Two in one stupidish question- Debate about United Healthcare CEO and best place to have it

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Submitted ⁨⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨kertain@sh.itjust.works⁩ to ⁨[deleted]⁩

Hello! So two things:

I would like to have a discussion about the UHC CEO killing and if it is at all any different than the ~45 murders a day in the USA…(other than the obvious “he was rich” one). -Typical Christmas family get together brought this up as a topic and was curious about the different perspectives. Argument made by others was “this sets a bad precedent”, and the response was “how is this any different than someone getting murdered for literally any reason”. Hate, lust, money, your car…whatever the motivation, how is this any different?
Is there a better location to post said discussion topic?

I mostly lurk Lemmy, so not really sure how to find the correct communities for said topic.

Thanks!

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Comments

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Kolanaki@yiffit.net ⁨2⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
The only way it is “worse” (or better) than typical, everyday violence was the motivation. It wasn’t just someone getting mad and acting in the heat of the moment. It was someone getting mad who wanted to send a message. There was a legitimate, culturally relevant reason Brian Thompson was killed, and it could very well lead to other killings for the same reason unless the status quo sees significant changes.

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cerement@slrpnk.net ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

“What is so much worse than vigilante violence without accountability is systemic violence without accountability. The most prolific vigilante in the world, hell the most prolific serial killer in the world, could not kill as many people per day as the CEO of United Healthcare is responsible for.”

via Tumblr

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- cerement@slrpnk.net ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  via !latestagecapitalism@lemmy.world
  
  Image
  
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  - maxenmajs@lemmy.world ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    They really messed up when the whole squad got together for that photo op. That’s a powerful image.
    
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FuglyDuck@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
For the first….

Honestly, it’s probably less offensive and more justifiable than most shootings.

Is it still murder? Yes, imo.

Vigilantism is bad. It’s horrible. If you add up all the Brian Thompsons that get taken out, vs, all the others who didn’t actually do anything- Ahmaud Arbery, comes to mind…

Guess what I’m saying is that Luigi did something awful, but his target selection was most appreciated.

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- piecat@lemmy.world ⁨28⁩ ⁨minutes⁩ ago
  Vigilantism is horrible, and it’s it’s a symptom of a system that is failing. It means people feel that other non-violent options don’t work.
  
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- theneverfox@pawb.social ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  The way I see it, this was just another shooting. Except, instead of targeting innocents or literal children, it was someone who actually played some part in making them so desperate
  
  And in the first 48 hours, the adjuster did more to shake the health insurance racket than decades of the public demanding change.
  
  They say we need the rule of law, otherwise we just have mob rule… But maybe it’s worth wondering if mob rule isn’t as bad as it’s cracked up to be
  
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  - Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    It’s been said that those that make change via peaceful means impossible, invite violence.
    
    I don’t like that someone was shot, but this is the direction we’re heading unless we can get this fixed.
    
    It’s not just health care either, it’s every large corporation trying to get more from their employees and more from their customers without giving back anything in exchange … or realizing that they have enough.
    
    The infinite growth mindset is out of control and ridiculous.
    
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  - Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    I’d argue that this wasn’t mob rule. It’s not like a chaotic group that went a too far. This was a targetted attack on an evil aggressor. This was the people getting a little bit of justice.
    
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- zkfcfbzr@lemmy.world ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  I’ll go a step further and say that, while I agree that vigilantism in general is bad for society, I don’t think that’s a universal truth. Targets and motives and effects matter. Sometimes vigilantism is both necessary and good. And that happens when the system itself becomes badly biased against true justice - where things are so bad that the people perpetrating the mass injustices aren’t even considered to be breaking the law, let alone just not being prosecuted for it. Not to Godwin things so quickly on purpose, but it would have been considered vigilantism to kill nazis as a German citizen in the 30’s and 40’s. I think most people today would agree that it would nonetheless have been completely justified. I’m not saying we’re that far gone just yet - but I’m saying when things get to the point where vigilante justice is the only justice, and when the system itself is structured to support injustice…
  
  I’m also not sure what Luigi did fits a strict definition of 'vigilantism", but that’s kind of irrelevant to the point. In a way he’s kind of an anti-vigilante? Using crime to handle horrible people who technically aren’t legally criminals?
  
  Either way, there are a lot of things deeply wrong with the US currently, on a systematic level, and it’s clear to almost everybody that the justice and healthcare systems are are major parts of that unwellness. The system as a whole has been getting worse and worse for decades. It’s frankly surprising that it took this long for something like this to happen - but I’m sure it won’t be the last time.
  
  It’s clear that a lot of people are feeling the same sort of way - it’s not often that a law-abiding citizen is publicly murdered and the nation, as a whole, celebrates and sends their well-wishes to the shooter. People wouldn’t react that way if they already felt the system was serving justice acceptably.
  
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  - Kecessa@sh.itjust.works ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    The US spent trillions to chase one guy who caused less US citizen deaths than this CEO.
    
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- illi@lemm.ee ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  It’s very much in the “cool motive, still murder” category. I’m not living in the US but I heard the healthcare horror stories and I can relate to someone just snapping. He who sows wind, reaps the whirlwind.
  
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  - IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    Its more in the catagory of “killing the murderer of my child”, but replace child with millions of US residents who couldn’t afford treatments due to arbitrary denial of coverage
    
    It may be murder, but this then brings the question: “Should a jury be allowed to be have the instruction of, not only being the judge of facts, but also the judge of law?”
    
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muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
People say violence is never an option and that you should use your words. Those people are lying violence is ALWAYS and option (not always the best) this violent act of murder has done more towards equallity of healthcare for americans than thousands of people speaking could have hoped to achieve.

The french did not get liberty by asking the lords, the rich, and the king for rights. They took their liberty by forcfully exercising violence to remove the heads of the ellite.

Is murder inherently wrong? I would argue no (its ok to murder hitler etc) so where do we draw the line on accepted murder? By applying a utilitarian perspective of least harm then it could be argued that the murder of this ceo and potentially others is mortally required.

Remeber the best definition of a country is the group who holds a monopoly power for a specific area. Violence is the only message that has reliably worked throughout history.

Ps. I do not support or encourage anyone in enacting violence upon anyone else.

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- independantiste@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  
  this violent act of murder has done more towards equallity of healthcare for americans than thousands of people speaking could have hoped to achieve.
  
  What exactly did it do to help with the equality situation? It’s delusional to think UHC hasn’t simply replaced its CEO and increased security. Business as usual.
  
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  - Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    It has united the people in two ways.
    
    Yes, we all are suffering in the same ways and for the same reasons (oppression by the ruling class).
    
    Here we collectively see a solution.
    
    The killing of this CEO did very little directly. But indirectly it unified the people, and that is a big big thing.
    
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- YungOnions@sh.itjust.works ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  I think the issue I’ve been grappling with is, where do we draw the line as to what is an ‘acceptable’ murder? Like what if another Healthcare CEO is killed, but they’re violently knifed to death? Are we still celebrating then? What if they’re shot, but raped first? Are we still printing t-shirts? What if they’re shot, but so is their family? What if innocent passers by also get caught in the cross fire? Do we still cheer for them? What level of mental gymnastics do we have to do to justify something as ‘justice’ vs just plain old ‘murder?’ Where does this take us? Where does that reasoning end?
  
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  - TheButtonJustSpins@infosec.pub ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    Knifed to death is still good. The others are two-parters and should generally be avoided if possible.
    
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  - muntedcrocodile@lemm.ee ⁨12⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    Its a classic conundrum and one you have to decide for yourself based on your own morals. I tend to take a ends justify means approach to things but that has been critiqued extensively by people far smarter than I.
    
    These ceos are responsible for killing thousands of people and will kill thousands more in the future. The maths would argue that any action that reduces harm in the future is justified. That then changes ur question into one of what do u value more? Thousands of people dying preventable deaths due to corporate greed or another healthcare ceo being violently stabbed to death after being raped and their family shot and innocent bystanders getting shot?
    
    There is no right answer. All u can do is decide for yourself in a manner u believe is congruent with ur personal morality.
    
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NateNate60@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
As for your family discussion, generally it’s advised to avoid bringing up controversial topics because it almost never ends well.

That being said, I’ve found that the following statement is pretty universally agreeable:

Thompson led a company that was number one in the industry in denying coverage for routine and life-saving healthcare to people who had paid good money for and were legally entitled to coverage, meaning it’s almost certain that multiple people have died as a result of the policies he oversaw the execution of in the name of profit. So while I don’t condone murder as a method to solve problems with the healthcare system, it’s difficult for me to feel any sympathy for the victim.

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- TheButtonJustSpins@infosec.pub ⁨9⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Plus, you can’t deny the results; insurance claims immediately started being approved at higher rates.
  
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  - DirigibleProtein@aussie.zone ⁨7⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    Not disagreeing, but do you have sources? I wouldn’t even know where to start looking.
    
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IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
On Lemmy?

Lemmy has a bias against the ceo so you’ll just have a thread of everyone (including me) agreeing with the sentinment that the ceo deserved it, so it wouldn’t really be a debate.

Reddit will have less of a bias, but then reddit doesn’t really like you talking about this topic, and your thread will mysteriously get deleted. Honestly I’m not sure theres really a place on the internet where you actually have an unbiased audience to debate this, and not get censored. You’ll have to look IRL for people to debate.

You can try !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world

or !AskUSA@discuss.online

but, again, you’ll get a very biased audience

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- SparrowHawk@feddit.it ⁨10⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Reddit definetely has a bias, just not the same as lemmy
  
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  - Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    Reddit the company does. Reddit’s users are celebrating with the rest of the country while their posts get deleted.
    
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- GrammarPolice@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  AskUSA is actually going to be terrible for that, as it will just be biased sentiments. It will be better to discuss in a place that contains both US and non-US views.
  
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SparrowHawk@feddit.it ⁨13⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
Would you kill a mass muderer? Because that’s what an insurance CEO is. I’d argue the existenc3 of any millionaire CEO begets mass social murder

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- jagged_circle@feddit.nl ⁨5⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Its called an execution, not a murder. A murder is a crime.
  
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- independantiste@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Except that’s false because he did not murder anyone (that we know of). Be angry at the system and the government allowing it to exist not the ones using it as intended. Much of what I see here is jealousy of millionaires and virtue signalling instead of people truly suggesting change. Anyone here can start any business, go start a fair insurance business, no one’s preventing you, and that will actually help the issue instead of crying online
  
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  - SparrowHawk@feddit.it ⁨4⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    “Go start a fair insurance business”
    
    I cannot fathom how you can believe what you are writing.
    
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  - explodicle@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    There are actually very high barriers to entry in the insurance and health care markets (which in the USA are tightly intertwined).
    
    The health insurance industry doesn’t want there to be fair alternatives because then everyone would buy that instead. This is an oligarchy, not a democracy.
    
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GrammarPolice@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
actual_discussion@lemmy.world. Let’s get that community back up and running

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- Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  I think maybe the period at the end is messing up that link.
  
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  - GrammarPolice@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
    Are you sure? Works fine on my end. I’ve edited it though
    
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- Blaze@feddit.org ⁨6⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
  Good idea
  
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teawrecks@lemmy.world ⁨14⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago
i would also like to know a place to chat on this

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