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Comments

• adespoton@lemmy.ca ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It lasted most of history. It seems like every time society shifts to the left, it only lasts for a few generations before it dies under autocratic control.

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  • givesomefucks@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The problem is they’ll always be shitty fascists who think they should be in charge of everything.

    And the majority of people only realize how bad that is when they lived thru it.

    For an enduring free society, it needs to be a foundational belief that everyone is equal and has basic inalienable rights…

    And before anyone says we tried that, their “everyone” was just “white landowning men”.

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    • madcaesar@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      The problem is that the left, progressives, whatever… are usually more open minded and liberal so they bicker and find nuance in EVERYTHING. Which is nice… But also a massive weakness when it comes to building strong coalitions.

      The left is endlessly sub dividing… each group gate keeping harder than the previous… each one more white knighting than the previous with endless, useless infighting.

      Meanwhile the right is like “brown people are to blame for everything!”

      “Sounds, good here’s my vote…”

      😐

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• SanctimoniousApe@lemmings.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Evil always gets ahead because it’s willing to do anything to “win.” Good? Not so much.

  The only reason Good gets control every so often is because Evil is too focused on “winning” & ultimately inadvertently destroys its own foundations in order to do so. Once it figures out how to avoid that, we’re really screwed.

  The closest example of that I can think of is China’s current leader. I’ll grant many will somewhat rightly claim he’s done a lot of good over there, but he’s definitely accomplished a fair bit of it through some significant evils.

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  • essell@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The difference this time is that the underlying debate is around the definitions of good and evil.

    A lot of people over the last ten years have heard about the evil things some people have done and plan to do and gone “yup, sounds good to me.”

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    • SanctimoniousApe@lemmings.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I tend to doubt it’s as different as you think. IMHO, the majority of people want good, but are clueless as to what exactly that looks like when it comes to more complex topics like managing the wide variety of people that make up a society. Understanding that usually requires a LOT more time and effort into reasoning things out than they’re willing/able to put in, anyway.

      They therefore pick someone to trust who seems (read: cons them into believing) like they know “the truth” to do all their thinking for them. Those arrogant enough to portray themselves as such are almost always malignant personality types interested primarily in manipulating others to do their bidding in order to benefit themselves. They “know” everything, and either are exceedingly unlikely to admit to human failings such as not knowing something, or always have a ready excuse that puts blame upon their enemies for their failings.

      They divide people up & pit them against one another to distract, ensure loyalty, and keep control.

      Any of this sound familiar? It’s a pattern repeated among humans throughout history.

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• FelixCress@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Yes, in 1930s. Lasted till 1945.

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  • ZMoney@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    There were huge countervailing forces then. New Deal US. Soviet Union. Socialist parties gaining power the world over. The rise of fascism was limited to a few powerful countries, not systematic like it is today.

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    • FelixCress@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Strongly disagree. Fascists wave went through the substantial part of Europe, not a “few powerful countries”.

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    • biofaust@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      You called 1920s Italy “powerful”?! As an Italian…let’s say I remain baffled.

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• Kolanaki@pawb.social ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’ve been alive for almost 41 years and this is the first time I’ve seen anything like this with my own eyes. All other examples happened decades before I was born.

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• Fedizen@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I think last time this happened a bunch of anti media consolidation laws were passed to prevent rich people from owning everything (unfortunately they were repealed in the 90s in the US) Also taxes, wars. Basically rich people will fund wars to ensure people don’t take their money but in doing so they destroy their money because wars kill workers, destroy products and produce nothing of value.

  Its easier just to tax rich people and break up the large conglomorates they’re using to rig everything. Tech companies would need to be included here.

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  • bagsy@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    We don’t tax those things because we don’t have true representation. Our “representatives” do not work for the people, they work for the rich. Senators, Congressman, SC, and the president should all be put in jail if they are convicted of taking bribes. Unfortunately, we have two separate sets of laws in this country, one for the rich, and one for the poor.

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• BurgerBaron@piefed.social ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Humans being awful is most of our entire written history. Bill Wurst has the cliff notes:

  https://youtu.be/xuCn8ux2gbs

  The powerful made themselves divine deities directly or made up religions where the deity gave them power over others. Conquest, war, rape, tribalism, raids, corruption, oppression, suppression, slavery, spice trade, disease, volancoes causing crop failures and wiping out empires, or causing starving pirate raids who did the same, ice ages causing genetic bottle necks where we almost go extinct, whatever.

  You could read David Mitchell’s recent book “Unruly” about the ~1600 years of violent dumb misery following the fall of Rome just in the land whuch became the U.K. if you like. Pretty dry material but he does his best as a comedian to get through it all. It’s a very long list of short lived Kings (and a couple Queens) murdering each other and peasants while the Northerners did the same and eventually settled and interbred and continued murdering each other and living short violent dumb lives. A lot of them aspired to be like a fictional King Arthur. There’s your yearning for past glories. A little like today. It’s not real, it’s fantasy.

  Until the printing press and the renaissance, sort of. Temporarily destabilised the powerful. Kinda like the internet. Or radio broadcast I suppose. The old guard didn’t know how to exploit it at first. Printing press fucked up the massively corrupt Catholics at the time, fresh off their crusades and coming up with the idea of paying money to get into heaven. They really hated the idea of peasants learning how to read too. Martin Luther had a bunch of reasons they sucked. One was a complaint about how many little boys each priest kept. Nothing new under the Sun.

  Relating any of it to the “right wing” becomes incoherent in a hurry when trying to compare things to modernity. Conservatives are what Royalists became after people kept cutting Royal heads off. Suffice to say though, it was shit fucking awful almost all the time humans have existed.

  Looking to the future with climate change in a few hundred years and I expect way more extremism and a lot of death fighting and starving over the dwindling habitable land near the poles.

  Eventually the Sun gets too hot even if we were perfect and peaceful and the oceans boil into space. Long before the Red Giant phase swallows the scorched Earth entirely. The end.

  Anyways, I’ve deliberately sterilised myself.

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  • icylobster@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    This is a big reason why I hated learning history. It is very depressing. I’m always amazed how people can’t seem to understand things they didn’t personally live through. It is a constant cycle of exploration then revenge on the exploiters and then a new way to exploit.

    I’m trying to be hopeful, but it feels like we are in the phase where most need to suffer in order to get to a better place. Climate change is scary, but I try to remember progress can be explosive in ways you don’t expect.

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    • BurgerBaron@piefed.social ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Well this is just delving my own personal musings: I think we’ve evolved to do our best to not understand and bury our collective heads in the sand. Being born with natural critical thinking ability (being driven to seek out maddening truth, rejecting comforting lies) and empathy ability is a rare combination. I think you need both to, as you say, understand things you didn’t personally live through. I mean real understanding, not a cold rote memorisation of facts and trivia to pass a government / post secondary tests.

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  • Onyxonblack@lemmy.zip ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I love your comment, very frank about it. Thank you!

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    • BurgerBaron@piefed.social ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Appreciated, I’m glad I could write something at least somewhat impactful while being very brief.

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• JizzmasterD@lemmy.ca ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Until a war, famine or plague was terrible enough to make people realize that most of their social differences weren’t as important as they thought and they had to rally round an ideal to survive.

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• jenesaisquoi@feddit.org ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Indeed. It happened in Germany in the 30s. It lasted until the country was utterly destroyed and tens of millions of people were killed.

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  • hayvan@feddit.nl ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    It wasn’t only in Germany. It first started in Italy as Fascism, and became popular all over the place. As with many Italian inventions, Germans “improved” it and made Nazizm. But they also inspired a lot of similar racist movements, especially around Europe. Captain America was published in 1938 specifically because some comic artists worried Hitler was becoming too popular in USA.

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• Formfiller@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  In Europe 65-75 people had to die before the pendulum swung back.

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  • Maeve@kbin.earth ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    In ww2 Europe 65-75 people had to die before the pendulum swung back.

    🧐

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    • ilinamorato@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      They probably meant “65-75 million,” but hey, even the typo is correct as long as you’re talking about a very specific 65-75 people.

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• hanrahan@piefed.social ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It’s all… perspective and relative ?

  The UK oversaw the slaughter of Kenyans in the Mau Mau rebellion.

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366?wprov=sfla1

  The CIA helping Suharto slaughter Indonesians in a genocide

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965%E2%80%9366?wprov=sfla1

  Israel’s existence is becase the US and UK taking native lands

  The Kurds were supposed to be free but too much Oil and that was stopped.

  Around 80 years ago, Eric Blair (aka George Orwell) wrote this:

  All left-wing parties in the highly industrialized countries are at bottom a sham, because they make it their business to fight against something which they do not really wish to destroy. They have internationalist aims, and at the same time they struggle to keep up a standard of life with which those aims are incompatible. We all live by robbing Asiatic coolies, and those of us who are ‘enlightened’ all maintain that those coolies ought to be set free; but our standard of living, and hence our ‘enlightenment,’ demands that the robbery shall continue.

  Somewhat more recently, Wendell Berry, in an essay entitled “Word and Flesh”, wrote this:

  This statement of Orwell’s is clearly applicable to our situation now; all we need to do is change a few nouns. The religion and the environmentalism of the highly industrialized countries are at bottom a sham, because they make it their business to fight against something they do not really wish to destroy. We all live by robbing nature, but our standard of living demands that the robbery shall continue. We must achieve the character and acquire the skills to live much poorer than we do. We must waste less. We must do more for ourselves and each other. It is either that or continue merely to think and talk about changes that we are inviting catastrophe to make. The great obstacle is simply this: the conviction that we cannot change because we are dependent on what is wrong. But that is the addict’s excuse, and we know that it will not do.

  The destruction of the natural world is not the result of global capitalism, industrialisation, ‘Western civilisation’ or any flaw in human institutions. It is a consequence of the evolutionary success of an exceptionally rapacious primate. Throughout all of history and prehistory, human advance has coincided with ecological devastation.” ― John Gray, Straw Dogs: Thoughts On Humans And Other Animals

  We pretend we’ve been anything other then fascist since …?

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  • DistrictSIX@lemmy.zip ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I assume OP meant fascism that’s directed internally towards the home population. Like Orwell wrote, the way of life of the population at home is predicated on the continued fascist exploitation of non white people abroad.

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• Zwuzelmaus@feddit.org ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  The fascist times throughout Europe. It was at a different time in each country.

  Before, there weren’t what we would call democracies. Later, people learned to get along with people who voted for other parties.

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  • MolochAlter@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Then they collectively forgot about that last part.

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• dirigibles@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You gotta stop thinking of it as a left/right thing. It doesn’t exist. It’s clouding your perspective. Populists vs establishment might be a better way to categorize if you needed just two groups, but that’s still too simplistic.

  The world is a messy place with lots of different groups trying to get power, enrich themselves, and push their ideology. Whatever ideology a group is pushing has little to do with having the moral high ground and will typically result in their own benefit.

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  • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Whatever ideology a group is pushing has little to do with having the moral high ground and will typically result in their own benefit.

    what little you can do to improve the quality of politics is to educate the people so they can analyze and decide whether the policies are meaningful for common good or not.

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  • sleen@lemmy.zip ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    There is a good video that explains this kind of phenomenon. First it starts with a political 1D left-right line then ends with a political tesseract.

    Important thing is, it is better off to treat it as a spectrum rather than a graph. Because, as implied - complexity.

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    • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      treat it as a spectrum

      a spectrum is typically 1-dimensional as well, though; at least the spectrums i think of

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• MissJinx@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Berlin 1939

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• Bennyboybumberchums@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Image

  This is how I feel about todays politics.

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  • phoenixz@lemmy.ca ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Oh fuck off already

    It’s the exact opposite of what you’re showing here, and at this point you can’t be that naive to believe what you just posted. Stop trolling

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    • Bennyboybumberchums@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      No, that picture is pretty accurate. Im 48 years old. I live in Scotland, Im a left wing socialist. But to Americans, which is a fucking laugh considering they have no left wing party, Im pretty much a nazi. Even though, I havent moved my opinion on any issue in over 30 years.

      Social media has made you all insane. You dont have opinions of your own, you the endless chase for up arrows. At best you get your opinions for talking heads on youtube, telling what you think, what to feel about whatever fucking nonsense is making the rounds to get your engaged and clicking. Make no mistake, if being an actual nazi was the popular thing, youd all be doing it. Thats how fucking sad you are.

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  • ilinamorato@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I had to look at this three times to figure out whether it was a troll or not, and I’m still not sure. But ok, I’ll bite.

    I’m an American citizen, and while I was a pretty angry neocon as a college student in the early 2000s, I settled down into a much more open, responsive, empathetic conservatism by 2008-2010 or so. And for about ten years, my politics didn’t change a bit. I still voted for smaller government, I still voted against wars (super funny in retrospect), I still voted in favor of my values (which also didn’t change).

    But in that timespan, the far right worked themselves into a lather about Obama, a fury that I didn’t (and still don’t) quite understand apart from cable news stoking the fire; yeah, I disagreed with a lot of his policies, but I certainly never wished him dead. To everyone else, though, he was the antichrist. And so I watched as friends of mine went down the rabbit hole, getting more and more worked up and rabid. When Trump came down the escalator in 2015, I thought it was a blip, and we (conservatives) would collectively realize how far off the rails we had gone.

    Instead, I got death threats. My kids got death threats. From people who used to be my friends, all because I dared say that I didn’t think Trump was a good choice. And, remember, my opinions and values hadn’t changed over the previous decade or so.

    Since then, it’s gotten much, much worse. And, in fairness, I’ve seen how much I had been lied to, even before Trump, and moved over to the left as a result; but the right wing has gone so far over the edge that some of the posts I made on Facebook in 2005-2006—at the peak of my conservative rage, the stuff that was basically just Sean Hannity talking points—I’m seeing MAGAs pillorying Democrats making those same points for being “radical woke communists.” I’m not talking about similar viewpoints. I’m talking about nearly identical wording, in some cases.

    So, no. This meme is absolutely bonkers, in a way that’s so obviously backwards as to bewilder, and the best way to prove it is to point out that George W(MDs in Iraq) Bush opposed Trump. MAGA has moved the window of acceptable political thought so far to the right that today’s Democrats sound like 2008’s Republicans, yet they’re being called socialists. Some of MAGA’s “centrists” are actively looking to rehabilitate the words “nationalist” and “Nazi.” “Small government,” “personal liberty,” and “values voters” are considered left-of-center ideals. At this point even Ronald Reagan would’ve been considered a “lefty” to this new-look GOP.

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    • HubertManne@piefed.social ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      To be accurate you need like 5 figures. far right, far left, moderate right, moderate left, and me. Then you have moderate right in the second panel move to far right and have far right go further right on the third one. Then the bubble for the moderate right in the third would be looking to the far right and going. wait for me.

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  • Fedizen@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    What’s it like being afraid of everything except the police state?

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    • Bennyboybumberchums@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Where did you get that I was afraid of anything?

      Must be so weird looking at that meme, and not getting it. Be brave, little toaster, Be brave.

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  • bradorsomething@ttrpg.network ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    That can’t even be stupidity, no one is that stupid. I’m a 90’s conservative and give me a middle of the road democrat every day.

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    • HubertManne@piefed.social ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      thanks. reminded me to check.

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• Kornblumenratte@feddit.org ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’d say all of history until 1968?

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• Randomgal@lemmy.ca ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It ended with guillotines.

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  • AshMan85@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    No, there is more recent time in 1930s germany

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    • bunkyprewster@startrek.website ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Ends with invading foreign army liberating USians from fascist dictator.

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• pelespirit@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Look for the grift in every single country you mentioned, because ultimately, that’s the goal. They want the power and control of money. A narcissist is probably behind every one too. They think they can do it.

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• DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I think the best thing to do is just find our own alternative communities. Make our own hangouts. Our own clubs. We can still live life and be happy even if the rest of society is shit. Depending on how this upcoming elections goes. I might go underground. Just disconnect from society. Stop talking to normies outside of business. I will have put in my 35 years of fighting. I don’t want to be miserable my entire life. I don’t want to argue with people my entire life. Maybe it’s just impossible to connect with people who are t like you. That doesn’t mean we have to be sad. It doesn’t mean we have to be alone. We can make our own spaces. Stay off the grid and under the radar. Have fun and have our own culture with people who like us.

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• RBWells@lemmy.world ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Not exactly. I am old enough to remember wondering why gay couples couldn’t get legal marriage, and when interracial couples were stared at, and the ozone layer had a hole, and the Satanic Panic, but it felt like we were in a shitty spot but moving in the right direction just painfully slowly. Lots more violence than now.

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  • SL3wvmnas@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yeah, my working theory is violent narcissists have a much harder time beeing casually violent, so they go ever more totalitarian, because then they can be violent without repercussions again…

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• ryathal@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  There’s nothing quite like today. There’s things that are similar, but social media has really made things worse.

  Populism is rising because things haven’t been great for a lot of people for a long time, and it’s too hard to ignore anymore. Globalism and free trade were massively oversold to the masses, it hurt wide swaths of people that have been ignored for decades. People that feel disenfranchised will vote for change regardless of the change proposed.

  Social media has escalated everything as well. The echo chambers are enormous and essentially impossible to avoid. Many traditional institutions are also extremely weak now that would have forced more interaction between people with differing views and limited extremism. Social media also does a great job in conflating the size of various groups and beliefs, a few dozen people can make a community seem as large and impactful as a few thousand .

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  • gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    People that feel disenfranchised will vote for change regardless of the change proposed.

    hahah yeah unfortunately that’s accurate :D

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• TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  It constantly goes in cycles, three steps forwards, two steps backward.

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  • LSNLDN@slrpnk.net ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Two steps back somehow in 2025 involves tripping and falling behind by nearly a century

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  • M1ch431@slrpnk.net ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    In my opinion, it’s always been a pretend step forward while slowly walking backwards unbeknownst to everyone.

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    • TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      That’s just untrue. People live in better conditions today, even just considering social acceptance, and not technology or medicine. Most societies are at least in theory democratic, where people get some input towards the ruler. There are legal protections against slavery, misogyny, homophobia, racism, transphobia, and anti monopolistic agencies that try to temper the worst parts of capitalism. Trade unions have successfully campaigned so that now people work less than they have since the start of the industrial revolution, in unprecedentedly better conditions.

      Don’t get me wrong, there’s a long way to go, and many of these things exist a lot more in theory than practice. Child rights, in particularly, are woefully lacking.

      However, claiming that the past, at any point, was better for the vast majority of people is the same nostalgic, rose tinted, incorrect thinking that MAGA (when was America ‘great’ the first time?) Republicans fall prey to.

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• gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Something common I see in all these parties is strong disaffection with the current state of their countries and a longing to an idealized past they promise to bring back, to make countries great again…

  The past cannot come back, neither will it come back just because some people want it to. It’s completely futile, but people are not rational about this, they’re completely emotional and tribal.

  Yes, societies are going through the five stages of grief:

  • denial (that there are problems)
  • anger (vote for a strongman) <-- you are here
  • bargaining (maybe we can partially go back to the past)
  • depression (this sucks, nothing can be done about it)
  • acceptance (well, let’s look forward and make the best out of it)

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• HubertManne@piefed.social ⁨10⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  So at most we are talking a bit over 200 years that might be relevant to this. Just fyi if this is unique its not been a possibility for very long history wise.

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