The fun thing is that none of those things have ever been a symptom of communism/socialism. The authoritarian states that wish to maintain unitary control of the people implemented those things in spite of the egalitarian nature of communism/socialism. But they absolutely are symptoms of capitalism, where unitary control is part of the system.
The Dangers of Socialism they warned us about...
Submitted 21 hours ago by sanitation@lemmy.today to workreform@lemmy.world
https://lemmy.today/pictrs/image/e6fa79aa-64de-49db-b068-e5f067629bd8.png
Comments
kryptonianCodeMonkey@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 3 hours ago
so no one understands socialism.
yenahmik@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
It’s almost like the problem is authoritarianism, not the economic system
cecilkorik@piefed.ca 14 hours ago
Extremism is also the problem, because it allows economic systems to be taken to extremes, which become unbalanced and that then unbalances other systems, like the political systems, which when given the right push by a particular aspiring authoritarian can easily end up landing on authoritarianism.
The middle ground is usually the safest place to be. Socialism and capitalism are economic tools, they both have their place, for certain purpose. Extremists would tell you one is strictly, absolutely, and universally better than the other and imply that thus we should only ever use one system for everything (usually without strictly, absolutely, or universally defining what “better” actually means, because it’s usually a pretty self-serving form of “better"). That is an extremist position that many capitalists take, and most of western society spent the last oh, hundred years or so believing to various degrees.
Socialized medicine is perfectly sensible, for example, and that’s a hill I’m perfectly willing to die on (but because I have access to socialized medicine I probably won’t have to die, and I won’t be bankrupted either, hooray :P)
Socialism is not perfect, but neither is capitalism, neither is democracy, neither is pretty much anything. Perfection is a myth. There is no perfect tool, not in a workshop and not in a civilization. Some are more powerful than others. Some are more dangerous. Often the most powerful ones are the most dangerous. That doesn’t mean they are bad, but it does mean we must respect them and use them with care and attention, and only when appropriate. We don’t have perfect tools, and we probably never will but we can have a large and growing collection of tools we can use to manage our lives, our society, and our civilization. The more tools we know how to use safely the better. Only using one tool for everything is a stupid way of doing things, and it can be dangerous in its own way.
BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today 8 hours ago
Our economic system has spawned a new type of player, the Sociopathic Oligarch, who has embraced authoritarianism to protect their fortunes.
jobbies@lemmy.zip 21 hours ago
I dont think those things are acceptable regardless of the doctrine your country follows.
boonhet@sopuli.xyz 21 hours ago
It’s also more of a dictatorship vs functioning democracy distinction than a capitalism vs socialism distinction
The soviet union had most of the things on the list, but that’s because it was a dictatorship, it was never run by the proletariat, it still had an elite and that elite was particularly nasty.
From what I gather, Cuba, while not perfect, is in a much better place in terms of human rights, and has to feed its people despite sanctions. And we have several nations still practicing capitalism that aren’t dictatorships.
Of course the US conservatives have done a lot to make people conflate socialism with authoritarianism and lukewarm liberals with socialists.
jobbies@lemmy.zip 20 hours ago
several nations still practicing capitalism that aren’t dictatorships
Most of them are ‘social democracies’ that are a mix of socialism and capitalism. It doesnt always have to be left vs right.
MisterFrog@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
The point is that people will pretend that socialism = authoritarianism, just because there were a bunch of countries claiming to be socialist in history, despite being incredibly undemocratic.
Socialism is the workers controlling society. So by definition (or at least my interpretation), none of those countries were/are socialist anyway.
jobbies@lemmy.zip 3 hours ago
people will pretend that socialism = authoritarianism
Americans do - they use the terms communism/socialism interchangeably and can’t seem to explain why they don’t like either. Those of us who’ve grown up with political variety know what socialism is.
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
I don’t think socialism and democracy have anything to do with each other (other than that if you give people democracy they will generally vote for socialism depending on how empathetic the group is).
You can have socialism with zero democracy and you can have socialism with tons of democracy.
DeathsEmbrace@lemmy.world 21 hours ago
Not if you read the closeted fascist warning signs on democracy.
mechoman444@lemmy.world 7 hours ago
Here we go again. This is what happens when people don’t understand the difference between an economic system and a system of government.
Capitalism and socialism are economic models. Democracy, authoritarianism, dictatorship, and communism are systems of government. They are not interchangeable, nor are they mutually exclusive.
You can have democratic capitalism, authoritarian capitalism, democratic socialism, and authoritarian socialism. History has provided examples of every combination.
Mass surveillance, censorship, political corruption, police abuse, and restrictions on protest are all functions of how a government exercises power. They are not inherent features of capitalism or socialism.
Posts like this don’t demonstrate some profound insight into economics. They demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of basic political science. The fact that this kind of meme gets shared uncritically is a good indication of just how widespread that ignorance has become online.
Wakmrow@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
Democratic capitalism lmao.
Anything can be true when you make shit up
mechoman444@lemmy.world 24 minutes ago
O man.
You realize the most successful countries on Earth are Democratic capitalists right?
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
MFW the entire US and most of the western world is imaginary.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
Capitalism and socialism are economic models. Democracy, authoritarianism, dictatorship, and communism are systems of government.
🙄 Communism isn’t an economic model?
mechoman444@lemmy.world 18 minutes ago
It is in fact not.
a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production
It is a system government. Although the concept of communism is extremely complex. Ideally, it would be a classless society based on shared and equal equity.
Socialism is part of it of course, but one can exist without the other.
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
This is a pedantic comment; read “Marxist-Leninism” where you see “Communism” when a lot of people use the latter.
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
100%
The reason why socialism gets stereotyped as authoritarian is that most hyper-capitalist societies are very resistant to becoming much more socialist in short order, so authoritarian factions emerge to make (violent) revolution, which begets an authoritarian system of government when those factions finish the revolution and are in a perfect position to fill the power vacuum.
schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works 6 hours ago
The reason why socialism gets stereotyped as authoritarian is
propaganda.
Keep the government out of my Medicare!
craftrabbit@lemmy.zip 8 hours ago
Hm maybe this tells us that authoritarian systems can emerge no maze the economic model?
saltesc@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
This is non sequitur.
“Bad thing happens under system X, therefore system X is uniquely responsible/bad.”
No. We have an entire history to refer to where these things also happen under communism, as much as feudalism, fascism, theocratic states, monarchies, juntas, etc. It’s also ballsy to try make the claim, because if there is significant relation between systemic ideologies and these symptoms, rather than a more anthropological one, then communist states are the historical leader with Stalin, Mao’s China, East Germany, NK’s juche, etc. But only a moron would neglect the actual causes, generally concentrated and unaccountable power(s). Communism and capitalism are just optional toppings. It’s like saying “the pizza is burned because you chose anchovies and not pineapple”.
And that kind of this vs that leads into what’s really going on here, one of the internet’s favourite passtimes; tribalism. Pick a team, learn enough about the game to follow what’s going on, go to war with whatever rivals your new peers tell you too, scream nonsensical things from the armchair. So an identity-protective cognition ends up with post lacking comparison and history, for a conclusion their in-group is committed to. I e. such a post does nothing for outreach to non-communist thinkers, even though OP thinks they’re provoking thoughts.
valar@lemmy.ca 19 hours ago
Th OP is a counter argument to the non sequitur viewpoint. Right wingers love to say socialism is bad because it will bring these things. OP is saying, we have those anyway, so it’s not a good argument against socialism.
quarkquasar@lemmy.world 15 hours ago
Makes sense when you think about it, wouldn’t you do the same if you were intending on ruling over a group of people like despots?
minorkeys@sh.itjust.works 18 hours ago
Yeah, because its all projection from capitalist about what they would do with power.
BillyClark@piefed.social 16 hours ago
I’ve seen several times where somebody posts a picture saying “Look what socialism causes,” and the picture is like a tent city in modern America that was created under capitalism.
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
In the US we’re not quite USSR/CCP-levels of these things yet (which are the countries anti-socialist people think of when they demonize socialism) (therefore the post is hyperbole/propaganda), but we’ve been making big leaps lately so I think this meme will be true soon. I think the much more coherent, accurate, and therefore effective facet of this is pointing out that it’s authoritarianism that does this, not socialism. We’ve had (very limited) socialism in the US for many years, and many prosperous and well-regarded-in-supposed-anti-socialist-people’s-eyes countries have more socialism than the US has.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
In the US we’re not quite USSR/CCP-levels
We never are. The Foreigners are always worse.
I think this meme will be true soon.
I’ve been reading this since the Reagan Administration. It’s also Big Government. It’s always Authoritarianism. The remedy is always some flavor of Deregulation or States Rights or (Capitalist) Anarchism or A Return to The Constitutional Principles.
it’s authoritarianism that does this
Real Literal Reaganism
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world 6 hours ago
We never are. The Foreigners are always worse.
??? No.
I’ve been reading this since the Reagan Administration. It’s also Big Government. It’s always Authoritarianism. The remedy is always some flavor of Deregulation or States Rights or (Capitalist) Anarchism or A Return to The Constitutional Principles.
I can’t tell if you’re asserting we’re past this point or we’ll never get to this point.
Real Literal Reaganism
I can’t tell if you’re asserting I’m siding with Reagan or the post is siding with Reagan, but both are hilariously off-base.
danc4498@lemmy.world 20 hours ago
Peak capitalism.
cavitationfetishist01@quokk.au 20 hours ago
But we can’t do socialism. The novels would get way longer, and we’re already suffering a crisis of attention spans and literacy.
Radical_Socialist_t00t@lemmy.ca 20 hours ago
Scientific Socialism people, look it up its the only way forward
Digit@lemmy.wtf 14 hours ago
Reminds of
The promise of socialism, much easier, more robustly, if doing freedom first.
Though of course, push too hard to the sides, and you can tip over a slippery slope, on the right, it’s the mechanism of wealth and power consolidation, with the rich able to accumulate wealth (and therefor power) faster, since “it takes money to make money”, and on the left it’s more a mere ideological slip up, to a totalitarianising fervency.
Big baron terrorises with scare stories of big brother. Big brother terrorises with scare stories of big baron. Both terrorising everybody towards totalitarianism and tyranny. We do better without these bigs that have us all jump at once. Big bank, big bully, big bot, big blight it matters not. Freedom first, where we can have meaningful discussion about our economic balance and how to organise things.
arotrios@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
It would be really nice if folks understood that authoritarianism will always ultimately oppress them, regardless of which ideology it serves.
And it would be doubly awesome if we could deconstruct those ideologies, take from each what works for the betterment of humanity, and build a way out of this ass backwards dystopia instead of shrieking “TankiE!” “FaCisT!!” “WoKE!” at each other.
But that might be a little too much to expect from a world full of hairless apes.
HCSOThrowaway@lemmy.world 3 hours ago
Politics is far too much like team sports for a lot of people.
People on Lemmy act like criticizing the misdeeds of the USSR is an attack on all of socialism’s principles.