Open Menu
AllLocalCommunitiesAbout
lotide
AllLocalCommunitiesAbout
Login

Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

⁨255⁩ ⁨likes⁩

Submitted ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨simple@piefed.social⁩ to ⁨games@lemmy.world⁩

https://www.ign.com/articles/criticism-isnt-hate-hollow-knight-silksong-sparks-debate-about-difficulty-runbacks-and-the-dreaded-git-gud-comments

source

Comments

Sort:hotnewtop
  • missingno@fedia.io ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    I haven't played Silksong yet, in part because truthfully, Hollow Knight was alright but not my favorite Metroidvania. The one thing I really disliked about the original was the runbacks. I remember getting stuck on one platforming section, and I could easily get to the halfway point where I kept dying to retrieve my money, but then drop it again because there was no turning back from this halfway point, had to keep trying to finish it. I wanted to just explore a different part of the map and come back to this section later, but sunk cost fallacy forced me to keep bashing my skull against it.

    Which then felt like this mechanic conflicted with the exploration I expect from a Metroidvania. That's the real problem IMO.

    source
    • subignition@fedia.io ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      You yourself admit it's a fallacy! This isn't exactly a "skill issue" situation, but in future efforts on these kind of games you might try being more thoughtful about when to take a break and spend accumulated currency.

      Although as others have pointed out elsewhere in the thread, learning to accept not retrieving your stuff is sometimes necessary too. I lost around 1500 at a certain boss by getting too cocky trying to fight enemies on the runback instead of skipping them, and it took me a while to make peace with it lol.

      If you do end up playing Silksong you should know that there is a mechanic specifically addressing this, where you can convert your currency into consumable items at a bit of a loss to keep them across deaths.

      source
      • missingno@fedia.io ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        I do not like the idea of a mechanic that punishes me if I do choose to explore somewhere else in a genre that is supposed to be about exploration.

        source
        • -> View More Comments
  • cerebralhawks@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    I don’t mind difficult games. I recognise that they exist as a kind of pushback against mobile games and casual games that have risen in popularity. I don’t mind that they exist. Likewise, I strongly believe that gaming is for everybody, but not every game has to be for everybody.

    I think it’s perfectly fine, though, to ask the question: if the game — any hard game, to include the Dark Souls game and its spinoffs (e.g. Elden Ring) and knockoffs (e.g. Breath of the Wild) — had an easy mode, where virtually anyone could win it eventually, would that truly make the game less fun for people who like hard games? What if the game were hard by default, and easy mode cost $5 extra? That way, you would never be presented with the option, but those who want it can get it for a slight upcharge. (Maybe less on a $20 game, I’m thinking the $5 would be for a $70 game.) Case in point: Final Fantasy XV was never hard. But for 49¢, you could buy a “DLC”/“mod” that made gas cost half — 5 gil instead of 10 for any fill-up — and also made hotels (which give a big XP buff) half price. So one early-game strategy was equipping a ring that would not pay out experience when you camp, and saving your XP (which is normally paid out every time you sleep) until you could afford a room at the XP-doubling Galden Quay resort hotel, gaining you several levels by then. With the DLC/mod, you could afford it much sooner, and you could actually do it a few times, setting you up for later parts of the game. It wasn’t an easy mode, but it did soften the grind a bit, and it wasn’t presented as an option in the game. You kinda had to know about it and go look for it.

    I actually think there’s something to that. Making a game and selling parts of it never really goes down well with players. But most players can’t beat hard games. So what if instead of new games being $70 or $80, they were $50 or $60 still, but people who want help can buy things that will make the game easier. Let those players subsidize the ones who are good enough to beat it without them, incentivising them to get better. Ideally, to get better at that game so they uninstall the helpers, beat it without them, then when the next one comes out, they’re ready.

    I don’t hate hard games. But I’m not going to pay for them. If they make their money off people who have that much time on their hands, that’s fine. It’s a sound business decision. But I also think a game can’t say “we wish we made more money” while intentionally excluding players who maybe have full-time jobs, families, or other valid reasons to not learn the perfect button combinations and ultra-precise timing some of these games require. I think if they could find a way to include those players while not putting off their base, they’d have a winning solution on their hands. And no, we’re not gonna quit our jobs or neglect our families to “git gud” like we live with our parents and are half our age.

    source
    • slimerancher@lemmy.world ⁨23⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I agree with most of it, except I think it’s fine for developers to make a hard (or very hard game) if that’s their vision. Not every games is for everyone. And if developers are fine with targeting just a niche, there is no issue with it.

      That being said, I do have issue with players / gamers saying there should be no easy mode. Adding an easy mode doesn’t take away anything for anyone who isn’t playing easy mode. All it takes away is their ability to brag that they finished a game half the people can’t finish. There are ways for developers to handle even that. Give some special achievement or something for those who finish on non-easy mode, but that’s again up to developers, and I am fine if there isn’t one.

      source
    • mohab@piefed.social ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      I don't mind difficult games. I recognise that they exist as a kind of pushback against mobile games and casual games that have risen in popularity

      You got that backwards: difficult games are as old as arcades. If anything, casual games exist as pushback against difficult games, not the other way around.

      source
      • Coelacanth@feddit.nu ⁨21⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Yes indeed, when arcade games were the norm devs specifically designed for absurd difficulty ramp ups and cheap deaths to finagle another quarter out of you.

        source
  • Treczoks@lemmy.world ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Kids crying because a game is not a walkthrough? Maybe they should play something more suitable for their age group.

    source
    • LettyWhiterock@lemmy.world ⁨17⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Why people resort to insulting anyone who criticizes things they like

      source
      • Treczoks@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        It’s not about me liking it or not. I don’t even have that game. The point is that one should play games fitting ones abilities. There are people who will master this game, like I mastered Elite about forty years ago. Complaining about a game being difficult is either they overestimated their abilities, or they lack perseverance.

        For the rest, there is always tictactoe or animal crossing.

        source
        • -> View More Comments
    • SeriousMite@lemmy.world ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Seems to me it’s usually “kids” that don’t mind difficult games. I’m in my 40s and I don’t have the time or inclination anymore to replay a boss for hours on end, but when I was younger I loved a challenge like that and would usually set difficulty to hard.

      source
  • Poopfeast420@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    I think the game is difficult, probably a bit more difficult than the first game (which I haven’t played in over 5 years, so I might be wildly off), but I don’t find it unreasonable.

    I know a lot of the time it’s my fault that I died, because I’m someone who likes to trade damage with enemies, which just isn’t really possible in this game, but I can’t stop doing it.

    As for runbacks, I think there are a few weird ones, that can be terrible, depending on if you found/unlocked the nearest bench, but otherwise I don’t remember anything truly awful.

    source
  • Vanilla_PuddinFudge@infosec.pub ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Once you

    Tap for spoiler

    Get the run/dash ability

    , none of this is even a problem. You can jump and glide over any normal enemy in the game back to a boss room.

    source
  • ModernRisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨23⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    People have nothing better to do than complain, I suppose. Don’t like the game? Don’t play it. The game is good, imo.

    source
    • ampersandrew@lemmy.world ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      What about people who like the game but have criticisms? This is the time to discuss it.

      source
      • ModernRisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        That’s alright too but every time there’s a hard game, it’s always the same old complaining. It’s tiresome.

        Hollow Knight, the first game was hard too with some bosses.

        source
        • -> View More Comments
  • Kolanaki@pawb.social ⁨23⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Difficulty is subjective. Creating multiple levels of difficulty either takes tremendous effort to do well or, as is the case with most games, an adjustment to some numbers that is less an increase/decrease in difficulty and more an increase/decrease to the tediousness of combat.

    Puzzle games with difficulty settings alter the complexity of the puzzles. Action games can alter the encounters themselves (how many, of what kind of enemies and their placement in the arena), or even changing the enemy behavior to be more/less complex. Yet this kind of difficulty adjustment isn’t common at all anymore.

    source
  • desmosthenes@lemmy.world ⁨20⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    glad poe 2 added sprinting

    source
    • BananaIsABerry@lemmy.zip ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Tangentially related but I agree. It makes the long run through sections of the campaign more bearable.

      On a more related note, POE2 has checkpoints practically on top of the bosses during the story so you can bash your head against it as much as you want. The only time you’re punished for dying is endgame bosses.

      source
      • desmosthenes@lemmy.world ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        yea agreed. in general though our attitudes with gaming have changed due to how many titles are available (over abundance) and the history of gaming, etc. we’ve become spoiled in ways. there needs to be a ‘penalty’ of sorts to encourage trial and error growth. get some true dopamine overcoming a trial.

        there’s a place for all types of games and difficulties though. let the artists create their vision.

        source
  • But_my_mom_says_im_cool@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Why are these side scrollers premium price?? Seems like such a cash grab. That’s why franchises are going backwards into side scrollers, easy money, i avoid them

    source
    • TimbukTuscan@reddthat.com ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      The game is 20 bucks. How the hell is that a premium price?

      source
  • Vanilla_PuddinFudge@infosec.pub ⁨22⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    git gud

    source
  • Renacles@lemmy.world ⁨23⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    The game was designed for people to have played the first one first. I think the difficulty curve works best if you consider Silksong as a direct continuation of the first game, picking off where the main story left off rather than the extra challenges they added through updates like godhome.

    source
  • NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip ⁨19⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    So far I have only found two or so runbacks that really bothered me. One is THAT BOSS (TLJ…) which isn’t actually too bad (once you figure out the safe path) but a single missed jump or tag by an enemy is 2 masks of damage. So just spend all your souls ahead of time and if you flub, end it all and respawn.

    The other is a much earlier boss in Widow (?). The runback is actually zero danger and just a matter of holding R2 and running. My big issue is that there is an elevator right next to the bench. So you start the sprint back because you want to get it right this time and slam into a cage and have to wait for it to reach the top then hop back in to get back down and it just feels horrible.

    But yeah. I actually like a good runback as a way to reset your brain and avoid getting on tilt against a boss. Elden Ring very much spoiled people by putting the bonfire right outside the fogwall for effectively every single boss and it just leads to making the same mistake over and over again until you warp away to do something else. But Silksong’s balance is definitely rough.

    source