when there is so much knowledge against it? Do they get anything out of being that way?

Comments

• GBU_28@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Feeling like a victim has a certain… Freedom.

  These folks hunt for a bogeyman that “suits” the ills of their life, then apply the hateful stereotypes.

  For the incel example: if they are a failure to launch and also can’t get a girlfriend…

  1. There’s some social order conspiracy + a genetic lottery they lost. It’s not their fault they aren’t desirable, everything was stacked against them. Their enemy (super chads and stupid Stacys) deserve hate because they overlook the incel and keep them down

  2. They never developed social skills, are disrespectful and only see women as sex objects/possessions. If they cultivated some hard work, maturity, and respect for others, they would be much happier with life, and likely find a partner.

  The first option is way easier… Just blame everyone else!

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  • Don_Dickle@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Before incel was a thing and way before Andrew Tate…I thought my brother was an introvert. Because he could not get a gf in High School. Like me I just thought wait until he gets out and he will get one. Then I learned about incels this was about the time I heard Andrew Tate come on the seen. When my brother turn 21 I told him we are going to a bar and I am getting you drunk for the first time. Well we also smoked his first joint before hand and then went in. I was the sober driver and kept ordering cranberry juice. All the while I kept ordering him shot and buckets of beers and everything. I will never forget this put his head on the counter and I thought he passed out. But I shook him and he jumped to and started dancing on the dance floor and everything. I was like WTF. He then started hitting on girls/women and getting their phone numbers. He even got one to blow him in the bathroom. He came back to me totally messed up and told him we got to leave and we left. Well I almost had to drag him out to the car because he wanted more numbers. Long story a little bit longer I and I am probably wrong that incels need to get drunk or high and become more motivated like my brother was.

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  • mke_geek@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    It’s easier on someone’s ego to blame someone or something else rather than admit they have faults.

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    • GBU_28@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Well put

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• Lumelore@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  As a young person who grew up on the internet, with no parental oversight, I can say it’s because there is a lot of right wing bullshit online that media companies love to push on their users. When I was a tween I got suckered into it hard when one day youtube decided to put mgtow videos in my recommended feed. I never initially searched for them. I did eventually get out of it, and I’m not entirely sure how, but I remember as a 13yo seeing trump in 2016 bully that disabled reporter and it really put a sour taste in my mouth. And then over the next few years that led to me leaving catholicism, becoming a socialist, and realizing I’m transgender and very gay.

  With me being transgender and pan, that adds another aspect to it, because I think I knew subconsciously that I was queer as a tween, but growing up in an environment where I was repeatedly told those things were wrong led to me feeling absolutely miserable about myself, and misery loves company. And this also makes me wonder how many nazis are queer and don’t even realize it or refuse to recognize it.

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• tiefling@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  The people who claim that women are too emotional to be leaders, are themselves too emotional to make rational life decisions

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  • Don_Dickle@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I maybe wrong in this but has any world leader that is a woman ever gone to war?

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    • Overshoot2648@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      In modern times? IDK, but historically female leaders tended to engage in more war as a way to legitimize their rule, whether instigator or not. Kosem Sultan, Queen Isabella of Spain, and Catherine de’ Medici to name a few, but to quote a Quartz article:

      “In fact, between 1480 and 1913, Europe’s queens were 27% more likely than its kings to wage war, according to a National Bureau of Economics … And like Isabella, queens were also more likely to amass new territory during their reigns, found the paper’s authors, economists Oeindrila Dube and S.P. Harish.”

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    • DinosaurSr@programming.dev ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      This got me curious. forbes.com/…/sheryl-sandberg-says-female-leaders-…

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• orcrist@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It’s surprisingly easy to teach racism and sexism. Parents do it all the time very effectively. Not long after MLK was killed there was a classroom experiment done, which was later made into a documentary called Blue Eyes Brown Eyes. The whole documentary is an hour long, but I think even watching a shorter 5 minute clip from it will show you just how quickly kids pick up on bad behavior when authority figures feed it to them.

  And there are so many other good answers that other people have already written. It’s really neat to learn from so many perspectives.

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• KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  fascist power structures, provide power to people who follow them, and people like power. Power speaks.

  This is why literally every government in the world including the US is susceptible to fascism.

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• ClassifiedPancake@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Blaming others for things going wrong doesn’t require thinking and being self reflecting.

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• A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Don’t underestimate how much resentment and anger a privileged people can develop when they don’t get every. single. thing. they think they are entitled to.

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• BaumGeist@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  That’s a very complex question with many, many answers. No individual life can be boiled down to a single phenomenon. A lot of the answers I’m seeing in here are great, ans definitely describe a phenomenon at play, but it’s important to remember that nobody’s just outright stupid enough to fall for a single piece of rhetoric. Instead, them coming into bigotry is the result of a complex web of ideas that brought them to that conclusion.

  That being said, I’ll add my two cents that I don’t see anyone saying: privilege. Privilege insulates people from how cold and cruel the world can be; in doing so, they don’t learn the comraderie that grows out of shared hardship (aka empathy). They see others experiencing it, and assume they are weak, both for “allowing themselves” to fall into hardship, as well as for “getting conned” by others who have fallen on hardship. This too adds fuel to the fire that is all the other reasons people get pulled into hateful ideologies.

  Imagine being excluded from some perceived secret club based on conditions you didn’t have a choice in, and seeing women or bipoc or lgbt or the working class supporting each other. You too would feel resentment towards those who won’t include you in their circles. Yet you never developed the proper understanding of the ties that bind them, so you only see it as hate towards you and your demographic; this then becomes a feedback loop: your hate hurts thode communities, making them even more interdependent on each other, making you more resentful and frustrated.

  You fall in with people you don’t really like because of a shared disdain for The Others, and then, because that’s your only lived experience, assume all identity-based comraderie is necessarily just a loose collective of people that only get along because of a common enemy. This reinforces your belief that The Others hate you, only adding fuel to the fire of your own hate.

  This is also why these people are so easily manipulated: all you have to do is control their perception of who hates them, and they’ll do whatever you say to make it stop. This is why politics and religion are such great examples, and no “side” is immune. Want to make a leftist out of a fascist? Convince them that The Jews are actually just the bourgeoisie, who must be killed for the good of ourselves and our nation. An anarchist who fears authoritarians will readily agree to being a part of an exclusive coalition of individuals that determines the way society is structured, so, y’know, the authoritarians don’t get their way.

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• feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You become an incel by not getting laid.

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  • klisurovi4@midwest.social ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    That plus being an ass in general I’d say. I’m 25, haven’t ever gotten laid and struggle with loneliness all the time, but still don’t think all women are sluts and are obligated to fuck me.

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    • feedum_sneedson@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      You’re right inasmuch as the meaning shifted to include all the misogyny etc. I still have sympathy for people who can’t get laid.

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  • SeattleRain@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yeah, being an incel isn’t an ideology. It’s a material condition.

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• Thorny_Insight@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Incel = involuntary celibate

  You become one by not being able to find a life partner or even a one night stand. Not something I’d really blame the individual for.

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  • Don_Dickle@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    While I think incel’s maybe everywhere is there not some online hookups or at least prostitues that can pacify them?

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    • Thorny_Insight@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Possibly yes but that doesn’t help if one is morbidly afraid of approaching women for example.

      However my point was that it’s a bit pointless to ask why would someone become something when by definition it’s involuntary. It’s like asking why would anyone be under 6ft tall.

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• Okokimup@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Here’s a great Ted talk from a guy who got pulled into the neo-nazis and got out.

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• spacecadet@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Disenfranchisement is a hell of a drug. A lot don’t believe in the ideology at first, but are forced into it because they lacked proper role models when they were young.

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  • Don_Dickle@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Good use of the D word haven’t heard or read it in a while…no sarcasm

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• Fedizen@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Many of these people overreact to good faith criticism and are narcissistic. There are some statistics that people become less self centered as they get older and incels definitely fall into that trap.

  As for nazis etc, lots of that comes from like a lack of critical thinking about conspiracy theories.

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• Mwa@thelemmy.club ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Prob bcs they believe in conspiracy theories or watch and use and engage in sites that show this info

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  • Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Why the link to conspiracy theories?

    Why would knowledge of MKUltra or the Iran–Contra turn someone right wing?

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    • Jakeroxs@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I would imagine it gives you the taste of “everyone is lying to you” and then latch on to… Other people still lying to you, but it’s just randoms online, they’d never lie like govt or the MSM.

      It’s easy to fall into if you don’t have the critical thinking skills to sift through what is/isn’t bullshit.

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    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I’ve seen more than a few people assert “horseshoe theory” on this subject. Since the Far Left and the Far Right are the same, they turn you right by sending you left.

      Anti-Americanism makes you a Trump supporter or Xi supporter or whatever. And these fucked secret programs from the 60s and 70s make you anti-American. Ergo…

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    • Mwa@thelemmy.club ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Bcs before I would see them believing in conspiracy theories most of them where in Instagram

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• istanbullu@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Incels are the easiest to understand. Some people are just unattractive.

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  • Daxtron2@startrek.website ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Nah there’s plenty of unattractive people in relationships that aren’t total assholes.

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  • Smoogs@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    look at the original poster boy of incel: Roger Elliot. he was physically attractive, well groomed, from decent money, clearly looked after himself but was one of the most unattractive personalities and complained he was constantly rejected.

    You can still be well groomed and the biggest incel. that’s often their complaint against women. They are relying on getting by on looks alone and then complain about getting nothing because they overlooked women are deeper than that. They don’t wanna work on themselves. Easier to blame the women or society or feminism etc.

    There are plenty of men who don’t even have half the physical attractiveness of Roger Elliot and far more well adjusted.

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  • Crikeste@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I guess maybe you could consider people’s personalities ‘unattractive’, but your phrasing comes across as abrasive at best in a NoStupidQuestions thread.

    Going off your comment at face value: there are plenty of attractive people who are lonely. It could be due to all sorts of different factors. Things right now are pretty tough; mentally, physically and economically. A lot of people are struggling. And for men, that can manifest in things women see as ‘red flags’. And that only furthers the isolationism, which begins to fester and cause hateful feelings.

    Because yeah, some of it is genuinely out of people’s hands.

    I don’t feel like THAT is hard to understand at all.

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• olafurp@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  If you want something to be true and feel as if it’s true then you’re likely to believe it’s true.

  Facts usually don’t change people’s mind and might make them defensive about their views because if they’re wrong it will hurt them personally in the ego and self esteem.

  I can fully see how something like feeling superior can fit into that. This includes others being inferior as a corollary.

  Then you mix in anger. You are angry and stressed about the current situation and then somebody that speaks well and is smarter than you in your opinion says “blame immigrants”.

  This fits in the world view.

  Then you can go online and see other people and they say “Nazis didn’t have this problem because they fixed it”. So you in your newfound and knowledge go out and tell people unapologetically and if anybody inferior, that makes you angry, says anything bad things can happen.

  There’s a path to become a Nazi. I think people don’t intend to be bad, they care about people, Nazis don’t think everyone should count as people. It’s societal cancer.

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• militaryintelligence@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I overheard my kids talking about whites being replaced, and saying the big N word. YouTube and the internet in general is a great recruitment tool. Yes, I talked to them.

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• Zozano@lemy.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I know some people are born into these mindsets. I know what it’s like to have been raised by a bigot; indoctrinated thoughts are the hardest to change.

  I am convinced a large part of the problem is some people prefer convenient answers which make immediate sense, as opposed to nuanced truths.

  Could it be that racism creates conditions which lead to a higher frequency of situations which will reinforce racist stereotypes? Too much thinking involved, it makes more sense that the blacks are inherently different.

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  • Don_Dickle@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You should do an AMA it would be nice to hear about your exp growing up like that and how you changed your life.

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    • Zozano@lemy.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Unfortunately my experience is nothing short of common. Our current generation is the most tolerant in history, so naturally our parents will hold bigoted opinions.

      If you want to hear a fascinating story, listen to Megan, who left the “God hates fags” church, and now tries to explain indoctrination.

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  • octopus_ink@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Could it be that racism creates conditions which lead to a higher frequency of situations which will reinforce racist stereotypes? Too much thinking involved, it makes more sense that the blacks are inherently different.

    I have struggled to communicate what you said in your first sentence in less than paragraphs several times and failed. Thank you for giving me an example of how to say it succinctly. Let’s hope I can remember/replicate that the next time I try to get the concept across to someone.

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• cyborganism@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Remember that racial segregation in the US wasn’t that long ago, historically speaking.

  Some of children who lived through that era were raised with racism and these values were passed to their children who became Gen X and Y.

  Religion also had a bigger influence in the previous generations. Homophobia and transphobia was normalized and you could even be arrested for being any of LGBTQ up until very recently and it’s still the case in some regions.

  Nazi ideology never really left either. And the way this ideology came to be was through disenfranchised people who were angry and needed someone to be angry against. Someone came at the right place at the right time and gave these people a scapegoat.

  Fascism is kind of the same but with a cult of personality.

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• lordnikon@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It’s engineered into society by power people. if you are too busy looking down on someone. You won’t notice them robbing you blind.

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  • Forester@yiffit.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Use the full quote

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    • the_post_of_tom_joad@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I’ll tell you what’s at the bottom of it. If you can convince the lowest white man he’s better than the best colored man, he won’t notice you’re picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he’ll empty his pockets for you.

      -Lyndon B. Johnson

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  • shalafi@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    engineered into society by power people

    C’mon man! That’s conspiracy thinking if I ever heard it. The truth is far simpler, and worse, people are people just being people. And that’s a lot of people trying to navigate a wildly complex world we didn’t evolve for. We almost have to boil our experiences down into more digestible chunks to make sense of it.

    This article is so old that the formatting’s been trashed, but I think you can parse the order of the text with a little effort. Few things I’ve ever read gave me a wider view of the world. It was so important to my I saved a PDF a few years back. If you don’t like the humor, fuck it, the message is there.

    cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html

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    • lordnikon@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      you are correct that I was a little lazy in not clarifying my statement and I can see that coming off as a Them conspiracy theory mind set but the powers at be that I’m talking about are NAM and people long dead now like birch and pew.

      Also NAMs role in the Taft hartley act that hurt unionisation in America that we feel today. and how NAM with the help of James Fifield warped churches across America as a response to The New Deal and FDR and fearing churches being a source of socialist thinking in the US.

      If you follow this movement you will find people you know like Billy Gram and Ronald Reagan. Just look up the Spiritual Mobilization

      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft–Hartley_Act

      en.wikipedia.org/…/National_Association_of_Manufa…

      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_W._Fifield_Jr.

      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

      en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Pew_Jr.

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• jj4211@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It’s not a matter of knowledge, it’s a matter of what they want.

  One may desire to be advantaged/superior to some others, and particularly nice and easy if race or gender is a convenient shorthand for knowing who is ‘in’ and ‘out’, as long as you are in the ‘in’ group of course.

  So life is just plain easier if women are just supposed to sit there and please them. If the ‘natural order’ justifies that convenience, then one may be attracted to that thought. To the extent fairness and equality makes their life harder, they are inclined to be upset at that obstackle. It’s convenient if the legal and labor world gives their race preferential treatment, and other groups are left desperate enough to do whatever they need done but don’t want to do, and scared enough of the government to not get “uppity”.

  Sometimes overt evil, sometimes more subconscious manifesting as being very receptive to narratives that correlate with those feelings.

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• WhyFlip@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Incel isn’t something that you become.

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  • Cracks_InTheWalls@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    It’s a term that’s taken on some additional baggage/meaning. Originally it simply meant someone who was involuntarily celibate - wants to have sexual relationships, but doesn’t. Now it usually refers to someone adhering to a kind of peculiar set of ideologies around that (see: social value theories taken to some often ridiculous extremes; good ol’ fashioned misogyny/perhaps misanthropy; etc.).

    There’s a kneejerk reaction to incels in the latter sense because so much that comes out of that is pretty awful. That and it’s often folks who engage with the latter stuff who are more inclined to identify with the term incel - most others who just fit the former definition just say they’re single.

    IMO the latter usage is just more proof that we are failing and continuing to fail men, badly, in terms of community and mental health supports.

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    • WhyFlip@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Well said and agree.

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  • constantturtleaction@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This sounds like something an incel would say.

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    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I mean, involuntary anything isn’t really a choice. It’s right there in the name.

      But the original self-professed incel was a woman, complaining that she was “unfuckable”. The term now tends to describe mostly men who feel fury at some social system that prevents them from caging a TradWife into their house, rather than the 00s era college NEET who just feels like their youth is being wasted because they aren’t getting laid.

      The cliquishness might be a choice, but the condition certainly isn’t.

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• yemmly@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  The examined life with all its critical thinking and guarding against bias is hard. The dark side is easier.

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• NutWrench@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I grew up watching WW2 movies and the Nazis were never shown as being anything other than Bad Guys. I would love to know how anyone grows up here in the U.S. and doesn’t know that.

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  • Crikeste@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Image

    This was taken in Madison Square Garden in 1939.

    Henry Ford was given the Grand Cross of The German Eagle by Hitler.

    Americans were far more Nazi than history books might have you believe.

    Hell, Hitler called America’s genocide of the natives “the first great cleansing”. It was the model.

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  • MellowYellow13@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    for starters they dont even know they are Nazis

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    • John_McMurray@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Well they ain’t. A Nazi is a specific economic and cultural philosophy/movement of a certain time and place. Anti immigration conservatives, even very racist misogynists aren’t usually nazis no matter how often people call that.

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  • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    To see Nazis being presented as the good guys just turn on the DNC stream.

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• blarth@thelemmy.club ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Well, you see, it all started with Steve Bannon playing World of Warcraft…

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• yesman@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  The Internet is like a library: repository of knowledge, it’s also like cable TV where every crackpot has a broadcast license.

  How you use it is up to you.

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• PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  If you remember the post trump election memes about economic anxiety being mediaspeak for racism, this is basically where that came from.

  Bigotry is a despair response, when the promises of normalcy fail someone, there’s a chance for them to start looking for new meaning to understand a seemingly indifferent world, and in that state of mind, being told you’re part of an exclusive club of inherent superiority is the ego stroke that gets them off.

  From the moment they take that poison pill it basically plays out as an analogue of addiction. Even as they watch the sludge they’re mainlining destroy everything around them it doesn’t cut them off from, they just can’t stop, because the validation of feeling that it’s the entire world that’s wrong instead of just you being shit out of luck is too much for a lot of folks to be willing to part with.

  It also doesn’t help that these people tend to get fired from jobs that don’t put up with racist bullshit, turning the whole validation needing into a vicious cycle sort of deal.

  This is also why some very stupid self described leftists seem to have zero worry about the rise of fascism (even as they insist that they’re the only ones who truly take it seriously as a threat), they think “just do a socialism bro” will instantly fix everything as if economic hardship would never happen to a socialist society even within a vacuum.

  They literally think you can just pay the racists to stop being racists, and that you can pay a heroin addict to stop shooting up.

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  • octopus_ink@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This is also why some very stupid self described leftists seem to have zero worry about the rise of fascism (even as they insist that they’re the only ones who truly take it seriously as a threat), they think “just do a socialism bro” will instantly fix everything as if economic hardship would never happen to a socialist society even within a vacuum.

    I have to admit - I’m having a hard time picturing how this would be expressed. Any particular examples you can point to?

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    • PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      All the “don’t vote” leftists that think democrats not voting Bernie is less forgiveable that the Republicans closing abortion clinics and kicking gay kids out onto the streets.

      They think perceived direct opposition to socialism is worse than something they believe will just magically go away once they finish bribing the racists to not be racist.

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• B312@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Echo chambers which most social media apps and websites really love to create

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• Teppichbrand@feddit.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Low on Kohlberg

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  • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This was very interesting. Thanks

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• Linkerbaan@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  People just want an easy scapegoat, and there are many parties willing to sell them one.

  Knowledge against racism has existed for millennia. Time is a flat circle.

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