Why do they turn Federation into a dystopia?

Comments

• T156@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I was alienated by those anti-android resentments in Picard

  Funnily enough, this isn’t actually anything new. The Federation has historically harboured sentiments against sapient androids and holograms, not intentionally, of course, but more that they don’t believe that they are people. Just look at the treatment the Doctor/Mark I EMH, Data, and the ExoComps received. The Doctor had fight to regain the rights to works he made, and had the Voyager crew factory resetting him whenever he had a human problem, Data had to fight to be recognised as enough of a person to avoid being dismantled, and then had to do again to avoid having his daughter taken. The ExoComps’ sapience was initially taken as malfunctions, and they were lobotomised, to be used as bombs. The Borg nearly got a genocidal virus unleashed upon them, by the Federation, and Picard specifically got into trouble for not deploying it.

  To paraphrase Chancellor Gorkon, the Federation is a human(oid)s only club. Everyone else gets pushed to the wayside.

  How in the hell is this the same federation of TNG, Voyager and DS9?

  It is also the same Federation that saw no qualms about using multiple genocidal weapons against their enemies. The moment they were threatened even slightly, out comes the big G.

  Sure, Wolf 359 had a considerable death toll, and one of the Federation core worlds was threatened, but the automatic reaction shouldn’t have been attempt genocide at the first opportunity. DS9 at least made an attempt to show that they were breaking the rules of engagement by putting down self-replicating subspace mines.

  Similarly, the Dominion War. The Federation response to realising a rogue organisation had unleashed a virus designed to wipe out one of the main species of the Dominion seems to have been to sit pretty and wait for them to be forced to the negotiation table, rather than work towards a cure, and try to send it over ASAP. If it wasn’t for the DS9 crew going out of their way to make a cure, one might never have existed, leaving them to die. It would be unimaginable, if, during the Federation-Klingon war, the Federation had simply sat back, and told the Klingon Empire “good luck” in response to both Narendra-3, and the Praxis incidents, instead of offering aid. Nor did they just sit back and tell the Romulan Empire to go away when their main star blew up.

  Voyager at least gets a little pass since they were working on their own, and didn’t have the support of the rest of the Federation backing them up, but ethically, it’s still not a good look for them to promote Captain Janeway for her work in assisting Admiral Janeway in deploying the neurolytic pathogen that we know ultimately wiped out the Collective.

  Star Trek is supposed to be the ONE fiction with a positive, utopian view on mankind and the future. I totally get the attraction of dystopian settings but for that I can read some Warhammer 40k novels. This really makes me furious.

  I would be a little curious about where that came from. The Federation is better, but it thinks of itself as a perfect utopia, when TNG shows it to be more due to hubris on the part of the Federation, and that they not only have some ways to go, but have to spend work to stay there.

  In my opinion, the difference between the Federation as it is now, and the way it was back then is that the flaws are more front and centre now.

  Whereas previously, it seemed to be treated as more of a case of it being the actions of a lot of bad eggs within the Federation. Starfleet famously has issues with the admiralty trying to order reprehensible things. Similarly, for DS9, where it’s left ambiguous whether Section 31 is a rogue organisation made of people who think that the Federation is “too soft”, and thus needs people to do the dirty work behind the scenes. The actual flaws within the Federation, like the mess about what rights to personhood androids and holograms had, were mostly skated over.

  Compare that to now, where we see a bunch of Admirals convene to decide to blow up Kling/Qo’noS. In older shows, it would have just been one admiral giving the order, and the decision would laid solely at their feet, rather than something that would be attribute more to Starfleet, or the Federation in general.

  source
• USSBurritoTruck@startrek.website ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Hey, remember in ‘The Conscience of the King’ when we found out that the governor of a colony massacred half the population because they were experiencing a famine?

  Remember ‘The Menagerie’ when we found out you can still get the death penalty in Federation?

  Remember how Kirk consigned the populations of two planets, one of which told the Enterprise in no uncertain terms to not visit, to violent war, because he didn’t like the way they were conducting their ongoing conflict in ‘A Taste of Armageddon’?

  Remember in ‘A Wolf in the Fold’ where we learned that Starfleet has alliances with less advanced worlds where the population is amenable to being “pleasure planets” for officers on shore leave to engage in sex tourism?

  Remember when Kirk used a primitive culture to fight a proxy war with the Klingons in ‘A Private Little War’, and then abandoned them when he got a bit sad?

  Remember that a founding member of the Federation, the Tellarites, were willing to keep a planet out of the Federation so they could continue exploiting its rich resources that the locals weren’t able to properly defend on their own, in ‘Journey to Babel’?

  Remember ‘Patterns of Force’ where a former Academy instructor and renowned Federation historian introduced Nazism to a pre-warp society, even becoming their Führer?

  Remember when we found out in ‘The Cloud Minders’ that an explicitly Federation member world maintains a rigid caste system?

  Remember ‘To Short a Season’ where the plot was based around a Federation admiral who had supplied weapons to terrorists as a commander, resulting in a coup where the terrorist leader took control of their planet?

  Remember how in ‘The Measure of a Man’, the Federation demanded that a sentient being, a member of Starfleet for 24 years, submit himself to be experimented upon so the Federation could make more of his kind for their own use?

  Remember when in ‘The Survivors’’, Picard choose to do nothing to the being who committed complete genocide of a sentient species, claiming there were no laws to fit his crime?

  Remember ‘The Offspring’ when an Admiral shows up to take away Data’s child for study, despite the fact that he won his right to live in ‘The Measure of a Man’?

  Remember when Worf murdered a candidate for head of a foreign state in ‘Reunion’ and got off with a slap on the wrist?

  Remember ‘The Drumhead’ when a respected former Starfleet admiral comes aboard the Enterprise and begins to persecute a crewpoerson based on who his grandfather was, on the basis of the fact that he committed a thoughtcrime, and Worf went along with it?

  Remember in ‘Ensign Ro’ how a Starfleet admiral colluded with agents of a fascist states to blame refugees of that fascist’s states occupation of their homeworld for an attack the fascists commited, and to that end ordered a disgraced Starfleet officer to offer weapons to the refugeers?

  Remember when Picard ordered the creation of a virus that might have potentially committed genocide against the Borg in ‘I, Borg’?

  Remmber in ‘Descent’ how Admiral Nechayev fed picard a bowl of shit for not deploing a virus that might have caused the genocide of the Borg?

  Remember ‘The Pegasus’ where we learned that an admiral was trying to recover a lost Starfleet ship that could cloak, in blatant violation of their treaty with another galactic power?

  Remember how in ‘Journey’s End’ the Enterprise is tasked with the forced relocation of Federation citizens to appease a fascist state, and then when those citizens refuse to be relocated, the Federation chooses to abandon them?

  Remember how Admiral Nechayev ordered the Enterprise to aid a fascist state in rooting out the freedom fighters opposing their occupation of territory that used to belong to the Federation?

  Remember ‘Captain Pursuit’ where Sisko is willing to release a sentient being who is being hunted for sport to his hunters?

  Remember how often Sisko was opposed to the actions of freedom fighters working against the fascist state occupying their homes, beginning with ‘The Maquis’?

  Remember ‘Homefront’ and ‘Paradise Lost’ when the Federation implemented martial law on Earth, including mandatory random blood screening of its citizens?

  Remember when terrorist organization tried to implement their conservative ideals on a resort planet, and Worf joined them, and then saw no repercussions for doing so in ‘Let He Who is Without Sin…’?

  Remember in ‘For the Uniform’ how Sisko used biological weapons against freedom fighters resisting a fascist occupation of their homes?

  Remember how in ‘Inquistion’ we learned about Section 31, an secret organization within Starfleet intelligence that exists to carry out Starfleet’s dirty business?

  Remember when Sisko used a former intelligence operative from a fascist state to trick a different fascist state into joining a war effort in, ‘In the Pale Moonlight’?

  Remember ‘The Seige of AR-558’ where we see Starfleet officers committing war crimes, and collecting trophies off the bodies of fallen enemies soldiers?

  Remember how in ‘When it Rains…’ we learned that Section 31 infected Odo with a biological weapon to kill the Changelings, and in ‘Extreme Measures’ that the Federation Council refused to provide a cure, even after one had been created?

  Remember when Worf assissinated a foreign head of state in ‘Tacking Into the Wind’ at Sisko’s implied behest, and faced no consequences for doing so?

  Remember how Janeway murdered a being, who had commited no crime and had been explicitly stated as being helpful to the crew, as he begged for his life in ‘Tuvix’?

  Remember in ‘Nothing Human’ when we learned that the Voyager database includes the works and psychological profile a fascist scisentist whose research involved committing atrocities on the population of a planet his people had occupied and forced into labour?

  Remember when Tom Paris was senstanced to solitary confinement on the bridge by Janeay, an act that is currently considered cruel and unusual punishment, in ‘Thirty Days’?

  Remember ‘Equinox’ where we learn a Starfleet crew has been knowingly capturing and murdering sentient lifeforms to fuel their ship?

  Remember how in ‘Shadows of P’Jem’ we found out that the Vulcans maintained a long range listening outpost under a site they declared sacred to their culture?

  Remember in ‘Cogenitor’ when Archer refused to grant asylum to an alien being who was kept in sexual slavery?

  Remember when Archer tortures someone for information in ‘Anomaly’?

  Remember in ‘Damage’ when Archer orders the NX-01 crew to board an alien ship and steal vital components of their warp drive, leaving those beings stranded in a hostile and dangerous region of space?

  Remember ‘Kir’Shara’ where we saw Shran torture Soval to assess the truth of informaiton he was being given?

  Remember in ‘Bound’ how Archer accepted a gift of three slaves?

  Remember ‘Star Trek: Insurrection’ where the Federation was allied with a state that keeps slaves, and agreed to force relocate a population so they could gain access to the resources of that people’s planet?

  source
• Tollana1234567@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

  nutrek is pretty bad so its seems to be kurtzman agenda for the franchise.

  source
• j4yc33@piefed.social ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  The people in the image aren’t even members of the Federation… they’re Torathan, it’s explicitly stated, by Chancellor Ake, that the Federation has an agreement with them that would allow Mir to be released to their custody.

  The Burn did a lot of crazy things to the Federation, and one of the lessons explicitly stated in the next episodes is that the Academy is back to teach these cadets how to be better. There was some backsliding during the Burn and everyone is trying to get better again.

  The Pirate (Nus Braka) given the sentence was a pirate who was killing Starfleet officers. The mother (Anisha Mir) was sentenced to time in a rehab colony with visitation rights. Rehabilitation implying the sentence is not a life long sentence. Both of them were, ultimately, involved with the death of an officer. It wasn’t a “Drumhead” type trial, there was no witch hunting the innocent here: Two people involved with a theft that ended with the death of a Starfleet officer were tried and convicted of crimes; one of them is known to be a member of a dangerous criminal organization.

  Picard once left Tim Russ’s character poisoned to die in a Baryon sweep for stealing Trilithium Resin. Star Trek was never super perfect when dramatic effect is involved.

  source

  • Lemmchen@feddit.org ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    This right here. The only way you can end up with OP’s opinion after watching the first episode is when you don’t pay attention at all.

    source

    • Kirk@startrek.website ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Honestly, all of the new bucket of frequently parroted opinions only make sense if you don’t pay attention. I saw one recently calling SFA “edgy teenage drama with bullying”. “Edgy” is the furthest thing from what SFA is. It’s the biggest let’s-work-together-and-support-our-friends piece of media I might have ever seen. It’s comfort food.

      It’s nothing new sadly, and the one I always circle back to is Adira’s coming out scene. It’s literally ten seconds long and never discussed again. But over and over again you’ll (still!) see comments describing “a long story arc” and how Discovery writers are “obsessed with gender”.

      I have to assume these people go straight from the ragebait youtubers to reddit/lemmy comments without ever stopping to watch the show.

      source
    • Chemo@feddit.org ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Quite on point. As you can clearly read from my message, I stopped after 10 minutes.

      source

      • -> View More Comments
  • Chemo@feddit.org ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Rehabilitation implying the sentence is not a life long sentence.

    I was talking about the sentence for Nus Braka. Maybe I’m just a crazy communist but in my depiction of a better world society knows better ways to deal with criminals then to just lock them up.

    It wasn’t a “Drumhead” type trial I don’t know what your perspective on fair trials is, but a single judge rushing into the chambers, asking the felon 2 questions and immediately declaring the sentence. No attorneys, no hearing. That’s some North Korean shit.

    source

    • lemmyng@piefed.ca ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I don’t know what your perspective on fair trials is, but a single judge rushing into the chambers, asking the felon 2 questions and immediately declaring the sentence. No attorneys, no hearing. That’s some North Korean shit.

      It was pretty obvious from the first 5 minutes that this was not a short trial, and that what we see is not the full trial but the final veredict hearing. There’s even mention of the captain vying to lower the mother’s sentence.

      source
    • j4yc33@piefed.social ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I was talking about the sentence for Nus Braka. Maybe I’m just a crazy communist but in my depiction of a better world society knows better ways to deal with criminals then to just lock them up.

      They only say it was a Penal Colony. Maybe they marooned him on Ceti Alpha V… or put him next to Tom Paris or Kassidy Yates in a Penal Colony with an ankle monitor. The Vulcans might have put him in Ankesthan K’til with T’Pring’s prisoners. Who knows.

      I don’t know what your perspective on fair trials is, but a single judge rushing into the chambers, asking the felon 2 questions and immediately declaring the sentence.

      First, Court Martials are held to a different standard than civilian courts. I don’t necessarily agree with that, but it is a fact. Second, your take is implying that we saw the whole trial and not just the sentencing. I guess when Anisha Mir claims “You said you would help me!” to Chancellor/Captain Ake (who then explains that getting the sentenced reduced was helping), we’re all just supposed to guess she hallucinated something and not that there was more to the trial than what we saw?

      Drumhead was about hunting specters that aren’t there. It was about reducing everyone’s freedoms because of nebulous claims of national security. This isn’t what we see here. There were no false claims of injustice, there was a tangible crime that had been committed.

      source

      • -> View More Comments
    • ValueSubtracted@startrek.website ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      There’s a difference between a trial and a sentencing.

      source
  • Grail@multiverse.soulism.net ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Cold take: Mum Mir did not commit any crime and could not rightfully be sentenced to any kind of rehabilitation.

    source

    • j4yc33@piefed.social ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      It is implied that her biggest crime was being given stolen food. But that goes back to Star Trek often being less than perfect when it comes to driving dramatic effect.

      source

      • -> View More Comments
  • atomicbocks@sh.itjust.works ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Picard didn’t leave him to die, he expected the ringleader to let him go back for the dude but she didn’t. The point of the scene was to show that she was an asshole not that Picard was heartless.

    source
• ValueSubtracted@startrek.website ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I think it’s extremely disingenuous to equate “bad things happening sometimes” with “dystopia.”

  The point of everything you mentioned (except for the police in '09, which you don’t actually seem to have an issue with aside from the fact that they exist?) is that these things can be overcome, which is precisely the opposite of a dystopian setting.

  source

  • Kirk@startrek.website ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I’d also like to highlight that the Federation is never described in-universe as a Utopia (the only example that comes to mind is Pelia sarcastically describing Earth specifically as a “no money, socialist utopia”).

    And speaking candidly, since the TOS days the messaging has always kinda been that “Utopia” is about the journey more than the destination.

    source

    • ValueSubtracted@startrek.website ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Yeah, someone summed it up very well elsewhere in the thread: “utopia” describes an ideal to strive toward, but is inherently unachievable, if only because you will never find two people who have the same utopic vision.

      Unless “utopia” includes some sort of system for forcing everyone to think alike… 🤔

      source

      • -> View More Comments
  • Grail@multiverse.soulism.net ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    To be fair I also have a problem with the fact the police exist

    source

    • ValueSubtracted@startrek.website ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I certainly am not a fan of policework as it is currently, commonly conducted, but I have a hard time imagining a society that has laws, but doesn’t have a dedicated system to uphold those laws that involves some kind of police.

      source

      • -> View More Comments
    • justOnePersistentKbinPlease@fedia.io ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      You realize that for millenia, philosophers fantasized about the concept of a police force that existed just to enforce laws, and not just be military guards?

      The issue is not the concept of police. It is the leadership and the police unions.

      source
    • otter@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Preach it, citizen.

      … Oh. You meant in Star Trek.

      source

      • -> View More Comments
• HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  It technically goes back to Roddenberry.

  First, Roddenberry still wrote the Federation as having some faults. A major plot point in Star Trek VI is that Starfleet is attempting a coup of the Federation to keep the cold war going. In early TNG, the Federation is seen as entertaining thing Data’s rights and allows a Federation colony to deteriorate to the level of drug wars.

  Roddenberry had also written a treatment for a post-Federation time where a Federation ship goes into the future and rebuilds the Federation from scratch. That show became Andromeda, but the concept ended up being used in Discovery and Starfleet Academy.

  source

  • T156@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    In early TNG, the Federation is seen as entertaining ending Data’s rights and allows a Federation colony to deteriorate to the level of drug wars.

    There’s honestly a good argument that Data arguably had none at all. His status was automatically changed to “property/salvage” the moment that he exercised his rights in a manner that Starfleet found inconvenient, by not wanting to be irreversibly dismantled.

    The Enterprise might have treated him as a person, but they were unusual amongst Starfleet for doing so. We know later on, that the Sutherland considered him to be little more than a legged computer, and nearly mutinied against him because they interpreted all his actions in that light. Considering Data’s storied history of serving in Starfleet without having the support of personhood the Enterprise crew gave him, it would not be at all surprising if the Sutherland’s attitude was the norm, and the Enterprise was unusually accepting, on account of being the best and brightest of Starfleet.

    source
• haverholm@kbin.earth ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I stopped watching Discovery after the first episode

  watching the first 10 minutes of Starfleet Academy makes me want to bury the whole franchise

  These are shows that historically have taken a couple of seasons to grow their beard, and you're judging them on (parts of) their pilots? Maybe you're just not as much into Star Trek as you think.

  source
• Grail@multiverse.soulism.net ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Those thugs beating up Caleb Mir are not Federation. They work for the something or other empire. The judge who sentenced Caleb’s mum resigned from Starfleet the next day, saying it was the worst mistake of her career and she can no longer work for an organisation that expects her to do things like that. 20 years later, Starfleet admits she was right, and offers her a job as Chancellor at Starfleet Academy, teaching the next generation to be better than the last one.

  source

  • j4yc33@piefed.social ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    👆

    source
• MadMadBunny@lemmy.ca ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  So, you jumped on the conclusion that you don’t like any recent Star Trek series, even though you didn’t even try listening more than one episode of each—while remaining fully biased, yet you insist on criticizing every decision based one whatever you assume all these new series are about, and shit on them, hoping to reinforce your opinion about them.

  This is what you sound like: “Huh, so, I opened the book, read the first sentence of the preface, didn’t hook me, so fuck it didn’t read it at all, but let me tell you all how this book is so bad and doesn’t explain anything about what they claim to do, and how they should stick to writing then exactly how they did 60 years ago, just like my grandma used to…”

  Do you truly want the answers you claim to seek?

  Then how about you actually attentively listen to those entire series in full. You’d be surprised how they might give you more answers than you could possibly imagine.

  Stop wasting our time. You want to criticize the new series, at least have the decency to actually watch them first.

  source

  • Chemo@feddit.org ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    So, you jumped on the conclusion that you don’t like any recent Star Trek series

    Not at all. I love Lower Decks and Strange New Worlds.

    yet you insist on criticizing every decision

    I am not criticizing “a decision”, I am criticizing a trend.

    so fuck it didn’t read it at all

    Which would be very wise, because otherwise I would waste even more of my time.

    Do you truly want the answers you claim to seek?

    Yes, because that would help me to decide if I am just wasting my time, continuing with the show. But thank, other, kinder people have already been much more helpful then you.

    source
• Skunk@jlai.lu ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Tbh Starfleet Academy makes a U turn on that decision the minute after, explaining that because of the war/burn they were jerks but they regret it and try to make amends bla bla bla.

  Academy gave me this utopia feeling, but in 2026 it made me more depressed than hopeful as I finally realized that I will never find a Starfleet Academy on our world, aka a bunch of peoples working together to make humanity a better whatever if their skin is pink or they believe in the giant flying spaghetti monster.

  source

  • Chemo@feddit.org ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Thank you. That gives me hope I can enjoy the show. But I still don’t get the necessity to turn the federation into a dystopian shithole even for a short time.

    source
  • Grail@multiverse.soulism.net ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I didn’t discover Star Trek until I was an adult. When I was a kid, the series that made Me want to be part of a galactic community was Ben 10. I’m really hoping one day they make a Plumbers prequel spinoff for adults. Every year the chance of such a wonder grows fainter. I was only inspired by the similar visions of coexistence in Star Trek as an adult, around the same time I was already becoming an astral adventurer and having My own Starfleet experiences.

    source
  • Grail@multiverse.soulism.net ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I have good news for you. I’m a goddess from beyond reality in a polyamorous relationship with a sharkplane and a ghost. I’m friends with Shadow the Hedgehog and Spider-Woman. How is all this possible? It’s because I decided consensus reality is bourgeois and went and found some other weirdos who agree with Me. We’re called anarcho-antirealists, or soulists if you want a short name. We have our own PieFed instance called MULTIVERSE, and a manifesto at https://soulism.net. I journey across the astral plane and Discord finding fantasy creatures and aliens to heal and befriend. I’m living the life I dreamed about since I was a kid watching Ben 10, and you can too.

    source

    • gibmiser@lemmy.world ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Ew

      source

      • -> View More Comments
• JessyKenning@lemmy.world ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  ok, to give it a fair shake.

  At the time of the start of Starfleet Academy the Federation and Starfleet don’t really exist. They are indeed a mockery of their own ideals. It’s the baseline for just how crappy the universe got. Shit was bad man. Academy sets this up so you understand what’s at stake as they try to rebuild the Federation and Starfleet to bring hope back.

  It is a Star Trek college show. It introduces us to some kids, the future of this show’s setting. But there is an underlying message of hope and getting back to the better way.

  I am neither endorsing nor criticizing the show. I’m trying to answer your point.

  source
• Sertou@lemmy.world ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Because from a literary and media standpoint, utopias are boring. The Federation has never been a utopia. It is a post scarcity society with utopian ideals, but with plenty of flaws to balance out those ideals. In the TOS era, those flaws included penal colonies, the death penalty, albeit for only one crime, contacting Talos IV and lots of infighting among member worlds.

  Without conflict, there is no drama. Star Trek has long found conflict in pitting the Federation against less high-minded adversaries, the Klingons and Romulans, the Borg, the Cardassians and the Dominion, the Kazon, etc. That is fine but after 60 years it is also sort of played out.

  To your point about Discovery, it’s first season took place before the Federation’s ideals were fully codified in policy - general order 1 had yet to become “the prime directive” for example.

  TNG trek took place later and was closer to the utopian ideal. But still wasn’t perfect. The Federation tried to force Data to undergo study as a guinea pig and tried to take his daughter from him for the same reason, they supported unaligned worlds against internal dissent and left untold numbers of Federation citizens to the mercy of the Cardassians in the interest of keeping the peace.

  During the Dominion War, the Federation was fine with setting aside it’s ideals as a matter of survival.

  During the burn, the federation no longer had the resources to support it’s high ideals so it shrank and degenerated. Now. It is on the ascendant again, able to right past wrongs.

  source

  • JustTesting@lemmy.hogru.ch ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I think there’s still a lot of room to explore without abandoning the utopia setting. like we usually only see the spaceship stuff, but what about a more political drama taking place on member worlds, that kind of thing, i think it could be amazing.

    also, as you say, it’s been done for 60 years. Might as well do the same thing over again for a new generation that hasn’t seen tos/tng/ds9. They don’t know it yet, so it’s not overused, and the TOS audience wouldn’t be the target audience anyways. and could still explore new topics. the audience isn’t the same, our world isn’t the same, making the same show again would still not be boring as it be a completely different thing.

    Both approaches can work imo and have a place, without the need to go more dystopia.

    source

    • Sertou@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      My point is that there never was a utopian setting. Utopia’s are perfect by definition and therefore boring. The Federation is something much more interesting than a utopia. It’s an imperfect culture that aspires to better itself in the attempt to achieve utopian ideals. That it fails and tries again is part of what makes Star Trek interesting.

      source
• mvirts@lemmy.world ⁨16⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Because the federation changes over time, there are good times and bad. One of the core values in many Star Trek stories is redemption through change, it’s the central idea of this one.

  Also because the federation is an allegory for whatever real world good guy alliance you believe in and fascist elements coming and going from the federation are a commentary on the real world.

  source
• Skullgrid@lemmy.world ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  It’s been happening for a while; they keep wanting to make it “darker and edgier” which started with some episodes of TNG (The pegasus) and just kept getting worse (deep space 9).

  During TOS, things were not exactly properly utopian either, but I haven’t watched enough to comment properly.

  source

  • skribe@piefed.social ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Undiscovered Country was considered too militant by Roddenberry. IIRC Nimoy agreed, but only decades later.

    The problem for Star Trek is that utopias are hard to write (they’re considered boring or to cerebral for TV) and are usually reliant on external forces for their conflict. TOS was full of episodes where ‘the other’ upset the utopian balance. While I love/prefer TOS, younger audiences tend to find the episodes unsatisfying, even twee.

    Since TNG, conflict has come more and more from within Star Fleet/Federation rather than the monster of the week. That inevitably leads down a darker/dystopian path.

    source

    • Skullgrid@lemmy.world ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      TOS was full of episodes where ‘the other’ upset the utopian balance. While I love/prefer TOS, younger audiences tend to find the episodes unsatisfying, even twee.

      Since TNG, conflict has come more and more from within Star Fleet/Federation rather than the monster/planet of the week.

      My favorite episodes are the ones where there is some sci-fi problem, and they try to fix the issue. Or they have to mediate some problem with some aliens based on some pragmatic problem. They get presented with some moral dilemmas, and act in a moral way, and go somewhere else.

      There’s no need to lie to romulans, bomb planets, etc.

      source

      • -> View More Comments
• RamenJunkie@midwest.social ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I mean, that point about seperating a mother and child, kind of forms the entire basis of the show as its what drive Captain Ake to come head the new Starfleet Academy. She feels like complete shit that it happened and wants Starfleet to be better in its rebirth.

  And technically, Academy IS a “dystpian setting” because they had the galaxy wide apocalypse event that was The Burn that obliterated every warp drive and collapsed everything but it sounds like you didn’t watch Discovery so you may have missed that.

  source
• GenderNeutralBro@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Some drumhead court-martial, lifelong prison sentence, violently separating a mother from her child and some goons beating up a prisoner

  The key point here is that it is portrayed as horrible. Ake resigned in protest and only came back for the opportunity to make amends. The scene is there to show how far the Federation has fallen, in order to set up the task of rebuilding it.

  Starfleet Academy has a justification for how shitty the world is, and IMHO it’s approaching it correctly. There was a galactic disaster that almost completely destroyed the federation, so SFA is literally post-apocalyptic. But it’s using that setting to tell a hopeful and positive story.

  The core message of the show is that you can rebuild a just society even after it’s gone so far down the shitter. You can choose to do better, to be better. This is culturally relevant.

  source
• FaeriesWearBoots@sopuli.xyz ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  The whole separating the child from the mother is turned in the first episode, and that tension creates character motivation in both the child and the captain who carries it out. Who admits on screen later that episode that it was a huge mistake and it’s why she leaves Starfleet for 20 years. At the period in time that the separation happens the federation has pretty much fallen apart because of the burn (due to some unexplained physics phenomenon warp technology failed over a hundred years earlier). So yeah it may seem like the federation was a utopia by our standards, but it was really a demonstration of a cooperative rather than competitive future (Communism v. Capitalism). And even in that future nothing is perfect, shit happens, you have to deal with it and do the hard work of building strong community.

  One of the most central lessons of the whole franchise is sumed up in the kobyoshi maru, a test from the 22-2300s era of trek that is a literal unwinnable scenario. The lesson: it possible to make no mistakes and still lose. Pick yourself up and do your best.

  source

  • FaeriesWearBoots@sopuli.xyz ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Academy as about building back those ideals, structures, treaties, etc. that made ST feel like a utopia. It takes work to over come the prejudices, animosity, and bad habits of generational trauma and backwards thinking. Regardless of whether the show ends up being good, I can’t think of many messages that we today need to see demonstrated more clearly.

    Episodes 4 and 5 of Academy are the best so far (5 is most current at time of writing).

    source
• givesomefucks@lemmy.world ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Not a big trekie, but I never trusted the “Earth is a giant utopia and everything is perfect” story

  Like, I’m sure there’s a class of people most of Starfleet is made up of like Picard, but not everyone on earth owns a fucking vineyard.

  I always thought The Expanse was probably how it really was. No one “has to work” because there’s not enough work. So the majority of the population gets a little UBI and blows it on drugs and alcohol to numb the emptiness

  Like, do they even show “current earth” that much in Star Trek? Or is it just wealthy Starfleet members talking about how awesome their lives were?

  I dunno, it’s just an unbelievable story. If it’s really supposed to be a perfect utopia, it’s just unbelievable writing.

  source

  • Stern@lemmy.world ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I always figured that some folks are writing, reading, arting, or farminf, and then theres dudes using the replicator to make dank space weed or the holodeck to get blowie joeys from helen of troy.

    source

    • givesomefucks@lemmy.world ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I legitimately don’t know:

      But would just every random human have access to a replicator 24/7?

      Like, that would be a tally in the Utopia column, but even then, the amount of waste and trash produced would be a problem.

      Even in an absolutely ideal situation like that, it would end like The Good Place where getting anything you want burns out your dopamine system.

      I dunno. Like I said I’m not a Star Trek expert, I just don’t trust a bunch of rich people working for the one world government telling us the 99.99% of humans we never see are living perfect lives.

      It’s fictional so it could be real if the writers want it to be. But it’s a lot more realistic if not everything was as perfect as we’re told, or even Starfleet officers believe.

      source

      • -> View More Comments
  • lath@lemmy.world ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    A lot of stuff is insinuated. Such as there’s no overpopulation issue on Earth due in part to WW3 which decimated it globally and in part due to a lot of groups leaving to create their own colonies, with their own local rules.

    Far as I remember, which may be wrong, people on Trek Earth live more freely and more spread out. The Picard vineyard is an example of doing something because you want to and at the same time, continuation of the family tradition.

    But freedom doesn’t mean automatic success. Humans are still humans. We have our emotions and a state of mind which changes with the weather.

    Trek Earth guarantees a standard of living, but it cannot guarantee happiness.

    source
  • kboos1@lemmy.world ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    A utopia will never exist because a utopia implies that everyone and everything is perfect, but this will never happen because human instinct and diversity won’t allow it. In Star Trek this utopia was started after WW3 followed by massive genocide followed by people just trying to survive. So there was a hard reset for humanity.

    For Picard’s vineyard, it’s a family legacy and heirloom, so he gets a pass. But if you want your own vineyard and there’s enough land then you get one.

    Here’s where Star Trek kind of falls apart, someone has to mine the raw resources that can’t be replicated or do menial tasks that no one would want to do even 200 years from now. How does that work? If the work you do still equates to social ranking and resource allocation then does the steel worker also get prime real estate next to the president of the federation?

    I love Star Trek but it’s just a dream that will never exist, the idea of Star Trek could never exist just based on the simple fact of the fans can’t even agree on what it is. To me it’s Sci-fi adventures in a world where people can be open about who they are but also none threatened or threatening about it, where everyone works together to accomplish a goal, where doing what you love is payment enough.

    source

    • Kirk@startrek.website ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Well written. Earth’s utopia seems to exist (or not) as is relevant to the plot at hand. But if there is one thing Star Trek drills into it’s messaging over and over and over again, it’s that the work, the brutally difficult work to get one centimeter closer to that “impossible” utopia is what motivates starfleet.

      source
    • givesomefucks@lemmy.world ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      For Picard’s vineyard, it’s a family legacy and heirloom, so he gets a pass.

      And so do all of his descendants who inherit it in perpetuality

      An unchanging social structure with no means for mobility.

      Either your family was rich enough to own land centuries ago, or you never will be.

      Utopia!

      /s

      But if you want your own vineyard and there’s enough land then you get one.

      And then your descendants always get it because it’s a family legacy and heirloom…

      So even if there’s “open land” it’s going to run out eventually.

      source

      • -> View More Comments
  • Chemo@feddit.org ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I get you. Utopia does’t seem very probable. But it was nice to have at least one single franchise that commits to it.

    but not everyone on earth owns a fucking vineyard

    That’s the very reason I don’t like the Picard show as well. No one is supposed to own a vineyardfor themselves in Star Trek Earth. DS9 did a good depiction of life on earth with Benjamin Siskos dad who just loves cooking and provides a restaurant for everyone.

    source

    • Grail@multiverse.soulism.net ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      In the 24th century, wine isn’t a lucrative business venture. It’s an ancient cultural tradition. Chateau Picard is a heritage location placed by the government in the custody of the Picard family, as long as they continue to teach the ancient art of winemaking. It’s not for them, it’s for everyone.

      I haven’t seen Picard.

      source

      • -> View More Comments
    • Zorque@lemmy.world ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      His family has had vineyards for generations. Why wouldn’t they be allowed to? Space isnt exactly a luxury since they have dozens of worlds you can move to and have your own.

      Keep in mind the “Gay Space Communism” isnt the soviet dictatorship kind where everyone is allotted their resources and you’re only allowed to do what the state says. Its a post-scarcity world where people can follow passions and personal drive just because they want to. (As long as you learn calculus) Something explicitly stated multiple times in the series.

      They have the luxury of the philosophy of improving one’s self and the environment for others.

      source
  • Skunk@jlai.lu ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I also think “normal non working” people on earth are closer to The Expanse depiction rather than perfect utopia.

    Nothing is perfect, I like calling that a “normaltopia”. The federation might not always succeed at being an utopia but at fucking least they are trying.

    source
• kbal@fedia.io ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  How in the hell is this the same federation of TNG, Voyager and DS9?

  Clearly it isn't. Why should it be? It's the far future. Giant prison colony, shock collars, cruelty, punishment with no semblance of a fair trial on screen; clearly the Federation are the bad guys now, or at least adjacent to them. I was prepared to accept that premise. Could be interesting... but no, they immediately shove that concept under the carpet and pretend it doesn't matter because this one person involved feels really bad about it. It was all just another convenient plot device with no meaning, and they moved right on without stopping to think about it. It's utterly lazy writing, the kind where they go with whatever half-baked idea they come up with first whether or not it makes any sense for the characters and story. I say that with confidence because I've seen so much of it before. In this case the character they betrayed was literally Star Trek itself, but they're doing it all the time in smaller ways.

  Anyway I'm off to rewatch DS9 instead.

  source
• BoxOfFeet@lemmy.world ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  If you pretend Star Trek stopped after First Contact, it’s a lot better. I really don’t understand why they keep trying to make new trek, or who is watching it. Who is it for? It’s too fast, too action-y. Too many camera angles. The writing and acting feels like teen drama. Where is the professionalism, the decorum, the reserved nature of Starfleet? And what little humor there should be, should be dry.

  source
• ragingHungryPanda@piefed.keyboardvagabond.com ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  have you seen the animated Lower Decks series? I love it.

  but yeah, a lot for newer star trek stuff I don’t think was written by people intending to follow the series

  source

  • Tollana1234567@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

    lower decks and prodigy were way better than the other ones.

    source
  • Chemo@feddit.org ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Right! Totally forgot about Lower Decks. Awesome!

    source
• atomicbocks@sh.itjust.works ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Thanks for the warning. Any show that continues Discovery’s bullshit isn’t going to be worth a watch in my opinion.

  source

  • Tollana1234567@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

    Picard tries to copy STD anf fix some of the bs, but it falls flat hard, snw tries to do that but the actors are so wooden and writing is not good at all.

    source
• kboos1@lemmy.world ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  DISC did a lot of bad things to Trek just for shock value. But in a utopia there still has to be rules, Burnham committed probably the worst crime in the Trek universe, she disobeyed a direct order, started a mutiny and opened fire on an alien ship, which started a war killing millions. The only reason she got out of prison was because her boyfriend from an evil universe broke her out of prison under false pretenses hoping that since she started a war in this universe that she was just as evil as her counterpart. How messed up is that? Then her redeeming moment is she seized command of the ship and starts a civil war and threatens to blow up another species home world to end the war she started. That’s some cowboy shit right there. All because he has unresolved child hood trauma. She deserved to got to federation vacation colony for life.

  Kelvinverse would have been great as a big budget sci-fi franchise if it wasn’t set in the Trek universe. You can pretty much ignore Kelvinverse movies and pretend that it was just a fun experiment.

  SFA and SNW are just trying to undo the mistakes of DISC.

  PIC got a lot of things wrong but shared trauma from an unprovoked attack by the Romulans hacking Androids and forcing them to attack people would trigger mass panic and fear that it could happen again, I don’t think that’s far fetched.

  source

  • Tollana1234567@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

    i feel like snw still suffer from the legacy of picard and disc too much. being run by the same showrunner.

    source
  • Kirk@startrek.website ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    The “this specific person (who happens to be a woman and black but that has nothing to do with it I swear) must be punished for being a naughty bad girl” fantasies always make me super uncomfortable BUT it’s nice to see someone not calling Burhnam an overly perfect Mary Sue for once.

    source

    • kboos1@lemmy.world ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Do people fantasize about that? I would think that the writers and show runners should get the flak for DISC, that was a terrible redemption story, “The only why to stop this war, is more war”, like wtf were they thinking?

      List of captain’s major misdeeds from the top of my head-

      Sisko was accomplice to murder and many war crimes by his crew. Didn’t go to jail and actually became a god.

      Can’t think of any serious crimes Picard committed and got away with. There were a couple times he disobeyed orders but it was usually to save or protect someone or something, and that was few and far between.

      Janeway broke the prime directive every Tuesday, except when she was stopping someone else from breaking it.

      Kirk broke the temporal prime directive and the regular prime directive, routinely disobeyed orders, stole the enterprise, and wasn’t afraid to step into some morally gray areas. He got positive results, so he got demoted and promoted and demoted and got promoted to desk duty.

      Pike hasn’t really stepped out of line except when he help DISC escape the rogue AI thing and breaking the temporal prime directive.

      Archer was stubbling into trouble by mistake and there weren’t really any rules for him to break but I can’t think of any major crimes.

      Freeman wasn’t really onscreen much but she doesn’t seem to be the start a mutiny, shoot first and start an galaxy wide war type.

      Worf would never dishonor federation or his family.

      Riker wasn’t on screen much but he does seem like he would get into some trouble, although when he was #1 he doesn’t seem like the mutiny and start wars type either.

      source
• Dyskolos@lemmy.zip ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I resent it too. Everything new trek is just star wars western action in space spiced with pure emotions dipped in dystopian.

  And the only good thing about DSC (besides saru or what he was named) was bringing us SNW, which is surprisingly good and pike is great.

  source
• gustofwind@lemmy.world ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Star Trek is just a media product now run by business people trying to make it appealing to mass audiences

  Besides the awful plots and settings the writing and acting is horrific and as far as I’m concerned Star trek is over and academy is just fanfiction slop

  source

  • Tollana1234567@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

    nutrek is mostly jj abrams and his successor kurtzman or another, they said it themselves they dont care about the CONTINUITY Of trek, thats why the series are so bad.

    source
• DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Because of reply guys

  source
• YaDownWitCPP@lemmy.world ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  Not a big fan of Star Trek I see.

  source

  • j4yc33@piefed.social ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    No one hates Star Trek more than Star Trek fans.

    source
• DagwoodIII@piefed.social ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  I don’t follow Trek as much as I used to.

  I’d guess that the problem is that it’s hard to come up with stories in a happy world where everyone gets to choose their own path.

  source

  • Chemo@feddit.org ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Fair point. That’s why Star Trek shows usually don’t play at the federation but on far away planets.

    source
  • Kirk@startrek.website ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Fortunately it’s a big galaxy

    source