So is Israel just going to finish Palestine off?

Comments

• yggstyle@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  This may not be a popular response but when did the nazi regime stop? When did China stop with it’s cleansing? America and manifest destiny? I could go on… Humanity needs to realize that we are pretty shitty in general and can’t be trusted when it comes to hatred, entitlement, and tribalism.

  The solution is a neutral third party with sufficient power to stop any country’s bullshit through economic and military (actual) peacekeeping… which doesn’t exist nor will it ever.

  So the short answer is they will stop when the cleansing is complete.

  After the deed is done we as ‘civilized’ nations will lament the tragedy and promise change… until the media cycle washes all those sins down the drain and it will be forgotten until next time.

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  • Surp@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I am in no way saying what’s going on is right…anytime massive amounts of life is taken it’s horrible. With that being said you realize that there isn’t a single country in the entire world that wasn’t built on the blood of others? Every civilization that’s here now destroyed some other one. People act like they live in some place that asked nicely to have the land they have.

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    • yggstyle@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Oh, I’m fully aware. Tribalism is the lizard brain going deeeep in the paint. The problem is this: peaceful culture doesn’t fight back - aggressive culture exploits this: which one thrives? We have systematically bred for and codified our warlike nature. This is the result. Is it fixable? Many have tried. Our history books are littered with both failed attempts and their distorted remains. All I can say for certain is that the way the majority of countries are structured… isn’t it. This is fundamentally why achieving a fix is nearly impossible at scale: tribalism. Even if we are wrong it’s our wrong and we don’t want to lose it. This is rooted in fear of change which from a survival aspect makes sense… but becomes detrimental at scale.

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    • thesporkeffect@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      No. Moral. States

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  • NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    party with sufficient power to stop any country’s bullshit through

    No. That would not be a solution for anything! That would just be an even bigger threat to humanity.

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    • yggstyle@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I disagree. It’s about execution - creating an environment that is resistant to corrosion. A standing force can absolutely be viewed in that manner - which is why it cannot be a single static standing force.

      The UN is the right idea but it needs teeth. And it needs the teeth to be double sided. If boots are on the ground peacekeeping they should be without bias and secondary interest. An attack on a peacekeeper has no guarantee of the creed nor country of origin of that keeper.

      Peacekeeping should be like a draft. Every country that participates must provide and maintain a set number of rolling participants. These people will serve and train initially in humanitarian deployments with others… half way through their ‘term’ they should be moved to peacekeeping duties. This is idealized but would be good for both building trust amongst peacekeepers and goodwill towards them. This solves the military portion (roughly) - I have a lot of thoughts on this and believe it to be solvable… it just won’t be. No country gets to benefit therefore it has no merit.

      That covered the military side… when talking about the economic side: the peacekeepers (let’s say un for simplicity) carry the ability to (by vote) censure a country and cut it off from direct trade / support. At that time any trade is then routed through the UN and it becomes the middleman. This allows economic pressures to be precisely controlled on an area. Once that country falls in line, by majority vote, operations are restored. Once again this is idealized and has no obviously advantaged party … so it has no merit and will never occur.

      Basically everyone is equally held accountable and equally invested. Of course this means everyone gets a seat at the table and everyone gets one vote. I’m certain we can already see why this has 0 chance of ever happening. Those in power seek to keep it - very few will willingly give some away.

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  • YourPrivatHater@ani.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    This is the most reasonable approach, but as seen with the UN, wich as the sum of its parts failed to keep dictatorships out wich now basically control everything but the security Council and the ICJ, its a Utopist approach sadly. There cant be a peace unless Israel takes over Palestine and treats the people that live there now as equal (wich they do already btw, the myth about apartheid is BS there are many Arab Palestinians living in Israel and many went to work in Israel from gaza) but the problem with the surrounding terrorists is another problem.

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    • Carrolade@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      The claim of Israeli apartheid does not pertain to the status of Israeli Arabs fyi. It pertains to de facto Israeli control of Gaza and the West Bank, where any time they want the IDF can exercise as much control as they want, by virtue of superior firepower.

      Hamas, for instance, only persisted because the Israelis allowed it. Israel controlled the majority of access to the regions, and could and did unilaterally police them with military force at will.

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    • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      The Apartheid is very much real, and, while to a much lesser extent than the Palestinian Occupied Territories, also applies to the Palestinian Citizens of Israel

      Socio-economic gaps between Palestinian and Jewish Israeli citizens are the result of discriminatory policies pursued over decades. Historically, Israel prevented its Palestinian citizens from accessing livelihoods under its 18-year-long military rule, and used them, at different times, as a source of cheap labour in order to preserve the interests of the Jewish majority. In addition to cruel land seizures, other discriminatory policies have led to Palestinians’ social and economic deprivation: the exclusion of Palestinian localities from high priority areas for development, the discriminatory allocation of land and water for agriculture as well as discriminatory planning and zoning, and the failure to implement major infrastructure development projects in Palestinian communities.

      The blockade and Israel’s repeated military offensives have had a heavy toll on Gaza’s essential infrastructure and further debilitated its health system and economy, leaving the area in a state of perpetual humanitarian crisis. Indeed, Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza’s civilian population, the majority of whom are children, has created conditions inimical to human life due to shortages of housing, potable water and electricity, and lack of access to essential medicines and medical care, food, educational equipment and building materials.

      • Amnesty International Report pg 26-27

      Other reports about how Israel is an Apartheid State:

      Human Rights Watch Report

      B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer

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    • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      UN, which… failed to keep dictatorships out

      The UN while created with noble intentions certainly fell for the paradox of tolerance. They tolerate the dictatorships and human rights abusers because if they didn’t they’d be much less empowered to take action against them, or worse they’d form their own competing UN made up of nations motivated to join them and you’d just end up with another NATO and Warsaw Pact for example. It’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

      Ultimately the challenge comes down to how do you ultimately tame the leaders of the world who have absolute power. The founding fathers of America thought they had the solution with democracy and the many checks and balances they implemented into this new form of government they setup, but even that has its challenges and failures that they never could have forseen. The UN was the next experiment, trying to take the similar principles onto the world stage, and it’s been less successful (but at least has had some successes)

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  • SurpriZe@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Options for this third party?

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    • Soggy@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Aliens.

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• southsamurai@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Well, yeah. That’s the idea. Why would they go this far and not go all the way? They know damn good and well that as long as they keep things just barely on the end where genocide isn’t stated as a goal, and they maintain a position of alliance with most of the west, nobody is going to actually stop them.

  Hell, without starting a world war, I’m not even sure they can be stopped.

  On the world stage? There aren’t enough nations with power that actually care about Palestine. Yeah, leaders will make noise and pretend to care, but Palestine offers nothing to the major powers worth intervening for.

  Sounds sociopathic, right? That’s the leaders of most of the world. People drawn to power rarely have the ethical rigor to wield said power. Those that do, still have to deal with oligopoly, hidden fascists, and the reality that no nation can really take action without upsetting the whole damn thing.

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  • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Palestine: declares war, explicitly calls for genocide, asks muslims to murder Jews everywhere, calls other countries to invade Israel, invades Israeli towns, commits terrorist attacks against civilians, massacres entire families, rapes women, launches tens of thousands of missiles, broke ceasefire agreements they asked for (twice), takes hundreds of hostages, openly celebrate the attacks on the streets, parade around the corpses of the naked victims, shows zero remorse, refuses every peace deal, vows to do it all again.

    Israel: fights back

    Idiots: tHaT’s LiTerAlLy GeNoCiDe

    Actually brain dead

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    • southsamurai@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Go screw

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  • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Actually that’s not true, the muslim Arab countries went to great lengths to intervene and support the Palestinians. From starting coalition wars that sought to destroy Israel to organized boycotts and sanctions by the muslim world to placing diplomatic pressure on the West to put out peace proposals to giving them billions in aid annually. They tried everything, but every time, the Palestinian leadership has insulted them, backstabbed them, lied to them, or squandered their efforts away. For example:

    Jordan - Took part in coalition wars, took them in as refugees… but Palestinians used this as an opportunity to try to overthrow the Kingdom by assassinating officials and committing terrorist attacks. It was so bad that these events became known as black September.

    Egypt - Took part in the coalition wars, tried to diplomatically support Palestine, and took them in as refugees… but the Palestinians also took this as an opportunity to try and overthrow the Egyptian government multiple times. It got so bad that Egypt had to join Israel in their blockade.

    Kuwait - provided military, economic, and political support as well as took them in as refugees… but the Palestinians openly celebrated and supported Iraq’s invasion in the 90s under Saddam Hussein. It got so bad that Kuwait kicked out all 350,000 Palestinian nationals from it’s territory.

    Syria - Took part in the coalition wars, provided diplomatic support, and took them as refugees… but the Palestinians ended up trying to overthrow the government during the Syrian civil war. It got so bad that Bashar Al Assad pretty much severed relations with them.

    Saudi Arabia - I don’t even need to say anything here, they literally released a 3 part documentary (that I highly recommend) that goes through everything they did to support the Palestinians and what they did in return. Here’s part 1:

    m.youtube.com/watch?v=edKZbu5OM1c

    I could keep going, but I think you get the idea. There’s a reason why all these countries are starting to recognize Israel now. They tried everything in their power to act on the behalf and in the best interest of Palestine, but in the end their efforts just blew back in their faces

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• Monument@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Yeah - it’s about regional control, and defensive positions.

  This comment is sort of a continuation of this one, but not exactly. (Sorry about the link to my instance, I’m new and don’t know how to do the thing.)

  The U.S. has long needed a bully in the area to prevent the Middle East from being too unified, so the west can get relatively inexpensive access to its oil.

  The state of play right now is that the U.S. actually produces enough petroleum for its own needs, but our western allies do not, and supplying them with enough oil will raise the cost to an unacceptable level/a level where they’ll have to channel money to the Middle East (which hates the U.S. for its meddling, or to Russia, which also hates the U.S.)

  In about 10-15 years, technology and renewables will advance to a point where oil demand is going to have decreased to the point where the U.S. can supply all of its needs and those of its western allies without jacking the price up.

  That means the U.S. won’t need a bully. But it will mean that the U.S. will cut funding to Israel, and more or less stop coming to their defense. Israel’s plan is to push out every non-Jew, using Zionism as an excuse for awful statecraft, and they’re going to push their borders to easily defensible geographic areas.
  Once they do that, they’re going to basically become North Korea of the Middle East - armed to the teeth and hard to get into. Because if they don’t, everyone they’ve been bullying for the past hundred years (yes, this started before the declaration of statehood), is going to wipe them from the map - potentially leading to them launching the nukes they keep pretending they don’t have, so they don’t have to undergo international monitoring.

  Assuming, of course, the plot by other countries to destabilize the U.S. fails and U.S. is still major player by the time Israel’s plan is accomplished. If the destabilization effort succeeds, we may see a full scale war against Israel before their aims are achieved.

  That’s my take on it, anyway. They won’t stop because they don’t think they can stop, due to how horrible they’ve been. (At the behest of the U.S., who will begin dropping them once their usefulness has ended.)

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  • grrgyle@slrpnk.net ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Reminds of the accounts of people who owned enslaved people being afraid to let them go because of how they thought once freed they would turn around and slaughter their former “masters” because how could they not.

    Except that didn’t happen.

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    • Monument@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      A bunch of folks without many rights, property, education, or jobs in a country where they are basically hostages is quite different than Iran.

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  • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    The U.S. has long needed a bully in the area to prevent the Middle East from being too unified, so the west can get relatively inexpensive access to its oil.

    Is there any evidence to directly prove this claim? This sounds like a made up justification to validate your own opinions. The Middle East isn’t divided by the US, it’s divided by its own history of imperialism, colonization, oppression and violence based on religious and ethnic lines accross the centuries. There’s really no incentive for the US keep the Middle East divided, not to mention that oil producing countries are already united through OPEC.

    Besides, why would the US need a bully when it’s directly allied with Gulf states? Not only that but those states are also allied with Israel. Who exactly is bullying who? The only agreed upon bully in the region is Iran, it’s actually the uniting factor between the Gulf states and the Israelis. Not to mention that the US doesn’t need a bully because it’s more than capable of doing what it wants.

    The state of play right now is that the U.S. actually produces enough petroleum for its own needs, but our western allies do not, and supplying them with enough oil will raise the cost to an unacceptable level/a level where they’ll have to channel money to the Middle East (which hates the U.S. for its meddling, or to Russia, which also hates the U.S.)

    You understand that it’s not only American allies that rely on Middle Eastern oil, right? China, India, Southeast Asia, and so on all rely on Middle Eastern oil and they all have a vested interest in keeping it flowing. If anything, the US is incentivized to sell its own oil since it’s a net exporter.

    In about 10-15 years, technology and renewables will advance to a point where oil demand is going to have decreased to the point where the U.S. can supply all of its needs and those of its western allies without jacking the price up.

    Again, is there any source that backs up this prediction?

    But it will mean that the U.S. will cut funding to Israel, and more or less stop coming to their defense.

    This idea that Israel only exists due to US funding is a myth. Israel won all its major wars by itself and it has one of the world’s largest and most resilient economies. US aid, which is almost entirely in the form of loans or weapons contracts, account for less than 1% of Israel’s GDP.

    Israel’s plan is to push out every non-Jew, using Zionism as an excuse for awful statecraft, and they’re going to push their borders to easily defensible geographic areas.

    20% of Israel’s citizens aren’t Jewish. Also do you even know what Zionism is?

    Because if they don’t, everyone they’ve been bullying for the past hundred years (yes, this started before the declaration of statehood), is going to wipe them from the map - potentially leading to them launching the nukes they keep pretending they don’t have, so they don’t have to undergo international monitoring.

    This is historically illiterate point of view. First of all, Israel isn’t the bully in this conflict, especially before statehood. If you look at the actual history, you’ll how muslims in the region collaborated with the Nazis to help eradicate the Jews during WWII or how the Arab world rejected the 1947 UN peace plan and invaded Israel with the intention to destroy it or again in 1967 during the six day war or again in 1973 Yom Kippur war or the 1920 Nebi Musa riots against Jews in Jerusalem or the 1921 Jaffa riots or the Jaffa deportations by the Ottomans in 1917 or the 1929 riots and massacres (including the Hebron Massacre which destroyed the ancient community there) or the insane number of Palestinian terrorist groups and their attacks on civilians. The number is comically large that there are entire databases dedicated just recording all of them:

    https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/comprehensive-listing-of-terrorism-victims-in-israel

    Hell, even Wikipedia can’t fit all of them in a single article:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Terrorist_incidents_in_Israel_by_year

    Ffs, the Palestinian leadership at the time, which is arguably the foundation of the modern Palestinian national identity, literally cooperated with the Nazis to a comical degree. The leader at the time, Amin al-Husseini, and his administration literally flew out to Germany and personally met with Hitler. There they both expressed praise and support for each other, and declared desire for cooperation to reach their mutual goals of defeating the British and genociding the Jews. Amin al-Husseini directly told Hitler that Jews shouldn’t get a national home, that they were natural allies in their fight against the Jews, and that Fascism is a righteous ideology. Hitler was so impressed that he called him the most important leader in the Middle East and an Aryan because he was white, blone, and had blue eyes. The thing is that muslims at home celebrated the new ties with the axis powers and cooperation between went through the roof. The Palestinian identity was quite literally founded on antisemitism.

    Do I need to keep going? I hope not. Keep in mind, this is all history. You can look all of this up yourself to verify.

    we may see a full scale war against Israel before their aims are achieved.

    We have already seen this play out at least three times. All of these wars were coalition wars provoked by the muslim Arabs seeking the full destruction of Israel, and every time Israel won.

    That’s my take on it, anyway. They won’t stop because they don’t think they can stop, due to how horrible they’ve been.

    What a bad take. The reason they’re still fighting is because they’re still being attacked.

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    • Monument@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Oooh. I attracted a 1-day old account that conveniently doesn’t know about U.S. statecraft toward the Middle East for the last 70 years, doesn’t know about the long history of arms transfers to Israel, doesn’t know about the Balfour Declaration, the Jewish terrorism against Britain and Palestine until Britain left the area, or the genocides that happened as soon as Britain stopped offering protection to the Palestinians. You conveniently seem to fail to understand geopolitics in any meaningful contexts.
      And then you “Source?” my (very well informed) opinions.

      lol. No. Don’t waste my time.

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    • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      The Middle East isn’t divided by the US, it’s divided by its own history of imperialism, colonization, oppression and violence based on religious and ethnic lines accross the centuries. There’s really no incentive for the US keep the Middle East divided, not to mention that oil producing countries are already united through OPEC.

      Ahh yes. The Middle Easts own history. Clearly has nothing to do with French, British or US being the colonizing entities… And after all why would the US be interested in dividing a region that is connecting 3 continents and has the mos accessible of the main strategic ressources of the past two centuries.

      And of course all the plans of the US that specifically talked about destroying nations like Iraq and Syria and the invasion of Iraq to do exactly that… All coincidences! Who would be so mean to assume this to be part of larger strategies?

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  • MonkderDritte@feddit.de ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    and supplying them with enough oil will raise the cost to an unacceptable level

    That would actually be good, so EV and plastic alternatives get better chances.

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    • Monument@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I don’t deny that. I really can’t wait for the transition away from petroleum.

      But … power, and the economy is power. Sigh. The U.S. gets billions for its oil.

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  • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Your take makes a lot of sense but I do wonder how advantageous israel really is anymore. In the past it was an easy base but we control Saudi, UAE etc now.

    It feels like people downplay how much our policitians are in israels pocket. AIPAC is flaunting publicly that they practically own all American politicians.

    Even when being utterly worthless israel might be able to keep American taxpayer dollars flowing to them by bribing politicians.

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    • Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      It feels like people downplay how much our policitians are in israels pocket. AIPAC is flaunting publicly that they practically own all American politicians.

      I find it wild that people say this so openly now, when before Oct 7 saying something like this would get you branded as a neo-Nazi. AIPAC being a massively powerful lobby is nothing new, it’s just socially acceptable to oppose them now.

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    • Monument@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      That’s also highly valid, and not something I factor heavily into my thoughts about the future of U.S. support.

      Shit. Huh. I gotta rethink that.

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  • ImDankMom@lemdro.id ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    .

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    • ImDankMom@lemdro.id ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      comment was too long

      [Comment 4] You are completely and utterly confused and mistaken about everything that you just said. I wish I could help you, but the best I can offer is to stop offering opinions on topics that you know nothing about. How is it so impossible for you to respond to the words I have already written down? You have repeatedly stated that the US has been intentionally destabilizing the Middle East. Now you state that: >The U.S. has a vested interest in keeping Middle East oil flowing and cheap until it’s no longer needed >a stable oil market means a healthy economy and unchanged projection of geopolitical power for the U.S., yes? I know, I literally just explained that fact to you. How is Middle East oil going to keep flowing cheaply if the US destabilizes the region and causes wars and conflict? Please explain how that makes sense to you. You think that oil becomes cheaper when the country is at war? Wtf are you smoking? Please, for the love of God, respond to my argument instead of going on some tangent about how the Hebrews were enslaved in the Old Testament or some shit. Confront your own ignorance. >Oh! The Wikipedia article says that the U.S. provided significant help to Israel. They said Israel won those on their own. Nah. They did alright in ‘67, fully stocked with U.S. weapons, because they knew it was coming. And in 73, the U.S. had to execute operation Nickel Grass to bail Israel out. Lmfao this would be funny if it weren’t so worrying for the future of humanity. The Yom Kippur war began when Egypt and Syria, supported by auxiliary forces from Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Iraq, Algeria, Libya, Kuwait, Tunisia, Morocco, Cuba, and North Korea, launched a surprise attack on Israel on the Holy day of Yom Kippur, October 6th, 1973. The Arabic forces were supplied with weapons by their Soviet allies, and Israel was supplied by their American allies. Just in case you can’t count, that’s 12 Arabic and communist states versus Israel alone, with the advantage of surprise. Israel proceeded to absolutely rout the opposing forces in a matter of weeks. >After three days of heavy fighting, Israel halted the Egyptian offensive, resulting in a military stalemate on that front, and pushed the Syrians back to the pre-war ceasefire lines. The Israeli military then launched a four-day-long counter-offensive deep into Syria, and within a week Israeli artillery began to shell the outskirts of the Syrian capital of Damascus. Egyptian forces meanwhile pushed for two strategic mountain passes deeper within the Sinai Peninsula but were repulsed, and Israeli forces counter-attacked by crossing the Suez Canal into Egypt and advancing towards Suez City. On 22 October, an initial ceasefire brokered by the United Nations unravelled, with each side blaming the other for the breach. >By 24 October, the Israelis had improved their positions considerably and completed their encirclement of the Egyptian Third Army and Suez City, bringing them within 100 kilometres (62 mi) of the Egyptian capital of Cairo. Your argument is that the US provided significant help to Israel and they wouldn’t have been able to win without the US. It was a fucking surprise attack and they were able to turn the tide within three days. That not even enough time for supplies to get shipped into Israel from the States. Guess what else? The Soviet Union provided more help to Syria and Egypt than the US did to Israel, as it stated in the Wikipedia article which you linked, but apparently didn’t take the time to read. >In the end, the military airlift shipped 22,325 tons of materiel to Israel. Additionally, the U.S. conducted its own seaborne re-supply operation, delivering 33,210 tons to Israel by 30 October.[17] During the same general time, the Soviets airlifted 12,500–15,000 tons of supplies, more than half of which went to Syria; they also supplied another 63,000 tons mainly to Syria by means of a sealift. 66,00 tons of material from the Soviets versus 55,000 tons from the USA. Please stop spreading propaganda; you’re just a happy idiot, but bad actors move people like you around like pawns on a chessboard. Hamas is playing you like a fiddle and you don’t even realize. >They did alright in ‘67, fully stocked with U.S. weapons, because they knew it was coming. I don’t know how to explain this to you, but the fact that they didn’t know it was coming in 73, or many times since then, is exactly why they have some moral ground to stand on. Invading another nation without declaring war in advance is barbaric and cowardly. Regardless of any other opinions that you hold, surely we can agree that any military action should be announced in advance and directed towards military targets? I don’t believe that any civilized person can fail to understand that principle. If armed conflict is inevitable, at least give forewarning and let the defenseless women, children, and elderly get to safety. Israel does that. Hamas does the exact opposite. They go out of their way to attack defenseless Israeli civilians and they actively put their own civilians in harms way so that they can use their preventable deaths for political maneuvering. Absolutely disgusting, indefensible behavior.

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• bartolomeo@suppo.fi ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Yes, they usually do it slowly to avoid suspicion but when the situation is convenient they go ahead and take a big bite out of Palestine.

  Image

  That’s how they have been operating, even before the establishment of Israel:

  Before the 1948 Arab-Israeli War broke out, the Carmeli Brigade’s 21 Battalion commander had repeatedly damaged the Al-Kabri aqueduct that furnished Acre with water, and when Arab repairs managed to restore water supply, then resorted to pouring flasks of typhoid and dysentery bacteria into the aqueduct, as part of a biological warfare programme. At some time in late April or early May 1948, - Jewish forces had cut the town’s electricity supply responsible for pumping water - a typhoid epidemic broke out. Israeli officials later credited the facility with which they conquered the town in part to the effects of the demoralization induced by the epidemic.[54]

  Israel’s Carmeli forces attacked on May 16 and, after an ultimatum was delivered that, unless the inhabitants surrendered, ‘we will destroy you to the last man and utterly,’[55] the town notables signed an instrument of surrender on the night between 17–18 May 1948. 60 bodies were found and about three-quarters of the Arab population of the city (13,510 of 17,395) were displaced.[56]

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre,_Israel#1948_Palestine_War

  It is evident that that is their modus operandi because now Gaza’s water system is destroyed, and I suspect they will take Gaza just like they took Akka.

  Israel taking over Palestine has been the plan since the beginning, as the founding fathers of Israel themselves announced:

  Zionist leaders, in particular David Ben-Gurion, viewed the acceptance of the [United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine] as a tactical step and a stepping stone to future territorial expansion over all of Palestine.

  Then they started.

  Between 1947 and 1949, at least 750,000 Palestinians from a 1.9 million population were made refugees beyond the borders of the state. Zionist forces had taken more than 78 percent of historic Palestine, ethnically cleansed and destroyed about 530 villages and cities, and killed about 15,000 Palestinians in a series of mass atrocities, including more than 70 massacres.

  All the theatrics about Israel’s right to defend itself etc. are just cover for the long history of horrible crimes and human rights violations Israel has perpetrated (and continues to perpetrate). There is a reason that people are mad at Israel, and it has nothing to do with being Jewish.

  So yea, Israel is going to continue overtaking Palestine, unless they start being held to international law like everyone else. Germany and USA impede on that process, but hopefully the rule of law will triumph because

  Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

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• alvvayson@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  For decades, Israel and the US (and European countries) have pursued a policy to destabilize middle eastern regimes.

  People don’t realize this, but there was a wave of Arab nationalism that was killed by sponsoring Islamic extremists. Had that not happened, the middle east would be much more secular today than it is.

  Israel attacking and destabilizing Lebanon and Syria and the US maintaining a dictator in Egypt are part of this strategy.

  In turn, this leads to hate towards the West and Israel by the Muslims affected.

  It won’t stop as long as American voters care much more about gas prices than about human rights. American politicians are willing to sponsor genocide to have some control on oil prices in order to win elections.

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  • NoiseColor@startrek.website ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    You are not giving Arabs any credit for the current situation? Thats almost racist 😁

    America cares less today about oil as it is self reliant.

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    • alvvayson@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Americans still care about the price of oil, which is set in a global market and where Saudi-Arabia and Russia have more influence than the USA.

      Obviously, the extremist Arabs that overthrew their own leaders are also to blame. Where did I deny that?

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    • orrk@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      To be fair, how many secular leaders can you assassinate before they stop?

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  • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    It won’t stop as long as American voters care much more about gas prices than about human rights. American politicians are willing to sponsor genocide to have some control on oil prices in order to win elections.

    Who should we vote for to stop what’s going on? Please, enlighten me.

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    • alvvayson@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I don’t think you really have a lot of choices to be honest.

      You’d first need to get new candidates to win a primary and then a general and the required majorities are lacking almost everywhere.

      A more fruitful approach is to actually change public opinion.

      It’s a long uphill battle, but it’s happening.

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    • Kecessa@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Sanders

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  • YourPrivatHater@ani.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    For decades, Israel and the US (and European countries) have pursued a policy to destabilize middle eastern regimes.

    You are aware that china and Russia do that even more. Supporting Terrorism, supporting Iran and their nuclear shitshow blaming everything on the west especially Israel… You get the point.

    People don’t realize this, but there was a wave of Arab nationalism that was killed by sponsoring Islamic extremists. Had that not happened, the middle east would be much more secular today than it is.

    Most of the terrorists, especially ISIS have not been supported by outside of middle east, but where fueled from within middle east because governments do government stuff. Hamas and Hezbolla are similar cases, especially because the antisemitism unites most of the Islamic countries against Israel

    Israel attacking and destabilizing Lebanon and Syria and the US maintaining a dictator in Egypt are part of this strategy.

    Hezbolla (Lebanon and Egypt) is constantly shooting rockets into residential areas and targeting hospitals. So Israel has a very very solid reason to strike them. And the Egyptian dictatorship is a dictatorship but one that at least on surface fights those terrorists, wich would probably gain majority in a democratic election… Like what happened in Gaza…

    In turn, this leads to hate towards the West and Israel by the Muslims affected.

    No the antisemitism in nowadays Islam was caused by Nazi Germanys propaganda into middle east. The anti west thing by the Soviet union. But yes its not helping to reduce the hate, but at this point there is no way to reduce this unless we would abolish Israel wich is absolutely not an option.

    It won’t stop as long as American voters care much more about gas prices than about human rights. American politicians are willing to sponsor genocide to have some control on oil prices in order to win elections.

    I haven’t seen USA sponsoring hamas or hezbolla and it will not stop ever, especially because even if you leave Israel to the terrorist, when they are done there you get to be the next target. There is no other way than to fight such groups.

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  • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Israel bombs Lebanon because Hezbollah keeps committing terrorist attacks and launching missles from there, the same goes for Syria. Also, in what universe is helping keeping countries stable like Egypt destabilizing? You people are mind numbingly ignorant. The middle east was never secular or stable, it was always religiously extremist, violent, and oppressive. There was a slight blip in secularism during the British and French mandates and slightly afterwards, but as time moved on, the region just went back to the way it used to. What we view as islamic extremism is just normal islam. Secular muslims aren’t a thing. They’re considered extremely liberal and westernized in islamic countries.

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• homura1650@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  The Israeli government has no idea what it is doing. Literally. The current government was a barely held together coalition prior to October 7. In the direct aftermath, they formed a unity government and war cabinet that collapsed last week.

  Their prime minister has been indicated on corruption and bribertmy charges, which are currently on hold for obvious reasons. By most indications his primary motivation in this matter is to stay in power himself, with Israel’s national interests being secondary.

  Individual members of IDF leadership have called Israel’s stated objectives “unachievable”.

  Israel simultaneously wants to live in peace as a liberal Jewish state without commiting any form of ethnic clensing; and achieve its manifest destiny of establishing a Jewish theocracy across Judea and Samaria.

  These are deep questions that get to the core of what Israel is and stands for. Questions that are to be answered by the Israeli constitution in the 50s. That never happened because Israel was never able to agree on a constitution [0].

  Right now, Israel is just reacting, without any long term strategic vision. Various factions are trying to use that chaos to advance their own long term vision.

  [0] Which led to the big judicial reform constitutional crisis that was a giant political crisis before October.

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  • istanbullu@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Israel knows what it is doing. They have been very consistent about it for more than 80 years.

    They will kill every Palestinian an Palestine, and they will try to kill eveyone in the vicinity who is not jewish. It a country of religious fanatics who use 3000 year old fairy tales to justify their actions.

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    • StaySquared@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      “mowing the lawn” as the Israelis call it.

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    • homura1650@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      If that were the case then they would have written that into their constitution 70 years ago. And they wouldn’t have assasinated their own prime minister 30 years ago.

      Heck, the current minisyet of national security Ben-Gvir was rejecting from mandatory constriction by the IDF, and convicted in an Israeli court of supporting (Jewish) terrorism after being indigted by an Israeli prosecutor.

      These are not things that happen in a country that is unified in its goals.

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  • samus12345@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Israel simultaneously wants to live in peace as a liberal Jewish state without committing any form of ethnic cleansing; and achieve its manifest destiny of establishing a Jewish theocracy across Judea and Samaria.

    A country at war with itself, much like the US.

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• olafurp@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  What kind of bubble do you live in? If you take 2 million people, close their airspace, ports and land borders they’re not going to be happy.

  On top of that Israel does the following:

  • imprison kids for throwing rocks at soldiers wearing armor
  • take people’s houses, most recently in Sheikh Jarrah
  • Ban farmers from using water, promise water from other sources and don’t deliver.
  • Close West Bank Airport
  • Settle lands in he West Bank.
  • Make Palestinians go to Military court with 99% conviction rate instead of a civil court.
  • Administrative detetention without giving any reason. (Because classified)
  • Withold evidence from courts that’s used to convict them. (Because classified)
  • Settlements are both within the 1948 borders and even within the Olso accord Green line.
  • Beat people up and throw tear gas that go play at Al-Aqsa mosque.
  • Don’t convict any settlers of violence.
  • Fondle women at check points when they open the trunk of their cars.
  • Limit imports to single item per pallet.
  • Limit work visas.
  • Limit family reunification as a way to immigrate across the border.
  • Random checkpoints that destroy tourism such as in Jericho.
  • Open policy of disproportial response to every reaction the Palestinians have.
  • Raid refugee camps and destroy their roads like in Jenin.
  • Kill journalists that cover the story such as Shireen Abu Akleh
  • Don’t even convict the murdered because he was a soldier.
  • Oh and kill/wound 5% of Gaza, half of which are children, for good measure.

  When people are suffocating because someone has their foot on their throat they react. Nobody should be surprised that Oct 7 happened. Especially after Israel was warned many times that they would do something if they continue raiding one of the holiest sites in Islam.

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  • douglasg14b@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Literally the first thing you do on NoStupidQuestions is attack the person asking the question.

    Cmon, that’s not acceptable behavior here.

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    • olafurp@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Sorry, I meant to reply to a comment

      source
• andrewta@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  In 1948 when Israel was formed as a nation state, the borders were set at that time. It would not have been a problem but terrorists (think Hamas and other groups like that) kept going across the border into Israel and killing and committing other crimes. Israel fought back.

  As Israel fought back more cross border raids happened.

  Israel puts up the iron dome ( understandable because of the missiles being launched at them).

  Israel pushed their borders to try to get some breathing room. I disagree with their belief the area should be settled. Make it a DMZ ? Fine, that’s a legitimate usage. But to settle it? Now they are (in my opinion) expanding their territory and not creating a buffer zone.

  But I’m not sure what the answer is.

  Leave Palestine alone and allow hamas to keep doing cross border raids?

  Keep responding to the individual cross border raids and attack hamas? That doesn’t solve the problem because hamas will keep coming.

  Put other nations militaries on the border? Hamas will just call that an act of aggression by those countries and attack those militaries.

  Hamas has a belief that all Jews everywhere should be killed. So where would the Jews even go?

  Just expand their nation ( Israel) to the ocean? Ok then where do the Palestinians go?

  I’m not sure what the answer is.

  The state of Palestine was split to create two countries Palestine and Israel. Because historically that was the Jewish homeland. But how do we solve this current problem. I have no idea

  Image

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  • meldrik@lemmy.wtf ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Which neighbouring nations approved of those borders and does Israel respect those borders today?

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    • StaySquared@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      The borders were technically a theory… an idea. It wasn’t even officially established until Israel gained military might, if I remember correctly.

      source
  • istanbullu@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Israel is the terrorist. Israel was established by murdering and displacing the people who lived there.

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    • andrewta@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Yeah it would have nothing to do with the fact that after world war 2 no one would take in the Jews. So a Jewish state was created. Nah nothing to do with that at all.

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  • markko@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    You need to read more about this subject from an unbiased source.

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    • JeffreyOrange@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      For example?

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  • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Israel was formed from a combination of terrorist groups like Lehi and Irgun.

    Israel is like the power ranger form of terrorism.

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  • orrk@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    and thus you justified the 14 words.

    “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for Jewish children”

    we must slaughter Palestinians, because only then can we be safe!

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  • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Colonial league of nations declare Israeli state after later to become Israeli terrorists have terrorized Palestinians and the British troops to force them out. Palestinians are not asked on the matter if they want to give those terrorists a fascist ethnostate on their land.

    Fascist ethnostate gets declared, starts ethically cleansing hundreds of thousands of people.

    Some neighbouring countries try to prevent that.

    75 years of propaganda and brainwashing and people like you spin it like the Israelis are the victims, even while they are currently committing an even worse genocide and ethnic cleansing than they used to do back then and in between.

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  • olafurp@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    What kind of bubble do you live in? If you take 2 million people, close their airspace, ports and land borders they’re not going to be happy.

    On top of that Israel does the following:

    • imprison kids for throwing rocks at soldiers wearing armor
    • take people’s houses, most recently in Sheikh Jarrah
    • Ban farmers from using water, promise water from other sources and don’t deliver.
    • Close West Bank Airport
    • Settle lands in he West Bank.
    • Make Palestinians go to Military court with 99% conviction rate instead of a civil court.
    • Administrative detetention without giving any reason. (Because classified)
    • Withold evidence from courts that’s used to convict them. (Because classified)
    • Settlements are both within the 1948 borders and even within the Olso accord Green line.
    • Beat people up and throw tear gas that go play at Al-Aqsa mosque.
    • Don’t convict any settlers of violence.
    • Fondle women at check points when they open the trunk of their cars.
    • Limit imports to single item per pallet.
    • Limit work visas.
    • Limit family reunification as a way to immigrate across the border.
    • Random checkpoints that destroy tourism such as in Jericho.
    • Open policy of disproportial response to every reaction the Palestinians have.
    • Raid refugee camps and destroy their roads like in Jenin.
    • Kill journalists that cover the story such as Shireen Abu Akleh
    • Don’t even convict the murdered because he was a soldier.
    • Oh and kill/wound 5% of Gaza, half of which are children, for good measure.

    When people are suffocating because someone has their foot on their throat they react. Nobody should be surprised that Oct 7 happened. Especially after Israel was warned many times that they would do something if they continue raiding one of the holiest sites in Islam.

    source
• NMeneses@lemmings.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  As longs as inertia prevails in the world stage, sadly, I don’t see a near term future where a light might shine in the end of the tunnel for Palestine’s future.

  But if it serves a consolation, simmering tensions are purging therein the Netanyahu’s regime. His close allies aren’t aligned with the PM’s vision of the plausibility of defeat of Hamas (as if the Israel’s anger agains Palestine had anything to do with Hamas; it’s was a fallacious pretext).

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• nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  It will stop when they get everything from the nile to the euphrates river, also known as greater israel. The bible defines Israel as from the nile to the euphrates, they will not rest until they have “settled” the entire region

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  • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Who is exactly is making such claims?

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    • Abnorc@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      This guy in the comments.

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  • Aolley@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Sounds like the CCP approach to twain with the "but a ‘kingdom’ in the past had this territory so we are entitled to it.

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    • sparkle@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Even worse, because the Kingdom of Israel stopped existing 3000 years ago. Modern Israelis have zero connection to ancient Israel

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• Varyk@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Completely occupying Palestinian land has been the plan for over half a century.

  With this terrorist attack, Israel is trying to wrap it up.

  They could have completed their colonization under the guise of righteous vengeance, but:

  That now has very little chance of succeeding now because of three important factors 1) it’s taking much too long 2)they’re indisputably committing witnessed, recorded and shared war crimes and 3) the goodwill they’ve accumulated for 70 years as a stabilizing ally is wearing off pretty quickly.

  There’s more support for Palestine now than there has been with these same Israeli attacks occurring for the past 70 years.

  Palestine is officially recognized by 145 countries or so at this point.

  So, likely scenario is there’s going to be a ceasefire eventually and a similar paltry amount of land will be given to a nascent “official” Palestinian authority under the practical authority of Israel, which is not ideal, but it might actually result in the beginning of a two-state solution that’s been suggested since Israel became a country.

  In practical terms, Palestine getting a “country”, not much will change between Israel and Palestine because the establishment of Palestine doesn’t affect the fundamental religious conflict between the two.

  That’s where it looks like it’s headed.

  I hope I’m wrong and something better happens.

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  • Nougat@fedia.io ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Palestine being a wholly recognized nation with borders would make it so much easier for the world community to use its leverage on both Israel and Palestine for any of their shenanigans. As it stands now, it’s still arguably “an internal conflict.”

    That’s a lot different from “attacking a sovereign nation.”

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    • YourPrivatHater@ani.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Yeah but that will not happen because the “sovereign nations” government is Hamas and they did attack Israel…

      Hamas has the majority in Gaza and would get the majority in the other parts of the autonomous region Palestine in a election (wich is why the current government of this region is not doing elections)

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    • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      No it wouldn’t because the problem isn’t with borders, it’s with government. The Palestinian government has squandered every opportunity and has done everything it could to stop progress. Its Arab allies have been dedicated for decades to do everything in their power to act on the behalf and in the best interest of Palestine from going to wars to destroy Israel to islamic world organized boycotts and sanctions against Israel to diplomatic pressure on the west to do something to providing their own peace proposals to giving them arms to taking them in as refugees to giving them billions in humanitarian aid annually and the list goes on and on… But every time, their efforts blew up in their faces. There’s a reason why these countries are starting to recognize Israel.

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    • Varyk@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Exactly.

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  • gedaliyah@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Fact check: Israel left Gaza in 2005, removing all Israeli settlements and military installments.

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  • SleezyDizasta@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    You’re talking out of your ass. Israel has no plans to take over Gaza. They already had it and even had settlements there going back all the way before Israel gained its independence. But they voluntarily existed in 2005 in hopes of fostering peace with the Gazans… Instead the first thing they did was elect Hamas and commit terrorist attacks.

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• Colour_me_triggered@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Basically the situation in Israel/Palestine is that Hamas has pretty much total iron first control of Gaza, and Israel has a very right wing government. The Israelis have vowed to destroy Hamas entirely, but Hamas is deeply entrenched in every aspect of life in Gaza so what Israel is doing is actually pretty much the only way to rid the region of Hamas, but it comes at an extreme cost and involves a lot of war crimes.

  It probably is the only way to get rid of Hamas, but its going to cause so much resentment that peace in Gaza will be completely unattainable within your j or mine. But in short yes, they’re going to kill anyone with even loose ties to Hamas and if you’re a civil standing too close, oh well.

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• NoiseColor@startrek.website ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Israel can’t just overtake it. There is too many people there. They already tried that tactic for the last 30(?) years when gaza was a prison.

  I don’t think they know what they want and can even achieve in this campaign. I don’t think they will invade Lebanon.

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• Linkerbaan@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Israel wants to take over far more. They have litarally said they wanted to take over Turkey.

  This stops like how the Nazis were stopped from expanding their Lebensraum. By asking them very nicely to stop and explaining they are mean.

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• istanbullu@lemmy.ml ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Israel will try to kill every non-Jew in the Middle East. Their religion compels them.

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• NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Hmm... For a more realistic answer not necessarily. This isn't the first time they invaded Lebanon. I'm admittedly not aware of why they left the first time, but from what I know at least in the short term they're mostly content with the territory they currently control.

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• gedaliyah@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Lebanon (at least Hezbollah in Lebanon) began attacking Israel on Oct 8 in solidarity with Hamas. Things have gradually been escalating since then.

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• YourPrivatHater@ani.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Hopefully, there is no way in hell it can continue like it did for the last decades.

  And the thing about attacking Lebanon was just some rumors basically. Hezbolla is however constantly shooting rockets into residential areas and targeting hospitals. So i can see Israel continuing a cleanup there after the Hamas problem is solved.

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• StaySquared@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  It definitely cannot defeat Hezbollah. Much less combined with other parties, Hamas, Houthis, whatever is coming from Iraq. As far as I can tell… Israel has already lost. Mainstream media isn’t even providing its viewers/readers of the actual number of IDF casualties. It’s definitely not in the hundreds.

  Also, I have a feeling that Middle East nations will begin uniting, abandoning Western powers - their influences.

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• syd@lemy.lol ⁨5⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  There’s no reason for them to stop. No one standing against them. If I was them, I would do the same.

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• SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  I saw an article about them attacking Lebanon now.

  Hezbollah, not Lebanon. Please don’t legitimize terrorist groups by considering them to be the government of the country they operate in. Lebanon has elections, please support democracy and it’s not consider Hezbollah as Lebanon’s government, even if those psychopaths have control over a significant portion of the country.

  That being said, Nasrallah is probably under significant pressure to do something to help Hamas in some way. Last week he put out some threats against Israel. Israel put out counter threats. In all likelihood that’s where things will stay, neither side wants a war with the other.

  The media is always saying a war is imminent. Remember when they were claiming China was going to invade Taiwan any minute? There’s probably some outlets that’re still are saying that sometimes. It gets clicks, views, and ratings.

  Who knows they might be right this time (a stopped clock is right twice a day) but it seems doubtful.

  So, where will it stop?

  In terms of Gaza, Hamas is still holding Israeli hostages. It’s not going to stop as long as Hamas is holding Israelis hostage.

  Hamas is likely making a lot of money from the suffering of Palestinians. So they don’t have much incentive to release the hostage and put an end to the conflict.

  So it will continue on as the IDF goes house to house trying to find the people that Hamas took on October 7.

  Eventually either the IDF will find all of the hostages or Hamas will release them. Then it will end.

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• Dkarma@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Have you not read the Bible?

  Go read what they originally did to the Canaanites…they’re going to do it again.

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