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Comments

• SportsRulesOpinions@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  The Israel and Palestine situation is way too complicated to be left to “I support Israel.” Support in what way? Their existence? Their military campaigns? Their government? Their settlements? Everything they’ve ever done ever?

  Do you then oppose everything done by people from Palestine? Do you then oppose the existence of Palestine?

  In my opinion it’s not okay to leave your opinion as that simple. If that’s all you’ve got your opinion is bad because it’s simplistic, not because it supports a particular side.

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  • Gorgeous_Sloth@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    People supporting a side like it’s a bloody football match

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  • StupidQuestionGuy@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    [deleted]

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    • breadsmasher@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Just as something to think about, would you support the nazi and soviet campaign into poland, and the land they won from that?

      Or the british empire winning land all over the globe?

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    • mxl@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Maybe think if by the same logic you also support Russia’s “ownership” of Crimea and Eastern Ukranine territory. If you don’t support that, then maybe you’ve been propaganded.

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    • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Uh... Since you seem new to the topic, I'd recommend you look up Israeli treatment of Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, East Palestine and Israel proper (they're all bad for different reasons, but the order of badness goes like this), and how the settlement process works. Note: It usually involves Palestinians being forced off their homes.

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• fkn@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  This is a hard question.

  Israel was magicked into existence not very long ago(1948), immediately started breaking agreements and compacts… Displaced millions of people from their homes and has killed thousands upon thousands more… Many innocents. It is run by an extremist religious military organization.

  Hamas is a brutal, far right religious extremist movement that kills indiscriminately, even it’s own people.

  Objectively they are both in the wrong.

  Israel has stolen and murdered the Palestinian land and people for decades while continuously lying about their intentions.

  Hamas is a shit show of an organization that is probably objectively worse… But their actions make sense when you realize that their families and property have been stolen when murdered for the last several generations. The only life most Palestine people know is one of suffering and loss… And this is directly Israels fault.

  In your Russia/Ukraine scenario, Israel is Russia (mostly foreign invaders) and Ukraine is Palestine(natives fighting for their land and freedom). But it’s not quite as simple because Hamas is so objectively horrible…

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  • Delphia@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Allow me to preface this by saying that I think both sides act like enormous cunts at times and I am also eternally grateful that it is not my life.

    The only problem I have with the “Its Palestinian land” argument is that 1948 was 75 years ago. Its very important to the macro view of the sutuation but do you think a 3rd generation Israeli born citizen who is now strapping up his body armor to fight so that people stop trying to kill his family gives much of a fuck about how young his country is? Or who traditionally owned the land? Its his town, his city, his little brother who was just kidnapped.

    I dont think anyone seriously thinks if Israel gave Hamas/Palestine the whole west bank, no more arguments about borders, leaving the settlements alone and trying to make peace that Hamas would become all about peace, hugs and understanding.

    I think its absolutely impossible to defend either side with a straight face. Ask both of them about the worst 10 things the other side did and both of them are monsters.

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    • drekly@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      But surely that person has to appreciate that it’s only happening because his country is killing and stealing the land of another and has been for 75 years, and has essentially kettled them into a literal corner with giant walls and no escape where they have to rely on aid to survive, while killing huge amounts more of their people.

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    • VentraSqwal@links.dartboard.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      On the other hand, that is within a human lifetime and they’re still expanding their settlements today. It’s not like the bad stuff just happened to people 75 years ago then stopped.

      But I wish Israel didn’t help create Hamas. It would be much preferable for a more secular force to help Palestinians that I could put my support in. No one wants to support terrorists, but now Hamas is basically their only option, which sucks. I don’t even like reading about the stuff over there now, it’s all sad and there’s no good solution.

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    • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      I know it was difficult to move a bunch of ethnic Jews to Israel to begin with, but I don’t see why it would be any more or less difficult to move them away in some sort of gigantic humanitarian effort to give the land back to Palestine now. It is equally as ridiculous now as it would have been back then.

      Why not as an international community just guarantee a spot anywhere on the planet effectively for people to move out of Israel and into a country of their choice and give the land back most importantly.

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  • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Israel was magicked into existence not very long ago(1948), immediately started breaking agreements and compacts

    This is not really an accurate portrayal of events. Literally on the day that Israel was founded, Egypt, Transjordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen launched an invasion - for those keeping score at home, that’s all of their neighbors at the time, plus some of the larger countries in the region. This immediate and unflinching antagonism - very specifically on the heels of Jewish people being subjected to the Holocaust, and in combination with rhetoric from their neighbors calling for “the eradication of Israel” - seems to have largely set the tone of Israeli-Arab relations since then, and Israel has fought more than one existential conflict against its neighbors since then.

    Now, I’m not saying Israel is blameless here, nor am I saying that the UK/UN was blameless in arbitrarily drawing some lines on a map in a very geopolitically fraught area. But I do find the narrative that Israel

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    • fkn@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      That is a fair critique. Israel isn’t solely at fault, but they do share blame. It’s difficult to fit the entirety of the history, but from the Palestinian point of view what I said isn’t wrong. There may be confounding external causes, but Israel has absolutely been in the wrong from nearly the beginning of its existence.

      There are arguments about preventing genocide that are valid, but most of these arguments start from racist ethnostate positions that have very little moral credibility.

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  • S_204@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    How on earth do you claim Israel immediately started ‘breaking agreements’ when they were attacked on multiple fronts as soon as they became a country?

    That’s some wild revisionist history.

    Israel not only defended themselves but took land in the war. They then returned that land later on as a gesture of goodwill. Only to be attacked again and again…

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  • StupidQuestionGuy@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    [deleted]

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    • fkn@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      The British fucked up a bunch of things when they divided up political power as they abandoned their territories… Israel/Palestine and India/Pakistan…

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    • otter@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      I dont wanted to spark such a huge Discussion

      Discussion can be good, it’s how we can all learn more :)

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    • pinchcramp@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      I think with a topic like this, you can’t NOT spark a huge discussion. I hope you still got some useful answers out of it :)

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    • FuglyDuck@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      It’s perfectly acceptable to support civilians, and support peace- we can and should be critical of the Israeli government and Hamas- both have inflicted horrible wrongs on the other.

      In fact that’s really the only way out of this, I think. This conflict has gone on long enough into history that… there’s really no side that’s justified; and it’s mired in a lot of violence and hatred to the point that it won’t be a simple path forward.

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  • shish_mish@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    I imagine Ukraine’s resistance would become objectively horrible if the Russians were still there after decades, claiming more and more land, bulldozing homes and creating an Apartheid. I once watched a documentary about Palestine (one of many) and the documentary maker was talking to a Palestinian woman while children were playing in the background. The children were playing a game of being suicide bombers. The reporter asked the woman about the children’s game. She said that t the children had no hope for the future, their only hope for a better life was after death.

    That really stuck with me. The Palestinian people have been treated like animals for generations by Israel, lied to, robbed, kept in poverty and forced to live in apartheid. I am not surprised they are fighting back. Yes, HAMAS are definitely bad guys too, but Israel is worse and till they are held to account over their behaviour and made to return Palestinian land and homes that have been illegally annexed ,things will not get better.

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    • SCB@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      If Hamas didn’t exist, life in Palestine would be totally different, so this is a bit of a misleading conciliation you’re making.

      Rejecting peace deals then acting as if your rights are violated because you don’t have a peace deal, which then justifies your terrorism, is not something that helps the people of your nation

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  • Jakdracula@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    yup

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• TheBananaKing@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Israel has been a huge crybully virtually since it was founded. It’s been annexing Palestinian land from the beginning, running a shitty apartheid state, committing ongoing slow genocide on the Palestinian people, then crying the innocent victim whenever they hit back - and guzzling unlimited billions in US military aid to do so.

  Hurt people hurt people, and oppression breeds radicalism. Hamas are not nice people, but they’re from a place where nice people don’t live long enough to matter. As with any abusive relationship, there’s going to be toxic coping mechanisms as a result, and it’s important to acknowledge that it’s not okay to do those things.

  But Israel (the country, not the people) sure as hell rakes in a lot of money and influence from being constantly under threat from the mean nasty baddies that they just have to keep oppressing and killing and oh look more money.

  Hamas is awful. But still and all, fuck Israel.

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  • MataVatnik@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    This is the correct answer. Israel could end this tomorrow if they choose to, so it’s their prerogative to do it. But their supremacist and racist ideology with their expansionist goals they will never do what needs to be done, and while I get saying that the people are the victims here, there is a lot of support for the state of Israel coming not just from its citizens but from all Jewish communities around the word. If these people don’t take responsibility, reform their toxic, hateful, and extremist ideology, and don’t do what needs to be done to solve this problem, then I have a hard time drumming up sympathy. A lot of Israelites are western immigrants with money, they can leave whenever they want, people in Palestine are essentially in an open air prison where it’s really difficult to enter or leave.

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    • atrielienz@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Israel wouldn’t have the means to do the massive amounts of damage it has done without help. Specifically help from the US. Who I blame for a good portion of the atrocities committed. It’s our weaponry being used in quite a lot of cases. And the death toll from that weaponry is significantly high. This is why I don’t want my government trying to “help”. And every single time I say that we should stay out of it people accuse me of somehow being for Israel or for the status quo. But in the long run, US war profiteering only helps people who commit atrocities.

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  • CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Fuck Hamas as well. 😉

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• Frog-Brawler@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  They are both wrong and they are both right. Up until this past week, I tended to be more sympathetic towards Palestine. Unfortunately, the most recent terrorist attack by Hamas was against more than just Israel or its military. It was a terrorist attack at a music festival, and Hamas attacked citizens of multiple nations.

  It’s a lot easier to support Israel right now. It sounds like they’re about to commit their own atrocities though, so you might have to flip your position tomorrow.

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  • AstridWipenaugh@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Israel responded by blowing up mosques and apartment buildings. They cut off power to everything, including hospitals. They’re blockading to prevent any supplies from entering Gaza. Both sides are committing war crimes and intentionally targeting civilians. Nobody is right here. Supporting either side is encouraging a religious war.

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    • GBU_28@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      The problem is hamas hides amongst the population, knowing that if Israel hits them, civilians will die too, further fanning the flames.

      Those dead civilians obviously radicalize survivors, adding to the ranks. The uninvolved civilians have no power to remove hamas from their space, so their fate is coupled.

      This is no comment on the demolitions or other general brutality Israel has been up to, just a discussion on how hamas operates

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  • Kyrgizion@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Both sides suck. Any more elaboration is likely to piss off a lot of people, so let’s keep it simple.

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    • madcaesar@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Both suck for different reasons.

      But also both are doing damage on different scales…

      The whole thing sucks.

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  • HaggierRapscallier@feddit.nl ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Problem is Hamas is Israel’s own creation. They funnelled them money.

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• Neon@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  they’re both absolutely awful pieces of shit.

  but here are my thoughts:

  • They’re both awful religious theocracies that want to exterminate the other side
  • Israel tends to leave citizens from other countries in peace, whereas Hamas has shown no mercy to germans or british citizens they’ve captured
  • Israeli soldiers don’t rape and parade prisoners
  • Israel has however been brutalizing Palestinians, with evidence of individual soldiers killing Palestinian children at random. It doesn’t seem to be Doctrine though. Israel also has Apartheid Structures discriminating against Palestinians
  • The People captured by Hamas mostly were in a Zone that the UN has declared to be illegally occupied by Israel
  • There are Reports of Hamas Fighters going around and rounding up civilians for mass-executions

  So yeah, it is a really really complicated Situation with no clear good or bad side. My personal stance on this is:

  1. I hope the Israeli Military can free the hostages taken by Hamas and bring the Perpetrators of the Massacres we hear about to justice (if the Reports of the Massacres are true)
  2. I am afraid that the hard-line anti-Palestinian Government of Israel will use this as an excuse to terrorize Palestinians and make them suffer
  3. I hope that in the End the internationally recognized and agreed-upon borders will be restored. I do hope however, that it will not happen as a Consequence of this military action, as it would embolden the use of Terrorism, Massacres and Hostage-Taking as a negotiation Tactic.

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  • needthosepylons@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    It’s been a long time since I’ve read such a sensible comment from this situation.

    To OP, I don’t know how to put it, but I feel there’s no real side to pick, expect for zealots and fanatics. A colonizing oppressive state is 150% wrong. Execution of civilians and exploiting your people misery to lead them to a theocratic disaster is 150% wrong.

    I’m from a both jew and muslim family and… I’m glad they feel the same way.

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  • bouh@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Israel bombed some building in Palestine. The whole towers were flattened. That’s a war crime. Just because you do it with a fighter jet doesn’t make it more humane.

    The apartheid is also a slow murder. I’d be interested to see statistics for all the people who died because of the blocus and the apartheid.

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  • negativeyoda@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    When Isreal openly advocates for Jews of other nationalities to come illegally occupy land that has supposedly been set aside for Palestinians they’re doing so to displace and replace them. How many resolutions about Palestine have been vetoed by only the US and Isreal with the rest of the world unilaterally telling Israel to cut it out? Shit, this one is from 7 years ago

    What Isreal is doing is genocide. I don’t for a minute condone all the methods Hamas is employing, but what’s happening is a predictable response from an increasingly desperate people

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  • JWayn596@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Morally, it’s a complicated situation.

    Geopolitically, Israel probably has the support of most Western nations simply due to the fact that they engage in diplomacy and have proper decorem, with a government system that is a relatively modern system despite political leanings.

    Additionally, Israel has a better human rights record DOMESTICALLY than Palestine and the Gaza region. It’s still dominated by religion, terrorist leaders, and its own population’s semi-justified bitterness. Freedom of expression and freedom of press is heavily restricted, just like any other Islamic religious state in the middle east.

    The sole responsibility of the escalation and subsequent destabilization of the region lies with Hamas. The sole responsibility of the withdrawal of Palestinian aid from countries like Austria, lies with Hamas.

    And with all the videos popping up over the treatment and killing of Israeli civilians, it’s hard for the Western world, and especially Western governments to garner the sympathy for the Palestinian people that they had 1 week ago.

    Both sidesing isn’t correct, whataboutism isn’t correct, blindly supporting either side isn’t correct, supporting efforts to contain the conflict is correct. The best way to do that is to monitor Israel’s progress in containing Hamas.

    We know that Hamas hides in schools and civilian buildings, using their own civilians as a shield. That’s a warcrime it itself. So it’s going to be messy as hell.

    The US sent the USS Gerald Ford into the Mediterranean as a deterrent. If any country starts to try to 3rd party the conflict, oh shit oh fuck WW1 vibes. That’s how tender this situation is.

    And with 1 other active conflict in the world, this is shaky ground.

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• alokir@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  It’s also ok to support neither or to say it’s too complicated to pick a side.

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• ReginaPhalange@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Speaking as an Israeli, both sides are fuckwits.
  Don’t support either side.

  Our fight in this world, is not against islam, it’s against religion.

  Jim jeffries.

  Support critical rational evidence based thinking, and you made the world a tiny bit better.

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• nandeEbisu@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  If you are comfortable with your understanding of the situation and arguing for whichever side you choose to support instead of just refusing to hear anything to the contrary then support whoever you want.

  Just know this isn’t like a sports team where there’s only superficial differences. It’s also ok to say I’m not informed enough to take one side or the other, or maybe only lean one way. You can point to unethical behavior on both sides, but I think it’s not unreasonable for people to hold one side more at blame than the other. Look into the history of the region and the ongoing discussion.

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  • clothes@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Thanks for being perhaps the only comment here trying to be helpful to those who aren’t deeply familiar with the conflict.

    I think an important emphasis here is that people shouldn’t accept explanations of the situation that make things easy to understand.

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• doktorseven@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Support peace. It is the only correct stance. There is zero reason for conflict, find a peaceful resolution.

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  • SpicyLizards@reddthat.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Damn, should have told them sooner!

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  • CrypticFawn@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Peace can only be achieved once one side has been destroyed, for the simple fact that neither can tolerate the others existence.

    I wish peace was a viable option, but it just isn’t.

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    • Dkarma@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      It is. If Israel moves.

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    • bouh@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Yet if you’re not part of the conflict there’s no reason to support one side over the other.

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• lath@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Here’s the thing, at the core of it, neither the people living in the israelian part nor the ones living in the palestinian one are really at fault here. The general public in general has no time for petty politics, being to busy to make a life. What you really want to blame are the agitators, the people who make it their life to create issues where there are none.

  The majority of the population on both sides just want to live their own life in peace and they are not allowed to. So if you want to side wkth someone, side with them.

  Blame the politicians who promote discord and occupation, blame the guerillas who attack innocent civilians, blame the religious proponents who spread hatred and bile. And plead with the general public to stop being such a bunch of pussies and actually put a stop to all the warmongering for everyone’s sake. Which is something we should all do, everywhere. But we won’t because we’re all pussies as well.

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  • UtMan1988@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    We’re not pussies; we’re poor.

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    • lath@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      By the way we trash talk on the internet, i’d say we’re pretty rich… in spirit.

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• HardlightCereal@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Israeli people and Palestinian people both have a legitimate claim to live in the land surrounding Jerusalem. Palestinians are mostly muslim, and there are other muslim places to live. Israeli people are mostly jewish, and there are no other jewish places to live. That said, religion isn’t ethnicity. Palestinians may be the same religion as other muslims, but they’re not the same race. Just like black americans are mostly christian, but that doesn’t mean they’re the same race as white americans. Israeli people can’t be guaranteed fair treatment elsewhere. Palestinian people have a right to live in their homes.

  Israeli and Palestianian people both have a valid and important need to live in the holy land. So the simple solution is, they should both live there. That’s a solution supported by a lot of Isreali and Palestinian people. But it’s not a solution supported by the government of Israel. The government of Israel wants political control over the whole region, and to be able to legally and systemically put jews first.

  I don’t think the correct answer is “support” or “don’t support”, because that’s too broad. I think the correct answer is to support the people’s rights, and support the government’s desire for safety for its people, but not to support the government’s treatment of palestinians.

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  • fkn@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    there are no other Jewish places to live

    This is such a weird stance. What even is this position that is nonchalantly thrown into the argument as if it even matters.

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    • HardlightCereal@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      It’s the position of zionists. I threw it in for completeness, and added a counterargument. If you want me to explain their position more thoroughly, zionists believe that Jewish safety can only be guaranteed by Jewish independence. In any democracy, minorities are only protected as long as the majority vote for their interests. Zionists desire a state with a jewish majority, to guarantee safety. I don’t believe in states because I’m an anarchist, but I empathise with wanting the protection of a state.

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  • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    That’s a solution supported by a lot of Isreali and Palestinian people. But it’s not a solution supported by the government of Israel. The government of Israel wants political control over the whole region, and to be able to legally and systemically put jews first.

    Bro/sis you took the words off my tongue.

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    • HardlightCereal@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Nonbinary sib.

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  • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    I don’t think religion is just a justification for owning any land. That’s kind of a backwards take. Regressive, really.

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  • StupidQuestionGuy@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    [deleted]

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    • fkn@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Which part?

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  • FMT99@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    So you’re saying disband both governments, replace with an international peace keeping force. That actually makes sense.

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  • eatham@aussie.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    Also a lot of both Jews and Arabs just hate the other side so it’s not really the govt problem here.

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• Epicurus0319@sopuli.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Dog shit vs. cat shit. Now, as for Ukraine and Russia the latter is obviously in the wrong- anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.

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• Aceticon@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Being for a very large group of people is illogical because (with the noteable exception of groups whose membership is defined solely by the actual actions of the members, i.e. those who commited gruesome murders) it is an absolute certainty that some of its members are complete total shits.

  The only reasons for being for a group of people such as a nation are emotional, either tribalism or emotional reacting to things you hear about “them” or done to “them” (and not having the intellectual filters to read said “them” as reductionist bollocks), which is why Propaganda works so well in this domain.

  Being against doing bad shit, without the reductionism, obfuscation and and dehumanization of looking it as “sides” rather than people, is probably the only logical thing to do as there you have a path from morably reprehensible actions to the people who did them.

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• jacktherippah@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  This conflict is so ridiculously complicated. I wouldn’t blame anyone for supporting one side or another.

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• leraje@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  I support the rights of the Palestinian and Israeli people who just want to live in peace to do that. I do not support Hamas or the Israeli Army committing atrocity after atrocity at the behest of their political leaders.

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• Pea666@feddit.nl ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Short answer: Sure, why would you need our approval anyway.

  Longer answer: it’s a complicated conflict where shitty things are done by both sides and it’s probably not as simple as supporting one side over the other all the time.

  I’d say a lot of it is politicians being political for their own gains and normal people (Israeli and Palestinian) getting fucked. But who am I eh?

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• TheDarkKnight@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  You can support the side of peace for all people regardless of Palestine or Israel. Civilians should be left alone and both sides have committed atrocities against the other. Fucking awful situation.

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• Noel_Skum@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Good luck debating this topic. Even on a sight such as this it is way too divisive a question. You don’t have to support either side - it’s not a sports contest. There is too much history and backstory to make a snap decision. It’s just more death and misery for innocent folk on both sides whilst the fanatics (Hardliners, extremists etc.) on both sides try to wipe each other out.

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• betwixthewires@lemmy.basedcount.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  No matter what you think of it, someone’s going to try to guilt and browbeat you. Support the Palestinians? You’re antisemitic and support terrorism. Support Israel? You’re supporting an oppressive apartheid state. So who cares whether you’re allowed, this is the world we live in, no matter what you think about anything there’s someone out there who’s going to call you a bad person for it. Just learn about things before you form an opinion, use your judgment and critical thinking and then figure out the truth of whatever it is.

  Personally, I don’t support either side. I can see how they both kind of brought each other’s retaliation on themselves. I just lament innocent people dying and dislike how it affects me.

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• MataVatnik@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  I would recommend reading history if you’re thinking about supporting one side vs another. I personally think Israel has the ability to end this tomorrow if they choose, but I don’t support the violence coming from Hamas.

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• Barley_Man@sopuli.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  When it comes to Israel vs Palestine then I absolutely think it’s alright to support either side. Both sides have valid reasons to exist and both sides have done horrible things to each other. But remember this is not Israel vs the Palestinian authority (the west bank). This is Israel vs Hamas (Gaza). That makes a world of a difference. In this conflict I believe Hamas is in the wrong.

  Many people accuse Israel to be an apartheid state. I would argue Israeli arabs have it much better than blacks in south Africa did (polling even shows arab-isrealis (the ones who ended up in isreals side of the border in 1948) prefer living in Israel instead of Palestine because of their quality of life) however they are certainly not equal to the Jewish isrealies. But now ask yourself. How would a Jew be treated in Gaza? There are none and there is a reason for that. They would get killed on the street immediately. If isreal is an apartheid state then Gaza is a puristic ehnostate. Both are racist but Gaza is infinitely worse. They don’t want to coexist with Jews at all, no they want them all dead.

  Hamas is one of the worst organisations on earth. They don’t even care for their own people. When western nations give Gaza free fertilizer to feed their people and reduce starvation then Hamas used it to build bombs to fire at Israel. When western charities gave Gaza money to feed their people, they bought guns instead. This is a regime ruled by nothing else than hate and does not even have a concern for their own people. Isreal supplies Gaza with water and electricity and has done so for decades. Gaza would never do something like that for isreal. I believe there is no case for Hamas at all. They are in the wrong here quite definitely. Just look who they are attacking. First target was a music festival by the border where they raped, kidnapped and murdered all the participants. This music festival was a music festival for peace. That’s why it was right by the border fence. Hamas didn’t believe in peace.

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  • StupidQuestionGuy@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    [deleted]

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    • Barley_Man@sopuli.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Yes Gaza is ruled by Hamas which is a terrorist islamist un-democratic organization which can’t provide for its people, leading to foreign aid organizations providing most of the amenities there. A source for that will come later. The west bank is ruled by the Palestinian authority which is a democratic state which has been mostly peaceful for the last decadehttps://jewishjournal.com/israel/…/s and which I support. The Palestinian authority is on paper supposed to rule Gaza too however Hamas declared war against the Palestinian authority in 2007 because they opposed the results of a democratic election and took over the Gaza strip. You can read about that here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

      Music festival celebrating “friends, love and infinite freedom” right by the border fence. Hamas killed 260 of the attendees on the first date of the war. Washington post source: washingtonpost.com/…/israel-festival-attack-gaza-…

      “Hamas’ traditional weapon is the Qassam rocket, a cheap garage-built weapon assembled from industrial piping, home-made rocket fuel of sugar and potassium nitrate fertilizer, and commercial explosive” Forbes soruce: forbes.com/…/how-hamas-leveraged-cheap-rockets-an…

      This sources does say it’s made from fertilizer but this does not say explicitly that the fertilizer is from foreign aid (I found sources but they are all isreali). However if it is or is not does not matter as much as the fact that fertilizer should have been used to produce food for the starving people in Gaza. Hamas, the rulers of Gaza, can’t provide for most basic amenities for their people. Foreign aid powers a lot of basics such as schools and healthcare (which is great!) while Hamas uses their budget to bomb isreal. (If you want to read a isreali source about the accusation it’s here: jewishjournal.com/…/made-in-gaza-hamas-rockets-th…)

      apnews.com/…/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-…

      This article talks a bit about the foreign aid which goes to Gaza. Thankfully most foreign aid is now earmarked for certain projects (which is why the UN runs their own schools for example, so they know where the money is going)). Isreal has called for this for a long time because they were concerned foreign aid is used to fund terrorism. In addition isreal grants work permits to tens of thousands Gazans to work in isreal across the border. On the other hand it’s not possible to enter Gaza as an Isreali. I think it’s clear that isreal is the party with the most good will in this conflict. It’s also worth mentioning that some arab nations does not support Hamas either. Egypt for example is on the side of the Palestinian authority and has had a blockade against Hamas ever since the take over in 2007.

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• MicrosoftSam@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Israeli here: All we want is to live in peace. We welcome your support in this incredibly difficult time, after having suffered the most devastating attack our small nation has ever seen. Wishing everyone quiet, peaceful days as soon as possible.

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  • doublejay1999@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    “All we want is to live in peace”.

    I’m sure you do, but the actions of your government tell a very different story.

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    • dumdum666@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      The actions of Israel’s government doesn’t give anyone the right to murder civilians and on top of that parading their broken and mutilated bodies through the streets while a crowd is loudly screaming and spitting at them.

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  • bingbong@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    All we want is to live in peace.

    Every human being on the planet claims this. Actions speak louder though, and point in the opposite direction. Israel cannot systematically oppress an entire population and expect them to lay down and be slowly eradicated from the face of this planet.

    I’m not commenting on whether or not you as an individual want peace, but massive portions of the state of Israel demonstrably wants to control the entire state of Palestine, and have proven that they will engage in violence to ensure that goal is achieved.

    I commend you for wanting peace, but Israel cannot achieve peace when they are currently in the process of implementing collective punishment on all Palestinians in Gaza for the actions of Hamas, IJ, Iran, and Hezbollah. I’m sure there is a significant amount of Israelis that are against this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if a majority approve.

    Israeli here: All we want is to live in peace.

    I sincerely hope for that to be true, and hope that peace is achieved within our lifetime. However, it cannot be achieved with increasingly violent retributions from each side. Hamas made it very clear that their abhorrent behavior is a direct response to Israel and its settler’s abhorrent behavior. Israel can stop settlements and raiding Al-Aqsa at any time. Unless it does just that, it is obvious that it is not interested in peace.

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• Kissaki@feddit.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Why do you support them?

  Why support them without disclosing reasons?

  Im talking about their Settlements and their military campaigns NOT about their government.

  What does that even mean? Both of those are inherently political and driven from government. I don’t see how you can separate them.

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• jet@hackertalks.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Supporting either side doesn’t get the location into a stable state. To end this violence a radical and uncomfortable change is required, by everyone.

  There won’t be peace as long as either population is oppressed and in danger.

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• atrielienz@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Are you from Israel? Do you have a personal stake in the conflict? I appreciate that people want to help what they view as the underdog or the entity on the receiving end of what they view as atrocity. However if you don’t have a stake in it and you’re not willing to waste into the history of the region (all of it, not just the bits and pieces that support one side) then maybe don’t support either side.

  They way I look at it, they can come to an accord or they can fight. I know that seems heartless. But on the other hand I can name at least 5 other conflicts my country has gotten involved with that had nothing to do with us except it maybe made us money and propped up a government that at the time was pro USA and every single time it happens it amounts to us war profiteering and that same puppet regime turns into some sort of terrorist organization.

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• eatham@aussie.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Yes, you can prefer either as long as you don’t be rude about it. Personally (as someone formerly from Israel) I want peace not war, but definitely prefer Israel as a country.

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  • ThePyroPython@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

    You’re under no obligation to answer these questions, but I would like your opinion:

    Before the recent attack, was there any chance of a long lasting agreement being reached between Israel and Palestine?

    What are the chances of a peace deal being respected by both sides?

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    • MicrosoftSam@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      Different Israeli here, but I imagine most of us feel the same, and it’s best summed up by Golda Meir’s famous quote: “There will be peace in the Middle East only when the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel.”

      All we want is to live in peace.

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    • PupBiru@kbin.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      also (somewhat ignorant myself), possibly useful to distinguish between palestine and hamas… palestine the state might be more amenable than hamas

      … but idk

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    • eatham@aussie.zone ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

      I don’t really see a peace deal happening soon, haven’t heard of any recent attempts to make one.

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• Paragone@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  The ONLY way that peace could have been earned, in the West Bank, is…

  • an independent ( UN ) government, that wouldn’t tolerate EITHER side’s abuse, and systematically silenced bullying from the place
  • ALL necessary & sufficient infrastructure, healthcare, etc, in-place, AND NEUTRAL ( no Hamas, no Israel, NO politics in it: ONLY neutral facilitation-of-healthy-civil-process )
  • keep this silencing-of-any-bullying for 2-4 generations, until the enmity-addicted people were all out-from-power
  • THEN form a sane local-of-the-people government, gradually ceding from 1 to the other, celebrating the victory-against-prejudice ( on both sides ).

  Neither side would tolerate/allow that.

  TTBOMK, Israel has maintained about 100 dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli Jew, for many years, there is some sites on the 'web that have numbers for that, btw.

  There is ZERO hope for any peace there, thanks to enmity being the addiction of sooo many, on both sides, who have authority, and therefore who use their authority to multiply enmity’s reach throughout the cultures.

  A “church of hatred & evil” that situation has become.

  Heartbreaking waste of God-given LivingPotential & LivingOpportunity, from both populations…

  : \

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• rufus@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Support people and humanitarian causes. not nations.

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• otter@lemmy.ca ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Is it ok to

  There’s no big authority on how you’re supposed to feel, especially on Lemmy. But there ARE usually rules on what kind of comments you can make, regardless of which “side” of a conflict you’re speaking about.

  As for public sentiment, it really comes down to if you’re speaking in good faith or not. These are complex issues with many aspects to talk about, and discussion can be very productive.

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• Resol@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago

  Both sides have done some pretty serious war crimes against the other. I think it’s best to just stay neutral on this one.

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