Many EU countries have a “VAT” and like feel like this is kinda targeting poor people. Like, for the rich, this is insignificant, for poorer people, a (example) 20% tax would be a huge burden. Why do they do this?
🤔
Submitted 2 days ago by IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com to [deleted]
Many EU countries have a “VAT” and like feel like this is kinda targeting poor people. Like, for the rich, this is insignificant, for poorer people, a (example) 20% tax would be a huge burden. Why do they do this?
🤔
It’s regressive in the sense that poor people spend more of their money on goods and services that include VAT.
It’s also “broad based” in that wealthy people spend more money (in total) on things, and the vendors of those things collect the tax.
For example, if a company in Australia sells a $11m private jet to some asshole, that asshole just paid $1m in taxes.
Said asshole may well pay no income tax by virtue of their ability to disappear taxable income through complex business structures.
They also tax the rich through progressive income taxes, capital gains taxes, corporate taxes etc.
If you’re asking why not just tax the rich in place of a VAT, well, it’s sort of why not tax the rich to pay for absolutely everything we could want. The costs and difficulties in taxing the rich generally scale to the point where the marginal revenue raised by the tax becomes negative.
If you’re asking why not just tax the rich in place of a VAT, well, it’s sort of why not tax the rich to pay for absolutely everything we could want.
So basically, you can only tax so much before the rich get mad and leave the EU? 🤔
More like the rich will get even more proficient in tax avoidance
No, EU member states handle taxes individually.
But, that ease of travel is one inducement. (Consider, as billionaire Spaniard learns the government plans to tax an additional 100 million euros. With no border, is moving a few km next door to Portugal worth a 100 million?
More meaningful though is business taxes/regulations, which are a large part of why Europe has lost so many Unicorns to the NYSE and why within America, Texas is kind of killing it in terms of business relocations.
I personally think it’s a race to the bottom but those are the constraints that exist.
And this is why the 1983 tax cut in the US increased revenue as at the reduced rates more wealthy people paid rather than avoided taxes.
Oh interesting, I wasn’t aware there were actually examples of the Laffer curve working in reality! I alwats thought it was just a theoretical that conservatives had latched onto…
VAT is a sales tax, not an income tax.
And yet the claim that it is regressive is accurate. It impacts those that have less wealth to a greater degree which makes it regressive.
How so? A poor person would buy less things, thus pay less VAT, than a rich person buying more things
Just to make sure you know: Basically everyone has a VAT, except the US. It’s not some special EU thing.
We have it in Switzerland, Canada has it, Japan has it, China has it, India has it, Russia has it, Brazil has it, Indonesia has it, Australia has it, Ukraine has it, Mexico has it, South Africa has it… I’m stopping here, but every country I googled had it so far.
Doesn’t the US also have local taxes that are effectively the same as a VAT
You probably mean the sales taxes, those look similar from a consumer point of view, but they work differently.
In a VAT system the taxes are collected all along the value addition chain. Each sale of intermediary products has the VAT cost on it, but companies can claim the VAT that they pay for their inputs against the one they collected on their outputs. In effect each company hands over the part of VAT that is raised on their part of the value addition. In the end it all comes from the consumer who buys the final product but doesn’t sell anything onward so they can’t claim their paid VAT against anything. This system determines the end consumer automatically.
In a sales tax system, only the sale to the final end customer is taxed, and intermediary products are not taxed. Intermediary companies must prove to their suppliers that they are not end customers, that they intend to sell things onward, and that they are therefore exempted from sales tax and the supplier does not have to collect sales tax. If that fails, then that means mistakenly a company has to pay sales tax, and then their customer has to pay it again.
Other than that I don’t know enough to compare:
We have taxes imposed by: -federal government -state government -county and city governments
What do you mean “instead of”? There are many kinds of taxes in my country, which is in the EU. I pay a huge cut of my salary in taxes every month even before I pay VAT on things I buy.
That tax is reduced for important goods in most countries, like bread
All consumption taxes are regressive.
Fortunately they hit the rich harder than poor. Which means there’s more money for the social programs that keep those who are struggling alive
Children’s clothing too.
Someone wanna tell me one of those countries with reduced VAT for children’s clothing or bread?
We get reduced VAT on hotel stays and medicine only. Bread, children’s clothing (or more importantly if you need to use it, milk formula, which is going to cost you more) are all full VAT. Estonian here.
Nothing will meaningfully improve until the rich fear for their lives
Sales taxes, including VAT, are inherently regressive. Normally things like unprocessed food are exempted to minimize impact, but it does still affect the poor more than the rich. Why keep them? They are easy to collect, hard to avoid and can bring in lots of revenue without people noticing or complaining.
Yes, you’re correct: Poorer people spend most of not all of their available on income on everyday goods like groceries, clothes, etc…
Richer people spend (relatively speaking!) less of their available income on these items and save me
Essential goods have a 6% taxation in my country (Portugal). This also applies to the first 200kw/h you use in your home.
Then there is a 13% for services, like restaurants. I think wine is also taxed thia way.
The higher tier is reserved for non essential items, like cookies, chocolate, fuels (which are technically being double taxed), cars, etc.
We also pay a direct contribution for our social security system (11% over your gross salary, monthly), plus a direct taxation over our overall monthly salary (the minimum wage workers are exempt from this).
The discussiom on these taxes is long, old and boring but it essentially boils down to having those who want something, pay for it.
Your whole post can be summed up as “consumption taxes are regressive but some think they are more fair”
What is the alternative? Asking honestly.
Because the rich make the rules.
It’s a vat. Like a vat of oil. They deep fry the money, and then recirculate the crispy delicious money into the ecconomy. That’s what thfy mean by eat the rich. Deep fry their money, and eat their faces.
…what? Whys everyone looking at me like that?
Username checks out.
:P
We have VAT in America. The States got pissy that we were buying things online and not paying sales tax. Now we have to pay VAT and sales tax because Google and such caved in to pressure, and the rich assholes still do whatever they want. Capitalism is hell and America is doomed.
Good luck y’all.
There is no VAT in America. Just sales tax at a state and local level. VAT is a very specific method of taxation that isn’t the same as sales tax. I’m still not sure how you are relating that to Google either though. Google sells very little compared to someplace like Amazon.
I don’t know what State you live in but we sure as shit have it in Illinois.
Here in the Uk we have tax for services (council tax), tax for health care (national insurance), tax for all your income (income tax) and almost everything you buy includes a small tax called VAT (value added tax) which is about 20%. There’s also a few taxes on cigs, alcohol and petrol.
VAT not on food, books but it on basically everything else. The more things you buy, the more tax you’ve paid. You more yoy spend on items the more you pay.
I don’t know why people are calling it a tax on the poor. It’s obviously a tax on the biggest consumers.
It’s obviously a tax on the biggest consumers.
Yes and no.
You’re absolutely correct in terms of total dollars contributed.
But the flip side is in terms of percentage of income. The wealthier you are, the more likely you are to have stocks, property and the like, which are usually exempt. So, as a total percentage of income, a VAT tends to hit the poor harder. (That being said, other taxes like capital gains are more progressive etc to make up the difference.)
Stocks and property are taxed, just not with VAT: we have capital gains tax, dividend tax, and stamp duty.
Because fuck the poor and working class. Don’t forget that they’re double dipping since income is often taken out of your earnings before you even get your money then every single purchase is taxed too.
No, not every purchase is taxed, and not every purchase that is is taxed at the same rate.
These rates are set by individual countries (because “Europe”, lol) and can change year to year. For example Ireland doesn’t tax books, basic food staples, children’s clothes, medicines. Heating fuel is taxed but was set to a reduced rate during the cost of living crisis. Other countries will have different priorities.
VAT ensures that even those who have a large amount of wealth accumulated without “income” also contribute to society.
Don’t forget that they’re double dipping since income is often taken out of your earnings before you even get your money then every single purchase is taxed too.
😭
Because fuck the poor and working class.
I thought EU was very progressive since they often have stuff (like healthcare) much better than the US. Is their “progressiveism” a myth? Am I over-estimating how progressive they are? 🤔
There’s another factor that nobody mentioned: the sales tax in EU countries is different for different products. This allows countries to incentive or disincentivize different classes of products by ramping the sales tax up or down. Higher tax on junk food, cigarettes and/or alcohol, low or nonexistent sales tax for basic ingredients.
Interestingly, France and the Czech republic tax wine and beer respectively like basic food.
How the fuck you think they pay for healthcare and social programs?
China also uses a VAT. As far as I know it’s generally worse in both fairness and economic impact to income tax, but it’s much easier to administer.
Depends how you look at it. Out of my wage, I lose ~50% after taxes and the healthcare system’s “fair share” and, depending on the country, the health system is so under-funded anyway that there’s a heavy incentive to give in and pay private if you want certain operations or some such done anytime in the foreseeable future.
In what way does VAT hurt the poor more than the rich? Considering it’s on each item you buy it clearly impacts the rich more than the poor.
Because VAT id proportional to the item, not the person’s income. From one perspective, yes it’s a fair system but from another, the cost of living is significantly greater for a poor person than a wealthy person. Many are barely scraping by while others are out wining and dining and still getting plenty for free.
Yes, you’re correct: Poorer people spend most of not all of their available on income on everyday goods like groceries, clothes, etc…
Richer people spend (relatively speaking!) less of their available income on these items and save me
The rich don’t have to pay taxes. The taxes they pay are largely voluntary.
That is the way of the world. It’s a truism. That’s what happens. You cannot change it.
Bonus extra: the trickle-down theory almost entirely doesn’t exist either. BUT the second generation - the grandchildren - after the original rich person will usually piss almost all of the fortune away.
Second bonus extra: the same thing happened with serious socialism; the leaders become dictators.
Anarchy for the win. 😁
alvvayson@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 days ago
It is, but it’s also a very efficient and difficult to evade tax. For many EU countries the VAT revenue is equal or larger than the income tax revenue.
Most Europeans don’t mind it. You can control your spending, so VAT doesn’t hit us in inconvenient ways, like for example, taxes on cars and property.
European countries compensate poor people with good social programs. So in the end, poor people are getting more benefits than the VAT they pay.
Bruncvik@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I agree overall, but VAT is not all that difficult to evade, at least in the service industry. Paying handymen in cash is common in many countries, and that’s a means to evade VAT. Hell, even using them to buy the building or landscaping materials for you (being a registered business they purchase for prices without VAT) saves you on most of the tax. Then there’s service barter. I did it only once, a long time ago, but it can serve as an example: I did family portraits (photography) for my physio, in exchange for a number of physio sessions. If we charged each other, it would have cost each of us, say, 250 Euros, but we’d only see 200 each, and the state would get 100. So, savings of 50 for each of us.
Kazumara@discuss.tchncs.de 7 hours ago
That’s not true, sorry. A business pays stuff with VAT included too, but they can later claim back the VAT they paid against the VAT they raised from selling stuff, so they don’t have to hand all of that over.
alvvayson@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 day ago
Sure, but those are relatively small potatoes.
And if a single person does it a lot, then the tax authorities can easily examine their spending and prove that they are spending more than they are officially earning. And then they can apply punitive measures.