They get a community that supports and enables then out of it.
How do people in this day in age become nazis/neonazies sexist or even incels when there is so much knowledge against it? Do they get anything out of being that way?
Submitted 2 months ago by Don_Dickle@lemmy.world to [deleted]
Comments
Moah@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 months ago
BaldManGoomba@lemmy.world 2 months ago
This youtube series is a great way to show how someone gets inundated and can turn youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANn…
But here is somethings I noticed from my journey out of the right wing from my high school days.
First we were religious and we choose good decisions and other people’s choices were unwise and their fault but even though we lived in the same projects, our choices and how we lived their was unfortunate and their’s was their fault. It wasn’t explicit racism it was culture of racism. We were scared because we didn’t understand and thought we were superior since we were trying. Then we got better off and were in church more we got inundated with right wing propaganda on the economy and Frieman econmics blaming the government and socialism. We wanted to protect our jobs and our jobs blamed the government why they had to end manufacturing jobs in America. I graduated high school in 2010. I saw hatred towards Obama and noticed my side was with the KKK and I questioned it. That is how I got out. But if I kept to my beliefs I would have hated black people and others more. Thinking I was superior as a WASP (White Anglo Saxon protestant) since I made good decisions. My parents told me I could work through college and buy a house and everything and not to take out debt. So I tried that. It was impossible.
I blamed myself for not being good enough but I also didn’t do it right because I was testing it out and not using and abusing my connections. Which is how you get ahead. When I figured out I wasn’t enough and started to work with the people I know I was able to do more. But I could have blamed DEI stuff why I couldn’t get into college or get better jobs. But it was I just wasn’t good enough and the market is barren in Delaware.
My few relationships break ups I could have blamed it all on women and got a negative attitude with that too. Also since I was raised in the church a bit I could have said they should be a trad wife. But bleh
Back to being a Wasp. I could have blamed my failures and society failures on racist things or the color of my skin but I was lucky to realize it was the rich who fucked us all and the governments fault for letting it happen.
drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world 2 months ago
For incels there really is no other community for them. Hell, even if you are liberal there are not many mens spaces for you.
Don_Dickle@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Ok you got me intrigued so what would be a men’s space?
drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Any kind of liberal space for men to talk about our issues. Reddit has a community that likes to pretend that is what it is. But it’s more focused on how horrible men are to women
Facebones@reddthat.com 2 months ago
I’m just a few drinks in spitballing, but I’d argue a pro mental health men’s group would be valid, men dont have a lot of “unique” issues (that I can think of) but the demonization of MH would definitely be one IMO.
Aceticon@lemmy.world 2 months ago
People don’t actually guide themselves by Logic.
In fact they undermine their own logical thinking abilities, especially by seeking only that information which confirms that which they already believe in (because it makes them feel to good to “be right”) and avoid or deny that information which disproves that which they believe in (because it makes them feel bad to “be wrong”).
Even very intelligent people will reach the dumbest of conclusions because of how their own emotions control the inputs to their thinking, the kind of things they think about and even which conclusions they immediately accept without challenge and which they actively try and disprove.
Also add to this that only a small number of people are familiar with the practices of Analytical Thinking (such as used in Science) so are prone to falling for all manner of fallacies and observer cognitive errors (stuff like how one spots mostly that which happens, not the absence of things that should be happening, how others react to one’s own non-verbal cues and shape their responses to one’s expectations and other such things affecting what one observes and which led to things like Science have double-blind experiments).
Don_Dickle@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Its weird that you mention a need to be right. As a nurse we are taught to question everything and anything but when it comes to doctors we are suppose to keep our mouth shut. I took a semester on drug abuse and signs as an elective and you would be surprised on how many doctors who operate or diagnose patient look and act or exhbit the behavior of a drug addict.
Aceticon@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Yeah, that’s the thing: the things commonly associated with logic and careful thinking such as Formal Education (even in STEM domains) or Intelligence are no defense against one’s emotional needs, wants and fears.
As I’ve said more than once: no matter how Intelligent a person is, their Subconscious is just as Intelligent and hence just as capable of subverting the their Conscious mind.
lvxferre@mander.xyz 2 months ago
Access to knowledge doesn’t imply successful retrieval of said knowledge. And a lot of the thing isn’t about knowledge, but moral premises - things that are neither true nor false, but that you consider good or bad, and as others said here emotions and self-interest play a huge role on the later.
Don_Dickle@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Yea but isn’t knowledge a tool for understanding good or bad. If something someone tells me is bad or whatever I go and look it up read about it so I can have a discussion with them and understand their point of view. Am I wrong in doing so?
lvxferre@mander.xyz 2 months ago
Not quite - knowledge alone is not enough to label something as good or bad. Because good/bad aren’t attributes of that thing, they’re only your attitude towards it.
That’s important here because it’s perfectly possible that a bigot knows that what other bigots use to justify their bigotry (like frenology etc.) is false, but still says “nah, screw them, I’m defending my own group at their expense”. And that person would be still a bigot and should be treated as one.
douglasg14b@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Incels at least is a natural consequence of the difference between society’s expectations, the needs of an individual, generally the lack of support and or direct toxicity towards men who need help and emotional support
Don_Dickle@lemmy.world 2 months ago
You make it sound like incels become incels because they weren’t loved enough during childhood.
LiamMayfair@lemmy.sdf.org 2 months ago
Being an unloved —or worse, abused— child is quite often the root cause of a vast number of affective and personality disorders people develop later on as an adult.
lightnsfw@reddthat.com 2 months ago
That’s what put me on track to that mindset back when I was in school. I was short and shy and a little weird so I was bullied constantly and girls wouldn’t even talk to me. No one ever supported me, not even my “friends”. I felt stuck in that situation and saw no way to change things which led me to be very hateful. Fortunately I got into a different environment when I was in college with kinder people who accepted me and was able to pull out of it. A lot of people are not that lucky or get too deep in the hole to pull themselves out of even if given the chance.
drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Ita was the case for me and others.
saltesc@lemmy.world 2 months ago
A lot of it comes from experiences they’ve had.
HollowNaught@lemmy.world 2 months ago
As someone who’s had several long debates with a neonazi on discord, it usually boils down to them saying “Goldbloom controls you, all your arguments are therefore nullified”
Their aptitude for dismissing information is amazing
thesporkeffect@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Which is why we don’t debate them, and avoid giving them a public platform!
HollowNaught@lemmy.world 2 months ago
After we had our fun with them we banned them. We still laugh about it to this day
paddirn@lemmy.world 2 months ago
“so much knowledge against it”? We live in a n overwhelming ocean of information, what seems obvious to many people may be completely unheard of in other areas, we’re not all getting our information from the same sources. Or some people have become indoctrinated by other groups and have become basically inoculated against “wokeism”. Plato’s allegory of the cave is just as relevant today as it was in his time (if not more so). There are people spending their whole lives looking at shadow puppets dancing on the wall, thinking that that’s reality. Who knows, maybe it’s us, but the point is, even though we’re awash in information, ignorance is alive and well.
Don_Dickle@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Great usage of Plato’s Cave haven’t heard it in a long time. Makes me feel young again…no sarcasm
TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip 2 months ago
Humanity has this default setting where tribalism = TRUE, and social media gives you a place where you can form new tribes around anything and everything all of the time. As a matter of fact, it tends to encourage modern day tribalism.
sumguyonline@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Wiccans name men incels, the name itself, involuntary celibate indicates they are there of some one else’s doing. They do this to ugly men, quiet men, and men they see as a threat. So why do you think they made themselves some thing involuntarily through not having knowledge? Are you trolling, or genuinely confused how the wiccan rape cult has destroyed society? Or are you just looking to attack men you think are less than you? Word matter, so how does a shy or fat guy deserve to be incels for how they look or act? Or do you not care about your victims? This misandrist sexism you’re pushing is tired and out of date, it’s literally what broke society. You need to rethink your entire thesis on society, because you’re deadly wrong, and society is changing with or without YOU.
The wiccan rape cult also finds its roots in Nazism as it came here after the fall of Germany. Men aren’t the problem, but if you feel they are, you’re definitely part of the problem.
SSJMarx@lemm.ee 2 months ago
the wiccan rape cult
I think you might be schizophrenic. Seek help.
loudWaterEnjoyer@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 months ago
BaumGeist@lemmy.ml 2 months ago
If you think not having sex is so terrible it’s basically torture, the problem isn’t that you haven’t had sex. It really isn’t that great, and you need to stop idolizing these things
What you’re actually missing, and misinterpreting as “sex will fix me” is genuine human connection, and that is a skill that takes a loooot of practice, mistakes, heartache, and even at times, being “cringe.”
But it’s easier to think that sex is some magical experience that a secret organization is denying you.
flerp@lemm.ee 2 months ago
There’s a difference between someone who is an incel and someone who would like to, but can’t find someone to have sex with. It’s like how all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. Not all people who can’t find someone to have sex with are incels even if they are technically involuntarily celibate. There is a lot more that goes along with the incel community than JUST involuntary celibacy.
A shy or fat guy who can’t find someone to sleep with might not classify as an incel for example, but someone who thinks like your comment very much does.
Azzu@lemm.ee 2 months ago
Short answer: it’s basic human nature if you don’t specifically work against it. Many people work against it, but not everyone, mostly because of an environment they grew up in that doesn’t do this.
Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 2 months ago
Hating other people is not basic human nature. It’s learned behavior.
Azzu@lemm.ee 2 months ago
I mean the specifics like who you hate, in what way, is learned, but the hate itself is basic. You can’t tell me hate isn’t one of the most basic human emotions.
gedaliyah@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Bigotry has been about ignorance. It has always been about manufacturing social division through propaganda.
FireTower@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Some people have problems in their life and it is convenient to believe they are do to an outgroup. You mention knowledge against it but these people live their lives and insert their instilled prejudices to explain the flaws, making them have (fake) first hand proof of their beliefs.
Don_Dickle@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Ok while I may agree. But my father taught me when I was younger that a black woman has no place in this world so you will have to work extra harder to overcome hate and other things…my question is was he right? I say this as a now 41 year old.
FireTower@lemmy.world 2 months ago
a black woman has no place in this world…
Wrong on this half, in that the factors of your birth & immutable traits or public opinion of those can’t prevent you from have a place here regardless of any opinions.
…you will have to work extra harder to overcome hate and other things…
You would know the answer from you past 41 yrs better than I would.
vorpalMachine@lemmy.world 2 months ago
They are being constantly bombarded with algorithm-fueled targeted media designed to make them feel just good enough about themselves to keep watching the next video of ‘woke woman gets owned on camera and everybody claps’. Source: my childhood friend gets recommended this trash daily on his youtube homepage. I try to push against it without re-enforcing the narrative that The Liberals are the reason why he doesn’t have any friends. I don’t think it’s working.
ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
You’ll find a lot of arguments for believing these things if you look for them. Some of these arguments are simply angry rants (and they appeal to angry people who aren’t inclined to think analytically) but others are quite sophisticated. Have I refuted all the sophisticated ones I’ve come across? No, that would take a lot of effort, and maybe some of them are even technically true. I’m not convinced by them primarily because I have certain assumptions about the world: conspiracy theories are generally not true, most people just want to live a good life, kindness is good, and so forth. Someone who holds the opposite set of assumptions (every organization is corrupt and run by secret manipulators, many people are inherently evil, kindness is foolish, etc.) won’t be convinced by your “knowledge against it” without even hearing you out in the same way that I’m not convinced by the arguments for it.
aredditimmigrant@feddit.nl 2 months ago
It’s the same as it’s always been. We gravitate towards what we feel.
The internet has just allowed certain groups who wmight be ashamed to announce their true feelings to say the quiet part out loud anonymously. This gets the next generation to not see a problem with it and go from there.
As an example. Take an impressionable young boy (14-18), he has trouble getting dates, doesn’t have a great home life. Little bit of a loner. Before the internet, hed have to figure out a purpose. Maybe he’d start going to a gym or hitting the books harder to be smarter or something… With the Internet he’s able to find “friends”, he finds a community, that community may lead him down dark paths… Where some in better living situations may say “this is too much” and walk away, he doesn’t have anything to walk to… So he gets more and more indoctrinated into the cause.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org 2 months ago
Emotions not ratio are the key.
Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 months ago
Fascism is a result of declining Capitalism, as an example. Ideas come from material reality, not spontaneously.
bouh@lemmy.world 2 months ago
It’s a slippery slope. First it’s either a community they can share anything with, or it is a subject dear to them that they see people give solution to. Then, slowly, one idea at a time, they get litteraly corrupted. Ideas are imprinted through repetition, values are suggested. Then, or before, you imprint the idea that the others are lying. This is key because it seed doubt in everything, but as he is closer from this group, this group get to imprint its own ideas through repetition alone. Distance is built with relatives so that the group is the only group he has. Then if he starts to disagree, he will be kicked, sometimes also punished, and he’ll be left alone, or at least he must be convinced of it. Once there radicalisation is a process that’s hard to stop.
Doubt, distrust, and a group to be with are the key ingredients. Liberalism is a fertile ground for this because it promotes individualism when humans are social creatures. So it’s very easy to find people in need of a social group that gives belonging. And racism makes the easiest pretense : you belong because of your blood, or because you’re born here.
For sexism, it’s mostly a reactionary backlash, and secondly this liberalism problem of promoting individualism to humans who seek belonging. Feminism did won, and the old way of treating women is being addressed. But it is a process, and while we know what’s bad, we don’t have much new examples to follow. Yet most people have been trained in the old way, so now they are at lost. It’s not the first reason why they’re alone, liberalism has this place, but it is far easier to blame it on women and feminism than to try to build a new society. And also, it again gives them belonging with men like them that understands them and give explanations and solutions to their problems. Not good ones, but that’s not the point.
Don_Dickle@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Ok got to ask and if you don’t know thats ok…how come it seems females are not in this type of group.? Or is there some and we just don’t hear about it? I only bring it up because you kept using he and men so thats what got me wondering…but really want to say thank you for typing all that out and a thought provocing answer…no sarcasm
bouh@lemmy.world 2 months ago
For the first, it can be women too. For misogyny it’s harder. But there is a trend currently to attract and radicalise women into conservatism too. The trad wives movement. I don’t remember the names but there are movement for spirituality and naturalism that are also linked to trad wives. That is also a slippery slope : first you hook them spirituality, and at the end you have JK Rowling who is an anti-trans activist.
Women and men are not in the same groups simply because conservatives are misogynistic so they like to separate men and women.
Overall it is a culture war lead by the far right.
BruceTwarzen@lemm.ee 2 months ago
So there was a town next to where i grew up their claim to fame was that they had a lot of neo nazis. What they basically did was going around and picking up people and outsiders and befriend them, turning them into racists. I think it works like that with a lot of these groups.
PolyLlamaRous@lemmy.world 2 months ago
There is a lot of good books (or audio books) I could suggest. This has been also a interest in mine. The reasons are different and also the same. Many of the top comments touch on some of the points.
Flax_vert@feddit.uk 2 months ago
Tiny peepee
finickydesert@lemmy.ml 2 months ago
They can’t read /s Jokes aside they trust their git feelings way above facts and logic
GladiusB@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Their evidence isn’t your evidence. Your curation of facts are never the same as anyone else’s. How you interpret these facts are reinforced by your family or friends. If you don’t have either you find community where you can. Rinse. Wash. Repeat.
This is the same for many communities. Where a person finds themselves isn’t necessarily malicious. They are protecting what they value and think is what makes them unique. That is what makes them dangerous. It’s all they have.